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Sabreliner 65 info
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I will be happy to answer your questions on the Sabre 65.
I have around 1,500 hours in the 65 and enjoyed flying the aircraft very much. It is one of those aircraft that make an average pilot look exceptional. Hand flying the aircraft is very easy, in the high altitude region as well on approach. Now I do not make it a practice to hand fly any aircraft at high altitude, however, we did have the auto-pilot fail (only time in 6 years) on a 5 day trip in an area that we could not get any maintenance performed. We just rested our elbows on the armrest and had no problem even at 41.0.
For its age the 65 is fast. In the winter months in the mid 30’s flight levels you can cruise at .83-84, however not on max range mission profile, any legs more than 1,800 NM you need to keep the speed around .80. For 2,000 NM or over you need to use the Long Range Cruise Profile, starting at .76 in the high 30’s and ending up at .70 at 41.0 or 43.0.
The prices of 65’s are very reasonable currently running around 2.5 million for a very nice one. Currently there are 17 on the market. Parts are still very plentiful through Saberliner Inc., AV Mats and other companies. However, the prices are slowly increasing due to the 65’s age.
On the 65 I operated and flew we could carry 4 passengers with normal baggage and full fuel, unless operating off of runways of 6,000 feet or less with ISA plus 15 temps. My 65 did not have an APU; an APU will cost you one passenger weight wise.
Okay, now for the less than positive attributes of the 65.
The passenger cabin is small, no getting around that. Baggage capacity is very limited if carrying more than 4 passengers. If your passenger load average is around 3 passengers you should have no problem.
High and hot airports. You really need to watch yourself when operating out of places like Aspen in the summer. Sometimes you will have to leave early in the morning or just before sunset to be able to carry any kind of load out of high and hot airports.
The difference between the way the 65 performs during the summer and winter is like night and day. A fellow 65 pilot probably had the best statement regarding this difference. “We got our 65 at the start of summer, it did an okay job, but just not what I was expecting. Then the winter came and on the first takeoff I thought someone had installed afterburners on the engines.” If you buy a 65 with 3-D engines it will help the high OAT problem quite a bit. 3-D engine will not, repeat not improve takeoff performance. Now the 3-D engines do improve takeoff performance, I know it, other operators with 3-D engines know it and so does Sabreliner, but there are no performance figures to support the improved performance. Where the 3-D engines do greatly help is climb, initial altitude and speed in ISA + conditions.
Okay, now for probably the worse thing about operating the 65. Maintenance. The newest 65 is over 26 years old. They are going to break down, that’s a fact. You really need a full time mechanic and a good supply of spare parts in stock. Sabreliner Inc. can provide you with an excellent parts list. Corrosion problems, the 65 is not required to have the 10,000 hour corrosion inspection that other Sabreliners are required to have performed. There are corrosion inspections on the 65, however, none as invasive as the 10,000 hour inspection. Sabreliner has found very little corrosion on any 65.
If you do decide to purchase a 65 here are my recommendations.
Age and high serial numbers are not that important when comparing 65s. All were built is a 2 year period, from 1980 to 1981. A total of 76 were built, 73 are still operating, the other 3 crashed.
Total time is very important, lower the better. MSP is very important, do not purchase a 65 not on MSP, in case you are not aware of this all 731 engines on MSP will be modified to 3-D eventually. (This is true for all aircraft with 731s, not just the Sabre 65.)
Maintenance records are very important, as for all aircraft at this age. The better the maintenance records are kept the better the airframe was kept, this is common sense.
Avionics update. Try to find one with newest updates rather than buying one and updating it yourself. You never get your money back when you update an old airframe. (Okay before someone jumps on me, there are exception, but darn few and not concerning Sabre 65s.) As far as I know all 65s are RVSM equipped and certified, however, make sure that the aircraft is ICAO RVSM certified, not just domestic.
Try and purchase a 65 that does have the 3-D engine mod. If you cannot find a 65 with 3-D engines get with the MSP program people and they can probably tell you what engines would be best to look for to modify to 3-D for the least amount of money.
Try to find one with an APU, yes it does cost you a little in weight but the APU is well worth the weight penalty.
Now for a summary on the 65. For the price, around 2.5 million or less, you will have an airplane with an honest 2,200 NM range (zero wind, but I would not take it to Hawaii) with 3 to 4 passengers. An aircraft that will cruise at .80 to .84 on trips of less than 1,200 NM with 6 to 7 passengers (if you’re carrying 7 passengers they better be good friends). The operational cost per hour will run anywhere from $ 1,000.00 to $1,300.00 an hour.
So, not a bad aircraft to consider purchasing and operating.
If you have any more questions please feel free to ask me here or PM me.
Good luck.
I have around 1,500 hours in the 65 and enjoyed flying the aircraft very much. It is one of those aircraft that make an average pilot look exceptional. Hand flying the aircraft is very easy, in the high altitude region as well on approach. Now I do not make it a practice to hand fly any aircraft at high altitude, however, we did have the auto-pilot fail (only time in 6 years) on a 5 day trip in an area that we could not get any maintenance performed. We just rested our elbows on the armrest and had no problem even at 41.0.
For its age the 65 is fast. In the winter months in the mid 30’s flight levels you can cruise at .83-84, however not on max range mission profile, any legs more than 1,800 NM you need to keep the speed around .80. For 2,000 NM or over you need to use the Long Range Cruise Profile, starting at .76 in the high 30’s and ending up at .70 at 41.0 or 43.0.
The prices of 65’s are very reasonable currently running around 2.5 million for a very nice one. Currently there are 17 on the market. Parts are still very plentiful through Saberliner Inc., AV Mats and other companies. However, the prices are slowly increasing due to the 65’s age.
On the 65 I operated and flew we could carry 4 passengers with normal baggage and full fuel, unless operating off of runways of 6,000 feet or less with ISA plus 15 temps. My 65 did not have an APU; an APU will cost you one passenger weight wise.
Okay, now for the less than positive attributes of the 65.
The passenger cabin is small, no getting around that. Baggage capacity is very limited if carrying more than 4 passengers. If your passenger load average is around 3 passengers you should have no problem.
High and hot airports. You really need to watch yourself when operating out of places like Aspen in the summer. Sometimes you will have to leave early in the morning or just before sunset to be able to carry any kind of load out of high and hot airports.
The difference between the way the 65 performs during the summer and winter is like night and day. A fellow 65 pilot probably had the best statement regarding this difference. “We got our 65 at the start of summer, it did an okay job, but just not what I was expecting. Then the winter came and on the first takeoff I thought someone had installed afterburners on the engines.” If you buy a 65 with 3-D engines it will help the high OAT problem quite a bit. 3-D engine will not, repeat not improve takeoff performance. Now the 3-D engines do improve takeoff performance, I know it, other operators with 3-D engines know it and so does Sabreliner, but there are no performance figures to support the improved performance. Where the 3-D engines do greatly help is climb, initial altitude and speed in ISA + conditions.
Okay, now for probably the worse thing about operating the 65. Maintenance. The newest 65 is over 26 years old. They are going to break down, that’s a fact. You really need a full time mechanic and a good supply of spare parts in stock. Sabreliner Inc. can provide you with an excellent parts list. Corrosion problems, the 65 is not required to have the 10,000 hour corrosion inspection that other Sabreliners are required to have performed. There are corrosion inspections on the 65, however, none as invasive as the 10,000 hour inspection. Sabreliner has found very little corrosion on any 65.
If you do decide to purchase a 65 here are my recommendations.
Age and high serial numbers are not that important when comparing 65s. All were built is a 2 year period, from 1980 to 1981. A total of 76 were built, 73 are still operating, the other 3 crashed.
Total time is very important, lower the better. MSP is very important, do not purchase a 65 not on MSP, in case you are not aware of this all 731 engines on MSP will be modified to 3-D eventually. (This is true for all aircraft with 731s, not just the Sabre 65.)
Maintenance records are very important, as for all aircraft at this age. The better the maintenance records are kept the better the airframe was kept, this is common sense.
Avionics update. Try to find one with newest updates rather than buying one and updating it yourself. You never get your money back when you update an old airframe. (Okay before someone jumps on me, there are exception, but darn few and not concerning Sabre 65s.) As far as I know all 65s are RVSM equipped and certified, however, make sure that the aircraft is ICAO RVSM certified, not just domestic.
Try and purchase a 65 that does have the 3-D engine mod. If you cannot find a 65 with 3-D engines get with the MSP program people and they can probably tell you what engines would be best to look for to modify to 3-D for the least amount of money.
Try to find one with an APU, yes it does cost you a little in weight but the APU is well worth the weight penalty.
Now for a summary on the 65. For the price, around 2.5 million or less, you will have an airplane with an honest 2,200 NM range (zero wind, but I would not take it to Hawaii) with 3 to 4 passengers. An aircraft that will cruise at .80 to .84 on trips of less than 1,200 NM with 6 to 7 passengers (if you’re carrying 7 passengers they better be good friends). The operational cost per hour will run anywhere from $ 1,000.00 to $1,300.00 an hour.
So, not a bad aircraft to consider purchasing and operating.
If you have any more questions please feel free to ask me here or PM me.
Good luck.
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My limited experience with the airplane was good. I only flew the 65. It has about 2400 nm range if I remember correctly. My longest leg was from Vancouver, WA to Atlanta. We typically cruised at .78 for fuel efficiency. BTW, the airplane is very fast down low (340 kias to be exact).
Training is at FSI in St. Louis and it is ok. But not the best FSI has to offer. Most of the instructors are pretty old and decrepid.
It was very reliable. This was a good thing because getting parts are hard. It also took some trouble to find a mechanic to work on it. We even offered to send someone to school. But there just are'nt that many sabres around. So many times you end up in Perryville, MO. Which in all honesty sucks. You will hear some horror stories about corrosion. This may be true but I never flew one that had any history of it.
The baggage area is in the cabin and can be a pain to lug the bags up the stairs. It also gets in the way of the aisle between the cockpit and cabin. But it's doable.
The kicker is you can get one of these airplanes for like 2.5 mil or less. Which I belive is the best deal out there when you consider range, capacity, comfort, and speed. It kicks Citation where it hurts.
If you have any specific questions let me know. I have a manual and maybe a checklist if you want them.
Training is at FSI in St. Louis and it is ok. But not the best FSI has to offer. Most of the instructors are pretty old and decrepid.
It was very reliable. This was a good thing because getting parts are hard. It also took some trouble to find a mechanic to work on it. We even offered to send someone to school. But there just are'nt that many sabres around. So many times you end up in Perryville, MO. Which in all honesty sucks. You will hear some horror stories about corrosion. This may be true but I never flew one that had any history of it.
The baggage area is in the cabin and can be a pain to lug the bags up the stairs. It also gets in the way of the aisle between the cockpit and cabin. But it's doable.
The kicker is you can get one of these airplanes for like 2.5 mil or less. Which I belive is the best deal out there when you consider range, capacity, comfort, and speed. It kicks Citation where it hurts.
If you have any specific questions let me know. I have a manual and maybe a checklist if you want them.
blzr
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- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
Na, go se Butch at Avmats. St louis is a better place to stick out a 3 day inspection. They are also alot more reasonable in the pocketbook.
You can go out and but a $8-10M jet that will look real purdy out there on the ramp and have (??) external baggage, maybe an APU too. It's all what you want. If the boss likes to travel light and doesn't have $$$ to burn, then the -65 would be the ticket. Ours, #63, is about the nicest one I have flown. It is going to break, but if you are not to hard on the landings and reverse, they seem to just keep going and going.
For $1300/hour with MSP, which, by the way, is totally the way to go. Basically you own the airframe and lease the engines, which leaves you a lot less exposed on costs.
.80 just about anytime above fl250 and long legs too. Great in cold wx, but not so great in Eagle/Vail in july. Even JAC is a stretch in the summer months. Once you get used to it, however, you will love it.
I give it 3 7/8 stars out of 5....
You can go out and but a $8-10M jet that will look real purdy out there on the ramp and have (??) external baggage, maybe an APU too. It's all what you want. If the boss likes to travel light and doesn't have $$$ to burn, then the -65 would be the ticket. Ours, #63, is about the nicest one I have flown. It is going to break, but if you are not to hard on the landings and reverse, they seem to just keep going and going.
For $1300/hour with MSP, which, by the way, is totally the way to go. Basically you own the airframe and lease the engines, which leaves you a lot less exposed on costs.
.80 just about anytime above fl250 and long legs too. Great in cold wx, but not so great in Eagle/Vail in july. Even JAC is a stretch in the summer months. Once you get used to it, however, you will love it.
I give it 3 7/8 stars out of 5....
Been flying a 65 for over 3 years and agree with everything above. We do many one hour trips @ 19,000# (or less) and it's a blast to fly. Sometimes we need to fly @24.000# and it's a different aircraft at that weight. I guess anything would be.
When our seats are full it's a short day trip. On most RON's only 2 to4 in back so the size is great for us. The baggage compartment is at the door, so it's very easy to load luggage in and out. No sending it to the back as in the Lear 30 series.
We are MSP gold. They put DEEC's on at our MPI. The way I understand is that at CZI they will upgrade to -3D. No charge if we continue with present MSP rate. If you want the reduced -3D MSP rate then you must pay for the upgrade.
We sent our mechanic to FSI and do about 80% of our maintenance in house. Our Sabre has under 6,000 hours and we have had no major problems other than 2 windshields. We get 90 to 115 landings on the main tires and over 300 on brakes. We are on CAMP and do some type of maintenance cards every month. Our mechanic likes working on this aircraft as compaired to the Citation.
Hope this helps,
HEADWIND
When our seats are full it's a short day trip. On most RON's only 2 to4 in back so the size is great for us. The baggage compartment is at the door, so it's very easy to load luggage in and out. No sending it to the back as in the Lear 30 series.
We are MSP gold. They put DEEC's on at our MPI. The way I understand is that at CZI they will upgrade to -3D. No charge if we continue with present MSP rate. If you want the reduced -3D MSP rate then you must pay for the upgrade.
We sent our mechanic to FSI and do about 80% of our maintenance in house. Our Sabre has under 6,000 hours and we have had no major problems other than 2 windshields. We get 90 to 115 landings on the main tires and over 300 on brakes. We are on CAMP and do some type of maintenance cards every month. Our mechanic likes working on this aircraft as compaired to the Citation.
Hope this helps,
HEADWIND
ultrarunner
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What's the fuel per hour and msp per hour budget? I would think those to items alone eat up 1300 bucks pretty quick.
blzr
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No, that's about it. $400/hr MSP and $900 first hour in gas and goes down from there.
We do not include pilots in the $1200-1300/hr. Also, we use hangar fuel which is about $2.70/gal at our hangar. If you are flying out of Signature KMKE with their rediculous $5.83/gal Jet-A your cost could be alot more.
If you are looking for a good Sabre-65, there is one in our hangar for sale. Price,???, somewhere between 1.8M and 2.4M. P.M. me if you need any details.
ultrarunner
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Well, I suppose if you only include fuel and msp as your "operating cost per hour figure" you're pretty close.
But to say that someone is going to be able to operate that nearly 30 year old airplane for only fuel and MSP is slightly misleading
rubicon789
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Ok, I have a few questions regarding the Sabreliner 65.
1.) I was just looking over some the the FS materials and their checklists are horriable. At least from what I am used to "AirNet" checklists. Are there any guy's out there that have something that has more flow too it. The checklists I am used to are much easier to follow with flows and very easy to use.
2.) What is a good target setting for 250KIAS?
3.) Fully configed, to maintain Vref what is a good target setting.
Coming from the LR35 I would think most numbers will be very similar or close, but just looking for some info from you guy's that have experience with the 65, as I have none.
Any other things I should know about it. Other then make sure it's not rusting
1.) I was just looking over some the the FS materials and their checklists are horriable. At least from what I am used to "AirNet" checklists. Are there any guy's out there that have something that has more flow too it. The checklists I am used to are much easier to follow with flows and very easy to use.
2.) What is a good target setting for 250KIAS?
3.) Fully configed, to maintain Vref what is a good target setting.
Coming from the LR35 I would think most numbers will be very similar or close, but just looking for some info from you guy's that have experience with the 65, as I have none.
Any other things I should know about it. Other then make sure it's not rusting
lazyace75
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- Jan 23, 2006
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1. Yes, I made my own on MS Word by going through the airplane the way it was configured.
2. 250 KIAS??? Not sure what you mean there but assuming below 10,000' and in level flight. 750-800pph fuel flow will be right on the money to keep 250 straight and level.
3. Just like most other fan engines, 60%-65% N1 should be close. Around 700-800pph on the fuel burn.
Overall a great airplane to fly.
rubicon789
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Thanks for the reply.
1.) Do you have a copy of your word version?
2.) Yes I meant for level flight below 10k, sorry I should have been more specific
Thanks for the help.
blzr
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I have a checklist I can send you. P.M. me an address and I would be happy to send it.
Below 10K, I set about 70% N1 clean. Flaps 10 is about 80%. Also, using fuel flow will work too. Do you know if you have newer fuel computers (DECS) or the old computer? Your fuel flows will differ depending on which one you have, although not by much.
All said, it's a blast to fly.
Below 10K, I set about 70% N1 clean. Flaps 10 is about 80%. Also, using fuel flow will work too. Do you know if you have newer fuel computers (DECS) or the old computer? Your fuel flows will differ depending on which one you have, although not by much.
All said, it's a blast to fly.
Last edited:
rubicon789
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PM Sent Thanks...
Yea it's DEC'd and geeked... I figured 70% would probably be a good balllpark. In the 35 70-72% was money. Thanks again.
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