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SAE Grade-8 bolt snapped @135ft/lbs

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UnAnswerd

Activity Terminated
Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Posts
607
I'm dealing with a critical application. If these fasteners fail, the results could potentially be fatal. I need maximum security. I've been torquing 1/2" grade-8 bolts to 135ft/lbs. Tonight, one of the bolts snapped in half while torquing. This made me rethink all the other bolts that I've been torquing to this spec. First, shouldn't a 1/2" grade-8 bolt withstand far more than 135ft/lbs??? If not, I need a general torque spec that will ensure proper bolt tension. Remember, if these bolts fail or come loose, the results will not be pretty.

Yes, I know that SAE bolts are not used on aircraft, but this isn't an aircraft application. I was however, hoping someone might know....
 
UnAnswerd said:
I'm dealing with a critical application. If these fasteners fail, the results could potentially be fatal. I need maximum security. I've been torquing 1/2" grade-8 bolts to 135ft/lbs. Tonight, one of the bolts snapped in half while torquing. This made me rethink all the other bolts that I've been torquing to this spec. First, shouldn't a 1/2" grade-8 bolt withstand far more than 135ft/lbs??? If not, I need a general torque spec that will ensure proper bolt tension. Remember, if these bolts fail or come loose, the results will not be pretty.

Yes, I know that SAE bolts are not used on aircraft, but this isn't an aircraft application. I was however, hoping someone might know....

Just use German torq specs.
 
General torque values:

Grade 8 1/2" dia course thread (13 threads per inch): 95-105 lb-ft
Grade 8 1/2" dia fine thread (20 threads per inch): 113-123 lb-ft

It might take the 135 but once you stretch a bolt beyond it's capacity it won't give you a proper torque reading leading you to keep tightening until you get it or break the bolt. Even if it doesn't break, the first good stress will probably snap it.
 
135 lb/ft isn't that outrageous, the gland nut on my vw is 150 lb/ft, requires a long bar and standing on it as the motor is locked to the bench.
 
Why are you using grade 8 bolts? Use AN hardware and you won't have that problem.

Doing your aircraft parts shopping at home depot, now?
 
avbug said:
Why are you using grade 8 bolts? Use AN hardware and you won't have that problem.

Why not use SAE grade-8 bolts??? A true grade-8 bolt will yield a tensile-strength of approximately 150,000psi. Though AN hardware may indeed have the same or better values, it is too expensive, not readily available, and quite frankly not even necessary for the application I'm dealing with.

avbug said:
Doing your aircraft parts shopping at home depot, now?

As I said before, this isn't for an aircraft. It's for a truck.
 
I'm dealing with a critical application. If these fasteners fail, the results could potentially be fatal. I need maximum security.


Gee, guess I made the mistake of listeing to you the first time around. Critical, could kill you, need maximum security. Sounds like a job for home depot to me.

Always look to the lowest bidder.

Incidentally, there is NO comparison between "grade 8" and AN or NAS hardware. Further, there is no uniform quality control or anything like standard order for grade 8 bolts. Yeah, they're supposed to conform or be capable of a particular standard, but don't bet on it. You get what you pay for (and sometimes not even that). Overtorque few and see how uniform they are in their capabilities, and how many will pop a head off before they shear...you may be surprised how low the standards really are, and how inconsistent.

But hey, it's only a "critical application" that could "be fatal," that requires "maximum security." It's only your truck. Do whatever you like. You're going to, anyway.
 
avbug said:
But hey, it's only a "critical application" that could "be fatal," that requires "maximum security." It's only your truck. Do whatever you like. You're going to, anyway.

All vehicle manufactures use SAE (or ASME) hardware, even in vital suspension components. I think it stands to reason that a true grade-8 bolt will be more than adequate in dealing with the loads imposed by my particular application. Your suggestion to use aircraft-type hardware is appreciated, but it remains my honest opinion that regular SAE hardware will be acceptable.
 
Yet it failed you, and you wanna know why, for your "critical" application which "could be fatal." And let's not forget, you didn't seek out an automotive forum, you asked the question in an aviation maintenance forum.

Now that I think about it, were you not the one who was arguementative to the point that several responsible posters on this site finally refused to communicate with you any further?

In fact, now that I think about it...I think one of them was me...
 
avbug said:
Now that I think about it, were you not the one who was arguementative to the point that several responsible posters on this site finally refused to communicate with you any further?

Go back and read the "accident" thread. I asked a simple question and was given Hell for it. As far as this thread, note that I only asked for a torque value, not which class of fastener to use. Again, your suggestion is appreciated, but it remains my belief that SAE hardware will suffice. The bolt in question may have failed for several reasons. General commercial fasteners have indeed been mismarked with SAE markings. So have aircraft bolts for that matter. I'm not arguing, just upholding my opinion. There is a difference....
 
I'm a little late, but my torque specs say 91 ft/lbs for unplated/silver plate, and 117 for plated (gold)
 
SAE Grade-8 bolt snapped

After reading all the above, it is obvious that for whatever reason, the originator has a reason that he'd rather use grade 8 (hardware store) bolts than something that may have more than enough tensile strength. "Shrug the shoulders" and go sideways around the tree. Use more of them (bolts) for the application that he's after. Assuming the application will allow it, use 2 or even 3 bolts instead of 1 to do whatever the job is. Less torque will be required as the load will be shared.
Think outside the box a bit.

Dave Danger
 
Dave,

I don't think it's so much about thinking outside any particular geometric pattern (love that expression about boxes, it should be the banner motto for yuppies everywhere) as a poster with an attitude and a short fuze.
 
Dave Danger said:
the originator has a reason that he'd rather use grade 8 (hardware store) bolts than something that may have more than enough tensile strength.


You cannot compare SAE fasteners to just any "hardware store" bolt. The truth is, each SAE grade is manufactured to meet certain tolerances. That's why these fasteners are widely used in the automotive industry to hold critical parts together. If they weren't made to specific tolerances, the auto manufactures wouldn't risk billions of dollars in lawsuits by using them.

The reason many people claim that SAE grades do not meet specific tolerances, is because sometime in the 1980's a very large volume of hardware was imported into the united states with false SAE markings. It remains a problem to this day. Regardless, if the appropriate paperwork can be furnished with purchase of SAE fasteners, they WILL meet specific tolerances. In the case of grade-8 hardware, it is a 150,000psi tensile-strength.
 
SAE provides "standards," but there is no quality control nor consistency in the parts. The FAA has put out numerous warnings about the use of Grade 8 hardware...weather or not one chooses to use this hardware on aircraft is beside the point; the warning is valid. The parts do not show consistency, which is why they're not approved for use on aircraft. If tensile strength were the only issue, they'd be fine, but there is no quality assurance in grade 8 hardware.

Again, do what you will for the critical operation upon which your life depends. Don't however try to hold out automotive standards as some high level of quality, because they're not. Automotive parts are made based on economy, and it's far easier to replace a defective cheap part in the automotive industry than manufactur higher quality equipment. Automotive standards are rough, often not overly exact. Rather than build a quality part for a car, usually the part is just built bigger.

Most of your hardware store bolts (or automotive store bolts, if you prefer) have tensile strengths closer to 60,000 PSI or less, with Grade 8 at a shear value of 91,000 psi and 150,000 ultimate (in theory), while AN bolts are 125,000 psi. Hardware store SAE bolts are mostly not corrosion resistant, and bend easily. AN bolts are nickle alloys, while SAE Grade 8 bolts are mild steel. AN bolts are more ductile, while SAE Grade 8 are more brittle. AN hardware and SAE hardware have very different thread load bearing properties and capabilities. AN, NAS, and MS bolts (aircraft grade hardware) are consistent in properties, qualities, and standard from lot to lot. SAE Grade 8 hardware is NOT. AN bolt threads are rolled after heat treating, whereas SAE are cut afterward.

All AN hardware has the same properties. Grade 8 hardware has vastly different properties that vary with manufacturer and lot number. Where the AN hardware is rolled, often the SAE Grade A threads are cut, and that's one of two places the bolts tend to break. Yours twisted off with torque, I believe. Did it twist off in the threads? The other place these tend to break is the head, owing both the britleness,and the inconsistency in radiusing the head and shank.

You'll note I listed alleged tensile strengths. Tensile strengths for SAE Grade 8 can only be approximated, due to the variance between lots. This is not the case for NAS, MS, or AN hardware, and that's a very important distinction.

You mumbled something about not confusing SAE hardware with hardware-store hardware. I don't want to burst your bubble (actually, I do), but hardware store hardware IS SAE. It may nor may not be Grade 8, as numerous grades exist, but all the standard bolts and sizes you find are SAE bolts...just with varying degrees and qualities of production. Grade 5 is SAE. So is Grade 8. Grade 5 has lower tensile strengths, but tends to bend more, is less brittle, and may actually do better than the Grade 8 in many cases. Of course, you need to specify weather you're after actual tensile strength (as in holding the threads or headof the bolt on) or shear strength. In either case, test out several examples purchased from different sources in the SAE, and you'll find numerous different failure points...showing clearly the lack of consistency in production.

You cannot compare SAE fasteners to just any "hardware store" bolt. The truth is, each SAE grade is manufactured to meet certain tolerances. That's why these fasteners are widely used in the automotive industry to hold critical parts together. If they weren't made to specific tolerances, the auto manufactures wouldn't risk billions of dollars in lawsuits by using them.

Actually yes, the hardware store bolts are SAE bolts. Not all grade 8, but still SAE...unless they're metric.

If they weren't made to specific tolerances, auto manufacturers wouldn't take the risk? No? Why do you suppose the FAA doesn't permit or authorize their use? Think about that a little before you reply.
 
Avbug,

There is no doubt that aircraft-class fasteners are superior. I never doubted that. All I'm contesting is that SAE grade-8 hardware will suffice for my particular application. Just as someone else said, I am using multiple fasteners at any given point of attachment. The failure of one fastener will not result in carnage, and the problem can be noted before the results are catastrophic.

I value your input, and trust in everything you say. But understand that I'm working on a truck suspension, not a Boeing 777 wing spar. Above all, I wouldn't do anything that might potentially become a hazard to myself or others. Trust in my judgment, and sleep at night knowing that I'm not building an airplane.
 
Avbug,

I wish to point out to you that construction
of things like skyscrapers are engineered
and built with SAE grade hardware. So are
American cars (excepting special applications).
There are standards, the bolted joints are
designed around the limitations of the minimum
standards for the sae bolts. They are also
avalible with different kinds of corrosion
protection from none to galvanized.

Unanswered...I seem to recall something about
a suspension project some months back. You
must be getting along with it.

Did you lube the bolts/threads??? Look back
at the chart. The waxed bolts only took about
45% of the torque of the dry bolts!

Is the bolted joint properly designed? (Is it
putting the bolts in shear rather than tension).
Were you using self locking nuts? The drag on
self locking nuts changes the torque value.

Are the bolt holes round, true and properly
aligned?

I bring these things up because a poorly designed
or built joint will fail even if you use Avbug's best
NAS close-tolerance high strength bolt.

Oh yeah...try to find a retailer that can provide
US manufactured hardware. That crap that is
getting over here from the people's enslavement
camp of China is not worth a rat's a$$
 
The chinese and the mexican hardware seems to be the worst. A lot of our hardware is Japanese and generally that's a good product and up to snuff.

I wish to point out to you that construction
of things like skyscrapers are engineered
and built with SAE grade hardware. So are
American cars (excepting special applications).
There are standards, the bolted joints are
designed around the limitations of the minimum
standards for the sae bolts. They are also
avalible with different kinds of corrosion
protection from none to galvanized.

Actually, a lot of large consutruction is welded, and often hardware other than SAE is used. To stipulate that SAE grade is used is rather simplistic, given that 8 different grades are in use, each with very different strengths and properties.

Most American cars use metric fasteners and threads, not SAE.

While true that many joints are designed to be secured by bolts manufactured to SAE standards, the truth is that many SAE "standard" parts are very inconsistent from lot to lot, and don't hold up. I've seen more than a few twist right off on automobiles...if you've worked around cars much, you'll know this, too.

Did you lube the bolts/threads??? Look back
at the chart. The waxed bolts only took about
45% of the torque of the dry bolts!

Lube Torque is always a critical consideration in any torque application. The publications detailing the particular installation should always specify if the torques are applied wet, or dry, and generally what is to be used for the lube torque.
 
SAE grade 8 fasteners will work great for truck suspension, It just looks like you were torquing them alittle tight. I don't think that anyone uses aircraft grade bolts on trucks. End of story, next thread?
 
I don't think that anyone uses aircraft grade bolts on trucks. End of story, next thread?

I do. I also use it on the lawn mower.

All that hardware that comes off the airplane has to go somewhere!
 
Ok, I stand corrected. At least you are not buying av grade fasteners for the high performance lawn slicer!!
 

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