*************************s: What's the deal...

[Flight_Line]

Question answered. This thread is done.

 

[rtmcfi]

Question answered, thread done.

 

[Flight_Line]

Ok, thanks for the reply. Consider this thread dead!

Edit: Mods, if any of you want to get rid of this thread please feel free. My question has been answered.

 

[rtmcfi]

....threads done........

 

[qxpilot27]

The problem with this operation is you have guys bringing down the industry by working for lousy wages and work rules. The are bypassing existing carriers and their pilot contracts to fly a shiny new jets and get a quick upgrade. When people like this continue to work for companies like ho jets, it gives other airlines the idea that they can pull off an alter ego carrier too. Where will it stop? Before you know it, we will all get sucked into this crap. Some guys need to see the big picture and get on with a respectable airline so we can put a stop to this sh!t.

 

[elcapitan]

It is pretty much the same as the Mesa/Freedom thing. Same sort of scumbags under the skin.....

Pretty much you are wrong and you are just out to flamebait and do some mudslinging. You are way off base and you don't understand their situation at all. You don't know the facts or what happened at all.

Freedom was created to be a non-union carrier because JO did not like unions. GJ was not formed as a non-union carrier. It was started because TSA was limited to 50-seats per the APA Scope clause. I don't think Hulas the K would have spent all that money to start up another airline unless he had to. GJ is a separate airline as opposed to Freedom which was not found to be a separate airline from MESA. It is all in the the National Mediation Board ruling which you can read for yourself. If GJ had not been found to be a separate airline they would be paying fines to APA just like Republic had to. This minor detail cost them about 1 million dollars a month. Ask any American pilot about the nice check they got from the fines for the violation of their scope clause. I bet B.B. could not sleep at night with that much money going out the door. It probably really cut into his bonus. It is tough trying to scrape by on 600,000 per year.

 

[h25b]

The problem with this operation is you have guys bringing down the industry by working for lousy wages and work rules. The are bypassing existing carriers and their pilot contracts to fly a shiny new jets and get a quick upgrade. When people like this continue to work for companies like ho jets, it gives other airlines the idea that they can pull off an alter ego carrier too. Where will it stop? Before you know it, we will all get sucked into this crap. Some guys need to see the big picture and get on with a respectable airline so we can put a stop to this sh!t.

You pretty much just described every prospective regional airline new hire and every single regional airline. Maybe you could tell us all exactly which regional airline is "respectable" and doesn't have "lousy wages and work rules" because it's getting pretty hard to figure it all out these days.

For crying out loud, the single most asked questions on this board are, "how long is the upgrade ?" or "how many jets are they getting?"

 

[Turkey Shoot]

Pretty much you are wrong and you are just out to flamebait and do some mudslinging. You are way off base and you don't understand their situation at all. You don't know the facts or what happened at all.

Freedom was created to be a non-union carrier because JO did not like unions. GJ was not formed as a non-union carrier. It was started because TSA was limited to 50-seats per the APA Scope clause. I don't think Hulas the K would have spent all that money to start up another airline unless he had to. GJ is a separate airline as opposed to Freedom which was not found to be a separate airline from MESA. It is all in the the National Mediation Board ruling which you can read for yourself. If GJ had not been found to be a separate airline they would be paying fines to APA just like Republic had to. This minor detail cost them about 1 million dollars a month. Ask any American pilot about the nice check they got from the fines for the violation of their scope clause. I bet B.B. could not sleep at night with that much money going out the door. It probably really cut into his bonus. It is tough trying to scrape by on 600,000 per year.

G0Jetter?? I got $20says he is. Exactly how they were saying this during the interview process to get you guys in the door. I've talked with a few guys over there who didn't know what the deal was but realized about two weeks into ground school they had been had.

I know early on in this deal it wasn't too widely known what was going on there so there are some that were manipulated but the guys that went over from TSA are only trying to skirt the seniority system in attempt to byp*************** their fellow employees who had put up with The Howlin' Hindu longer.

Look, I am all about myself. My family comes before my company and MY FELLOW PILOTS! But this was a pretty sh1tty thing to do. I know there will be some guys who will slip through without this affecting their career but there will be others who will have their move affect them. In my mind it does show a lack of judgment and integrity. Very simply, someone who may not make good disicions in the cockpit and has a disregard for good morale. Both would give me cause for concern.

 

[elcapitan]

No, I am just tired of people not knowing the facts and spreading hatred and innuendo for a situation they just dont understand.

Fact 1. GJet was created to meet the United Express Contract for 70-Seaters.

Fact 2. TSA could not fly those jets because they are limited to 50-seats per the APA scope.

Fact 3. ALPA Challenged the formation of Freedom Air and the NMB Ruled that it was not a separate airline.

Fact 4: ALPA Challenged the formation of GJet and the NMB Ruled that they were separate airlines.

Fact 5: The NMB ruled that since they were separate and distinct airlines the Gjets pilots could organize with any union and that included ALPA.

Fact 6: If TSA had tried to fly those airplanes or ALPA had won the ruling that GJet was not a separate airline then TSAH would be fined about 1 million dollars a month.

Fact 6: TSA being a union airline had to negotiate for the pilot lists of the two separate airlines to be merged under one list.

Fact 7: The TSA pilot MEC negotiated a TA with TSAH management to merge the pilot lists with the GJets pilots on the bottom of the seniority list.
The TSA pilot group voted NO to this agreement.

Fact 8: The Gjet pilot group voted in the Teamsters union to represent them.


I seriously don't know how you equate anything that went on there with "moral" character and "integrity". That someone can't make good decisions in the cockpit. I think this is a very far stretch. Based on the facts above to equate this situation as the "downfall" of the whole industry also doesn't make any sense.

 

[WateryGrave]

Scumbag......... see its still alive people!

No, I am just tired of people not knowing the facts and spreading hatred and innuendo for a situation they just dont understand.

Fact 1. GJet was created to meet the United Express Contract for 70-Seaters.

Fact 2. TSA could not fly those jets because they are limited to 50-seats per the APA scope.

Fact 3. ALPA Challenged the formation of Freedom Air and the NMB Ruled that it was not a separate airline.

Fact 4: ALPA Challenged the formation of GJet and the NMB Ruled that they were separate airlines.

Fact 5: The NMB ruled that since they were separate and distinct airlines the Gjets pilots could organize with any union and that included ALPA.

Fact 6: If TSA had tried to fly those airplanes or ALPA had won the ruling that GJet was not a separate airline then TSAH would be fined about 1 million dollars a month.

Fact 6: TSA being a union airline had to negotiate for the pilot lists of the two separate airlines to be merged under one list.

Fact 7: The TSA pilot MEC negotiated a TA with TSAH management to merge the pilot lists with the GJets pilots on the bottom of the seniority list.
The TSA pilot group voted NO to this agreement.

Fact 8: The Gjet pilot group voted in the Teamsters union to represent them.


I seriously don't know how you equate anything that went on there with "moral" character and "integrity". That someone can't make good decisions in the cockpit. I think this is a very far stretch. Based on the facts above to equate this situation as the "downfall" of the whole industry also doesn't make any sense.

 

[h25b]

I seriously don't know how you equate anything that went on there with "moral" character and "integrity".

You don't ??? Well let me explain it to you because I think I finally have it figured out.

You see they have to see it this way because if they handled it any other way they'd have to admit that they simply just f'd up the negotiations and would have to blame their union/themselves. Bottom line is they didn't learn anything from the CHQ pilots. The CHQ pilots realized they'd have to take less than stellar payrates to secure the Republic flying and simply put, the TSA pilots didn't feel such a sacrifice was worth it...

 

[Turkey Shoot]

You obviously didn't read my post. I know the facts. I was there. This was an attempt to get rid of that peice of work known as DM. If you are around, you know these things. There is no reason TSA guys couldn't have moved over and flown those planes. Had DM not been the antagonist he is, the flying would be done by guys on the TSA list and this never would have been an issue.

But if you think you're safe since you voted in Teamsters, it doesn't mean squat to the company. If TSH thinks they will get a leg up on the pilot group, you'll be merged in a New York minute.

And yes, it is a judgment issue. Poor judgment in the fact that a person is taking a chance (nothing certain this will come to pass) of putting up a large hurdle in his or her path to move on just to get to the left seat a year earlier. To me that demonstrates a lack of good judgment.

I am very moderate on this issue but the more I hear the GJ barking about how what they have done is the best thing for everybody really takes me back. Just be humble and thankful for the job and you'll get no bones from me about it. It's done for now.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I would hardly call 6 years of relentlessly trying to protect TSA pilots, being an "antagonist." The reality is that the TA was destined to fail the minute the company went out and tried like hell to get it passed.

TSA pilots are not stupid and they made the right decision.

 

[h25b]

TSA pilots are not stupid and they made the right decision.

No arguement here... But you can't have it both ways. You are either for the collective bargaining process or you aren't. You get what you negotiate. You couldn't negotiate the 70 seat flying, so you don't get it. If you weren't able to come to terms with the company it is no other pilots' fault but your own.

TSA holdings had to obtain another operating certificate which allowed them to have bargaining power. No one can say they started the other certificate soley to screw the TSA pilots. It just so happens that this one just one of the benefits that came from it. Also exactly what happened to the CHQ pilots.

 

[redbook]

No arguement here... But you can't have it both ways. You are either for the collective bargaining process or you aren't. You get what you negotiate. You couldn't negotiate the 70 seat flying, so you don't get it. If you weren't able to come to terms with the company it is no other pilots' fault but your own.

TSA holdings had to obtain another operating certificate which allowed them to have bargaining power. No one can say they started the other certificate soley to screw the TSA pilots. It just so happens that this one just one of the benefits that came from it. Also exactly what happened to the CHQ pilots.

speaking out of both sides of your mouth yet again.

Couldn't come to terms? They gave us an ultimatum. We chose to fight. Unified. (75% of what pilot group has voted no in the last few years?) Part of that fight involves getting the truth out about the whipsaw created by g0jet and the scumbags who staff it or defend it. (which is one and the same)

 

[h25b]

speaking out of both sides of your mouth yet again.

Couldn't come to terms? They gave us an ultimatum. We chose to fight. Unified. (75% of what pilot group has voted no in the last few years?) Part of that fight involves getting the truth out about the whipsaw created by g0jet and the scumbags who staff it or defend it. (which is one and the same)

Again you're unable to directly refute any part of my arguement. Bottom line, you got what you negotiated, you chose to "fight" and lost. Now get over it.

 

[redbook]

Again you're unable to directly refute any part of my arguement. Bottom line, you got what you negotiated, you chose to "fight" and lost. Now get over it.

No thank you management/g0jet pilots, We will not "get over it".

 

[h25b]

No thank you management/g0jet pilots, We will not "get over it".

Good luck with that strategy, it's worked out so well for you so far....

 

[redbook]

Again you're unable to directly refute any part of my arguement. Bottom line, you got what you negotiated, you chose to "fight" and lost. Now get over it.

By your logic we should have "gotten over " Pearl Harbor. No thanks.

 

[redbook]

Good luck with that strategy, it's worked out so well for you so far....

thanks for your support. Some things take a little time. We will see it through.

 

[h25b]

By your logic we should have "gotten over " Pearl Harbor. No thanks.

Forgotten ??? NO Got over it ??? Yeah, I believe we have. Last time I checked most of us were driving Japanese cars. So I believe we've gotten over it, we just haven't forgotten. Have you been to Hawaii ??? For crying out loud it's overrun by Japanese tourists.

 

[redbook]

Forgotten ??? NO Got over it ??? Yeah, I believe we have. Last time I checked most of us were driving Japanese cars. So I believe we've gotten over it, we just haven't forgotten.

Once the g0jet pilots are kicked to the curb or stapled to the tsah seniority list, and the company has worked out a fair deal with the tsa pilots, we will be happy to "drive" g0jet airplanes and and "get over it".

No sooner, despite your wishing it would be.

 

[Lav Service]

Originally posted by h25b: You see they have to see it this way because if they handled it any other way they'd have to admit that they simply just f'd up the negotiations and would have to blame their union/themselves. Bottom line is they didn't learn anything from the CHQ pilots. The CHQ pilots realized they'd have to take less than stellar payrates to secure the Republic flying and simply put, the TSA pilots didn't feel such a sacrifice was worth it...

This comment implies that YOU and CHQ both came to the same correct realization while TSA did not. This is for future reference for you and your fellow GJ employees.

We feel (as does QX) that your company is a union-busting whipsaw being used against TSA pilots. Since we do not recognize you as a ligitimate company, we currently do not, nor do we ever intend to institude any sort of reciprocal jumpseat agreement with you. The circumstances that led to CHQ obtaining 70 seat flying with one seniority list were far different than yours (were you here when it happened).

Frankly, it is offensive that you in any way would imply (directly or indirectly) that GJ and CHQ pilots are in any way similar. The fact is that we did what we thought we had to do at the time for the good of our ENTIRE current pilot group. TSA pilots made their decision based on what they thought was the best choice for their pilot group. If you are former TSA you should be ashamed of yourself, for you know your management. If you are new to TSH then you are in no position to offer any opinion at all (least of all on CHQ). You made your decision for you own PERSONAL benefit. If, as I suspect, you are ex-TSA your decision can only stand as gross personal greed.

You have a right to defend yourself as anyone would. However, don't compare GJ and CHQ. We are not the same. We do not want to be identified with you in any way nor do we support you. It's bad enough that you are now part of our union.

 

[redbook]

nicely stated lav service. Thanks for the support.

 

[h25b]

This comment implies that YOU and CHQ both came to the same correct realization while TSA did not. This is for future reference for you and your fellow GJ employees.

We feel (as does QX) that your company is a union-busting whipsaw being used against TSA pilots. Since we do not recognize you as a ligitimate company, we currently do not, nor do we ever intend to institude any sort of reciprocal jumpseat agreement with you. The circumstances that led to CHQ obtaining 70 seat flying with one seniority list were far different than yours (were you here when it happened).

Frankly, it is offensive that you in any way would imply (directly or indirectly) that GJ and CHQ pilots are in any way similar. The fact is that we did what we thought we had to do at the time for the good of our ENTIRE current pilot group. TSA pilots made their decision based on what they thought was the best choice for their pilot group. If you are former TSA you should be ashamed of yourself, for you know your management. If you are new to TSH then you are in no position to offer any opinion at all (least of all on CHQ). You made your decision for you own PERSONAL benefit. If, as I suspect, you are ex-TSA your decision can only stand as gross personal greed.

You have a right to defend yourself as anyone would. However, don't compare GJ and CHQ. We are not the same. We do not want to be identified with you in any way nor do we support you. It's bad enough that you are now part of our union.

You obviously have a reading deficiency because nowhere did I compare GJ's to CHQ. I compared the situation the TSA pilot group was in to the issue that the CHQ group was facing while negotiating the current CBA in the face of the Republic Airlines threat. In this case, they were very much in the same boat the TSA pilots were in. However, the CHQ pilots gave up significant demands in terms of payscales in favor of securing the Republic 70 seat flying under their own seniority list.

 

[Lav Service]

You obviously have a reading deficiency because nowhere did I compare GJ's to CHQ. I compared the situation the TSA pilot group was in to the issue that the CHQ group was facing while negotiating the current CBA in the face of the Republic Airlines threat. In this case, they were very much in the same boat the TSA pilots were in. However, the CHQ pilots gave up significant demands in terms of payscales in favor of securing the Republic 70 seat flying under their own seniority list.

Thank you for clarifying this. I simply don't wan't out pilot group in any way associated with yours by those not familiar with the situation.

BTW, the decision TSA pilots made is no excuse for any GJ pilot. You all made your decisions for you OWN reasons, not because of the actions of TSA. If you did, you're dumb.

I'm out.

 

[flyer172r]

You obviously have a reading deficiency because nowhere did I compare GJ's to CHQ. I compared the situation the TSA pilot group was in to the issue that the CHQ group was facing while negotiating the current CBA in the face of the Republic Airlines threat. In this case, they were very much in the same boat the TSA pilots were in. However, the CHQ pilots gave up significant demands in terms of payscales in favor of securing the Republic 70 seat flying under their own seniority list.

Well TSA is currently in negotiations which will probably last for the next couple years at least (can someone please tell me why it takes 3-4 years to negotiate a contract? Animosity alone can't explain that). And chances are TSA pilots will have to give up a lot of improvements to secure the GJ flying. And then everyone can start hating TSA for settling for a crappy contract instead of raising the proverbial bar.

It's not quite accurate to say that TSA pilots passed on the GJ flying. It's more accurate to say that TSA pilots didn't agree to a POS offer (and by offer I mean take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum) and decided to try to resolve the situation in contract negotiations. Negotiations made very difficult by GJ's existence. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

 

[h25b]

BTW, the decision TSA pilots made is no excuse for any GJ pilot. You all made your decisions for you OWN reasons, not because of the actions of TSA. If you did, you're dumb.

I'm out.

You make my point entirely... The fact is that the TSA pilot group was not willing to make the sacrifices to secure all of the flying under their seniority list that the CHQ obviously did. Hence, they were unable to negotiate the 70 seat flying and the company just started another list. I would argue it would have been much smarter to just go ahead and get the flying. Scope (ie. who gets to fly what) will be a much more important contract item for any pilot group for the next few years. The mainline unions are just finally figuring this out. It's much better to negotiate for keeping flying than pay/qol. Especially when virtually every pilot group is signing or being forced in to concessionary agreements in their pay/qol.

 

[h25b]

It's not quite accurate to say that TSA pilots passed on the GJ flying. It's more accurate to say that TSA pilots didn't agree to a POS offer (and by offer I mean take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum) and decided to try to resolve the situation in contract negotiations. Negotiations made very difficult by GJ's existence. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

Gee whiz, do you people even read what I post ??? You are agreeing with me entirely. You just described what the CHQ pilots did. And you all live in this same dream world of what's right and wrong. Unfortunately that's not what this business is about. It's about what's negotiated and what's not. What's legal and what's not. It has nothing to do with right and wrong. You want to sit a rant about how great and united your union is but then in the same breath basically throw the entire collective bargaining process out the window and tell us all that you got screwed even while it's clear as f'n day to anyone that YOU DIDN'T NEGOTIATE THE FLYING. YOU TURNED IT DOWN... Do you get it ??? You either negotiate something or you don't. Period.

 

[redbook]

h25b keep talking in circles and use circular reasoning. Nobody is fooled.

G0jet = alter ego/whipsaw

G0jet pilots = scumbags.

Feel free to try and complicate the basics. The facts are irrefutable despite your thousands of posts attempting to muddy the waters.