Sabreliner Question

[falcondriver]

This is not a flame on Sabreliner's. I got the chance to fly one last week. He called it a 604 (I think). The technology seemed really crude compared to Falcon 20's built the same time. Are all the Sabreliner's like that?? I have nothing to judge it by, it is the only Sabreliner I've ever been in....
FD

 

[leardvr]

sabreliner

It wouldn't have been a 604; maybe a 40, 60,65, 75, or 80. The 65 was the "newest" with turbofans (TFE731's). Yes the technology is crude. The '65 was a new a/c in 1980 based on a design from the '50's. The Sabreliner is a great a/c, it was built by North American and was the first MIL spec jet along with the Jet Star. It predates Lears. All the technology on the first one's was still in use on the latter ones. I flew NA265-002 (a Sabre 65 S?N 2!!) we would get new parts in the box that had build dates in the 1950's and 60's. Everthing is relays and timers. Nothing ever broke in the a/c, if it did turn off the power and the relay would usally reset itself. If it didn't you could go back to the relay panal and "tap" (read kick) the relay and it would unstick.

We flew ours all the time at FL410&430 and even FL450 if it was ISA or colder. Went to Europe and S. America many times in it.

Sure do miss that airplane. It was ugly to look at but it got the job done everytime.

http://www.sabreliner.com/aircraft.html

 

[Ty Webb]

Easy there, Sparky!

Let me get this straight . . . . you say that you "flew" an airplane that you "think" was a Sabreliner, but you don't really know what it was . . . you "think" that it might have been a 604 (which is a Challenger designator, not a Sabreliner designator).

Sounds to me like you need to review Part 61.55, to say the least.

What the hell are you doing serving as a required crewmember in an aircraft that you don't even know WHAT it was, let alone have the required knowlege about the aircraft?

Sounds to me like your professionalism is much cruder than the systems of the airplane you were "flying".

 

[avbug]

My first corporate job was in a Sabre 60. I flew, and was also assigned as director of mx.

The airframe is a corrosion nightmare. It has nothing to do with the environment, or the maintenance; it's the environment. The airplane was designed from 7075-T6 aluminum alloy, which often suffered in the heat treatment, and developed severe intergranular corrosion. North American, Rockwell, et al, elected to use very poor coatings internally which only contributed to the corrosion problems.

It has the singular toughest wing ever built. The wing was also the first built which was certified for known ice, without any form of deice.

The 65 has an entirely different wing.

The JT-12's are relatively bulletproof, and even legendary for their ability to suck FOD and still run.

The nosegear is a nightmare to rig, electrically speaking, and far more complex than it need be.

The speed brake is wonderful. The door sucks, and has cut off or crushed more than a few fingers. The faildown electrical is great from a pilot perspective, but the electrical diagraming and use is nonstandard, and unnecessarily complex. The single point refueling system was never a good design.

The main gear cants in, and wears very unevenly. On the average, to get any use out of the tires, they must be rotated every 10 landings, or so. Even taxi is hard on them. This isn't something a pilot would likely notice, but let me tell you, after jacking the airplane and hand rotating those wheels every few days, it severely sucks backwater.

The Sabre was an okay airplane, but the Lear was an ascent to heaven, by comparison.

 

[falcondriver]

Whatever Ty Webb
FD

 

[falcondriver]

Ty Webb
what are part 91 requirements for filling a seat in a Sabre?
FD

 

[Ty Webb]

61.55 61.57

Pretty clear . . . . .

 

[falcondriver]

If you don't know, then just say so.
FD

 

[leardvr]

Well folks you can fight this out all you want; here is 61.55. I don't think that sec. (a)&(b)1 are that hard to meet, sec. (b)2 might be harder to prove. But look at (d)3&4 as well as (e)&(f) which are the get out of jail free cards. My $.02 is that you should at least know what kind of a/c your setting in though. Maybe it was dark.



Back to Index of Part 61 - Back to Federal Aviation Regulations Home
Sec. 61.55 - Second-in-command qualifications.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person holds:
(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes --
(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.
(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.
(d) This section does not apply to a person who is:
(1) Designated and qualified as a pilot in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(2) Designated as the second in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter, in that specific type of aircraft;
(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or
(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(e) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:
(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and
(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(f) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:
(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and
(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(h) An applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft who is qualifying under the terms of paragraph (g) of this section must satisfactorily complete a minimum of one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought.

 

[RightPedal]

Know what I say...





That book wouldn't even make a good fire...





After all Illegal is just a sick Bird!!!!!





Fly it till you Tie it!!!

D