S. 65 and H.R. 1125 still alive (age 65)

[Andy]

The reality is simply that 30% participation and results of 55/45% against don't exactly indicate a mandate.

Those results are good enough for a contract to be signed.
However, I'd be surprised if there were less than 50% participation and 60/40 opposed to a change. But the poll is biased in favor of age 65, so some of the results of the poll will be used to make a case for changing ALPA policy.

The phone poll is complete; what were the results from that?

 

[PCL_128]

However, I'd be surprised if there were less than 50% participation

I think you're going to be very surprised, then.

But the poll is biased in favor of age 65, so some of the results of the poll will be used to make a case for changing ALPA policy.

The BRP designed the poll, and one of the BRP members is a regular poster on this forum. I'll let him respond to that in detail. Suffice it to say that as opposed as I am to a change, I still don't believe there was any bias cooked into the polling questions.

The phone poll is complete; what were the results from that?

They haven't been released yet, but the EC was briefed on them by the BRP.

 

[Andy]

The BRP designed the poll, and one of the BRP members is a regular poster on this forum. I'll let him respond to that in detail. Suffice it to say that as opposed as I am to a change, I still don't believe there was any bias cooked into the polling questions.

The BRP isn't exactly representative of the membership; they look pretty long in the tooth. I'd be curious to know where the BRP stands on any change - my bet is that it's something along the lines of 5-2 in favor of changing to age 65.


PCL128, thanks for the responses. My anger is not directed toward you; I am just frustrated by the abuse of power at ALPA national.

 

[PCL_128]

The BRP isn't exactly representative of the membership; they look pretty long in the tooth. I'd be curious to know where the BRP stands on any change - my bet is that it's something along the lines of 5-2 in favor of changing to age 65.

If Neal S. says that there was no intentional bias in the questions, then I believe him. He's never done anything to harm his credibility. If he wasn't on the panel, then I might be a little more skeptical.

PCL128, thanks for the responses. My anger is not directed toward you; I am just frustrated by the abuse of power at ALPA national.

No problem. I understand the frustration.

 

[whymeworry?]

Fact is, MOST of the surveys are coming from the older pilots (from a friend of mine at ALPA Nat'l). The younger in our group are either uninformed about this survey or apethetic. They will only have themselves to blame if the survey #s comes out in favor of age 65.

This group of pro-age 65ers are being predictably selfish about this issue.... they don't want to hear the safety arguement, nor do they care about their union brothers and sisters who are still on the street or facing years of stagnancy. They only care about keeping their rich lifestyles in tact. This issue is NOT about age-discrimination, this is NOT about a so-called pilot-shortage, this is NOT about keeping in step with ICAO.... This is about economics... the economics of the pilots who insist on changing the rule.

Am I wrong here? Fine, then why don't they fly as F/O if they want to fly past 60?

If the younger pilots want their voices heard, they'd better get their surveys in before the cutoff.

 

[Freight Dog]

I just saw Prater's message and when he started talking about Age 60, I wanted to hurl. If you can't see that he's basically sold us out in favor of raising the age to 65, you gotta be blind...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

World politics of open skies and the increased demand of crews in the next decade will move this forward. There is no stoping it

 

[whymeworry?]

I just saw Prater's message and when he started talking about Age 60, I wanted to hurl. If you can't see that he's basically sold us out in favor of raising the age to 65, you gotta be blind...

Prater will do what the board tells him to do. The board will do what the membership say to do. It's that simple.

 

[Flopgut]

PCL 128: Do you want participation, just for the sake of participation? Or do you want to see the union do what the membership wants? It's pretty clear that communications are jammed on this (the second poll is about to get short circuited, no one at national will communicates directly) and we've got a rogue union president. I don't think you're considering (or maybe haven't seen) how other unions work/function. This IS NOT how it's done.

 

[BoilerUP]

I've done the BRP Poll, I've talked to my reps, and I sent an email directly to Capt. Prater. The response I got from a Mr. John Mazor at ALPA Communications included, among other things, this line:

"Barring any change in the official ALPA policy, the Association will oppose any NPRM proposal to change the Age 60 rule."

I can only say I hope so...but I do fear 65 is a foregone conclusion. If the politicians in Washington want it, its gonna happen. Surprisingly enough, the only thing that might be standing in its way is the powerful airline lobby.

At the point the US government finally farks us younger pilots, the only thing to hope for, nay demand from ALPA, is fair representation and consideration of the younger segment of ALPA members so that older ALPA members do not receive a massive career windfall.

 

[Andy]

ALPA expects that attempts will be made to attach or include S. 65 and H.R. 1125 in each chamber's version of the 2007 FAA reauthorization bills which the committees of jurisdiction are scheduling to debate and vote on in May or June.

Wondering how bad this smells? Congress passed H.J. Res. 20, funding the FAA through FY07 with a continuing resolution. It is very unlikely that the House or Senate would debate or vote on an appropriations bill that expires on 30 Sep 07 when there's already a continuing resolution in place funding those agencies.
Perhaps ALPA's goal is to try to slide this into the FY2008 FAA Reauthorization Bill. In a Congress where the Democrats control both houses and have control of the appropriations subcommittees. And ALPA is trying to stop this? I don't think so.

 

[rf285]

I think if the membership says no and the leadership goes against their wishes, we should all join the Allied pilot's association. At least they stand on principle.

 

[Andy]

The BRP designed the poll, and one of the BRP members is a regular poster on this forum. I'll let him respond to that in detail. Suffice it to say that as opposed as I am to a change, I still don't believe there was any bias cooked into the polling questions.



They haven't been released yet, but the EC was briefed on them by the BRP.

I just read Agenda Item #52 from the 24-26 April Executive Council Meeting. A REAL eye opener.

Here is how they're manipulating the polling results:
"WHEREAS while the initial polling results show that ALPA members oppose a change in the rule by a narrow majority, the poll also shows that 66% of ALPA members want to modify its policy on Age 60 if it is evident that the rule will change, and"

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...View.aspx?itemid=7974&ModuleId=2044&Tabid=256

That is shameful, outright manipulation of a biased poll. I'm disgusted.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think if the membership says no and the leadership goes against their wishes, we should all join the Allied pilot's association. At least they stand on principle.

Mmm'kay, now we're getting somewhere!

Let's all join the APA! That way everything will be different! Suddenly, everybody will volunteer, run for office, and become actively involved in legislative efforts. Our PAC will soar like the APA's! Arabs will hug jews! Al Qaeda will surrender on the deck of USS Abraham Lincoln. We'll need supplemental oxygen to cope with the string of breathtaking successes!

(sigh)

ALPA ain't a building. It ain't a logo. It's pilots. It should be all of us, but it's not. It turns out it's only those pilots who get involved. If you ain't gonna get involved until we get the "L" out of ALPA, then you are a telemarketer's wet dream! As you probably know, a large segment of ALPA (Spoiler Alert! APA too!) does nothing but whine about ALPA being unsuccessful in efforts that they have refused to actively support. (adverb highlighted for effect). That is no different than the APA!

Slap a new name and logo on an apathetic pilot group, and they'll still be an apathetic pilot group.

 

[BoilerUP]

Slap a new name and logo on an apathetic pilot group, and they'll still be an apathetic pilot group.

I think that is the most accurate, truthful, and honest post in the history of Flightinfo.

 

[tomgoodman]

Grrrr...

Slap a new name and logo on an apathetic pilot group, and they'll still be an apathetic pilot group.

Maybe a ferocious name on letterheads and t-shirts will strike terror into the hearts of the enemy. For example, "Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam" or "Nippon Ham Fighters".

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I think if the membership says no and the leadership goes against their wishes, we should all join the Allied pilot's association. At least they stand on principle.

While I think the APA is a strong credible union, I also think they have it a little easier than ALPA. APA represents one airline and one pilot group. It is natural that they will have a much easier time unifying their pilots than ALPA...who has many different airlines with far more pilots. Furthermore, APA has thousands of pilots on the street...it is a lot easier for them to fall on their sword on this issue. That said, I have been very impressed with APA's response to not only this issue but their management bonuses as well as their concessionary bargaining process as a whole.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Congress had taken a laissez faire attitude toward the change and planned on leaving it to the FAA. Now all of a sudden there is talk of this change being fast tracked and buried in the DOT's appropriations bill. It is inappropriate for legislation to be included in appropriations bills and is not the normal procedure for getting legislation through Congress.
The ONLY way that this is happening is because some of ALPA national is lobbying Congress behind closed doors in favor of the change. If ALPA had continued to oppose any change, this would not be happening.

Andy,

If you look at the legislative history on this issue dating back a few years, you will find that your analysis above is incorrect. There are several people in Congress on both the House side as well as the Senate side that have made this their pet project for years. Do a little research on this issue going back a few years and you will see what I am talking about...this stuff has been going on a lot longer than Prater's short tenure.

-Neal

 

[XJTAv8r]

While I think the APA is a strong credible union, I also think they have it a little easier than ALPA. APA represents one airline and one pilot group. It is natural that they will have a much easier time unifying their pilots than ALPA...who has many different airlines with far more pilots. Furthermore, APA has thousands of pilots on the street...it is a lot easier for them to fall on their sword on this issue. That said, I have been very impressed with APA's response to not only this issue but their management bonuses as well as their concessionary bargaining process as a whole.

-Neal

Neal,

What's your take on the belief that some in ALPA leadership have their own agendas and are trying to push a "fast-track" Age 65 Rule through Congress instead of waiting for the FAA's NPRM process?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Those results are good enough for a contract to be signed.
However, I'd be surprised if there were less than 50% participation and 60/40 opposed to a change. But the poll is biased in favor of age 65, so some of the results of the poll will be used to make a case for changing ALPA policy.

The phone poll is complete; what were the results from that?

The first phone poll is complete. The survey is on-going until May 10 and once that is complete, another phone poll will be conducted to validate the results of the first poll and the survey. The results will be made public shortly thereafter, just like they were the last time 2 years ago or so.

The poll is absolutely not biased either way. That said, it was important not only to test pilots absolute feelings on the issue of Age 60/65 but also to test their sentiments using various scenarios and assumptions. Like it or not, some pilots' views on the issue do change if they believe that the age change is a foregone conclusion and if there is an opportunity to affect the change in a manner that is most beneficial to ALPA pilots.

Don't shoot the messenger Andy.

-Neal