Ryanair, Easyjet questions re: contracts

[aa73]

Hi all,

Having read a bunch of stuff about these 2 airlines on Pprune, I must say I am confused about how these airlines hire and how that compares to US airlines.

Folks talk about "Brookshire contracts" and "Flexi crews"... what does all that stuff mean? Don't Ryanair and Easyjet just hire pilots and pay them? Like, I was hired at AA in 2000, and we are all part of one seniority list. No contracts, just the list. Seems like Ryanair/Easyjet have ten different seniority lists, not to mention all the different bases. I thought all Ryanair crews were Irish (being an Irish airline) and likewise, all Easyjet crews were British. Kind of like Aer Lingus and British Airways.

Can someone clear it up for me?

Thanks,
73

 

[Smash312]

Ryanair have hired in many different ways in the past. At current they're hiring FO's though 'Brookfield Aviation'. They are a staffing company. Fresh 250hr guys go though them and pay for their 'sim assessment' then if selected they are then asked to pay about $40,000 for a 737NG type rating from CAE in The Netherlands. Upon completion they then go off to work for Ryanair as new FO's. As for Captains if you have the minimums they require then Ryanair hire you directly, so you'll be on Ryanairs books.

As for Easyjet, I haven't looked into them recently so I'm not too sure. Their websites are quite clear on how they hire and what the process is.

Essentially Ryanair and EasyJet are European airlines and hence require JAA licenses. Bases are all over Europe. Think of it as a United States of Europe. Basing works exactly like in the United Stated of America.

I hope I have answered your question clearly.

 

[aa73]

Yes, for the most part. Just confused about a couple things...

1. To become an F/O at a major US airline, one must have thousands of hours, most of it as either a military pilot or several years at a reginal airline flying smaller equipment. How can Ryanair hire a 250hr pilot - to fly a 737, no less - and consider it safe? When I had 250 hours I had no business being anywhere NEAR a light piston twin much less a jetliner!

2. Who IN THEIR RIGHT MIND!!! would pay $40,000 for a 737 type rating when you can get one in the US for $7000 or possibly less? Or does Ryanair require you do it at CAE Netherlands?

and finally, 3. why doesn't Ryanair just hire directly instead of going through contracted schools?

Thanks for your answers.
73

 

[say again]

1. Sort of like the 250 hr wonders flying rj's here in the US, but on a larger scale. Is it safe? Well, I couldnt see myself flying a jet at those hrs.

2. Im guessing its a JAA type curriculum deal. But that is only a GUESS. lol

3. no idea. Money savings?

 

[DC10]

A 250 hour pilot flying a 737 in Europe is no more dangerous than a 250 hour pilot flying a RJ in the US.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Besides, it is not like AA, UAL, EAL, TWA have never done it, all airlines here in the US at some point or another have hired low time pilots

 

[Smash312]

Yes, I think that is how it's viewed. 250 hours in a 737 and 250 hours in an RJ - same risk. I agree with you that I personally don't think that it should happen. But it does. To be honest with you all of my friends who did their JAA licenses they all got jobs on Boeing or Airbus products at 250 hours. Me, well, I couldn't touch an RJ until 1500TT. My first F/O (on an RJ) had 270TT. It is what it is.

Secondly, an FAA 737 type rating isn't AS GOOD as a JAA one. Trust me it just isn't (please hear the sarcasm). The JAA use protectionism to try and keep some flight training in Europe. You can't transfer the FAA type rating to a JAA one - or not until you have EXTENSIVE experience and take a 'skills test' in the aircraft. So you WILL pay $40k when really you can get it for $7k elsewhere in the world. Odd. Ryanair require you to do the training at CAE.

Why doesn't Ryanair directly take F/Os. Hmmm.... well they used to. Ryanair is about cheap. I'm sure that Ryanair makes money out of the $40k type rating. I'm sure of it. Also, I'm assuming that they've totally taken the risk out of and expense out of handling the F/Os. Captains they know they need, so they've kept a hold of that hiring.

 

[ualdriver]

Yes, for the most part. Just confused about a couple things...

1. To become an F/O at a major US airline, one must have thousands of hours, most of it as either a military pilot or several years at a reginal airline flying smaller equipment. How can Ryanair hire a 250hr pilot - to fly a 737, no less - and consider it safe? When I had 250 hours I had no business being anywhere NEAR a light piston twin much less a jetliner!

2. Who IN THEIR RIGHT MIND!!! would pay $40,000 for a 737 type rating when you can get one in the US for $7000 or possibly less? Or does Ryanair require you do it at CAE Netherlands?

and finally, 3. why doesn't Ryanair just hire directly instead of going through contracted schools?

Thanks for your answers.
73

check out pprune.com and you'll see where they're coming from....

1. They don't care. They want cheap, not safe. It's no different than here.

2. Those guys will pay $40K for a type rating because at the end of their training, they'll be hired at Ryanair. They'll be low time, flying a 737 for a wage that is high enough to cover the monthly cost of their financed type rating. Their other option is to go find a job flying something else for less money that's will most likely not be an airliner. It's a pretty easy decision for a guy fresh out of flight school over there. What's a "little" more debt when you're sitting on a huge mound of it already and you get to fly a 737?

3. They do hire directly (they were recruiting at UAL back in 2007), but if they can, they try to go through their partner flight schools. That way, the student is paying for his initial training (and his subsequent training at Ryanair for that matter), and I'm pretty sure he's considered a "contract employee." No doubt Ryanair makes some money off the type rating fee as well. Plus, from what I read on pprune, it seems as a good way to fracture the Ryanair pilot group. It keeps those pesky unions like BALPA off the property. It seems as if the new guys are just "glad to be there" and haven't figured out what a scumbag O'Leary is, so they're not interested in unionizing while the Ryanair pilot employees seem more interested in organizing.

 

[aa73]

Thanks guys for the replies. I should have clarified, I do agree with the fact that a 250hr pilot is same risk, 737, CRJ or any airliner for that matter.

I'm uniquely interested in the fact that, AT LEAST the pilot who forks over $40K is payed a decent wage at Ryanair - unlike starting pay at the regionals here in the US, where they start out at, what , $20K?

 

[Smash312]

All of the guys I know who did the 250 hour Ryanair gig have so far over the past 6 years made tonnes more than me. Tonnes more. Quite a few of the guys left Ryanair and moved to the Mid East or to other airlines in the UK. On the high end I know of two guys doing $12k a month tax free in Dubai on the 737 and on the bad end one guy at British Airways cleaning up about £4-5000 ($6500-$8500) a month. All FO's.

May I add, each and everyone doing better than me. I on the other hand am averaging $2000 a month. Sad.

 

[skyaddict]

Hi all,
I thought all Ryanair crews were Irish (being an Irish airline) and likewise, all Easyjet crews were British. Kind of like Aer Lingus and British Airways.

Can someone clear it up for me?

Thanks,
73

The European Union has a single, EU-wide job market.

 

[aa73]

Thanks again.

So, is a job with BA kind of like winning the lottery, hired at a major int'l airline... or are jobs with EZY/RYA more attractive?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Those are still LLC jobs with sub par work rules and smaller a/c's although they do pay well, specially when compared to the ridiculous salaries here in the U.S. but you will work very hard for your money at both EYZ/RYA. The job at BA has better work rules, qol and variety of a/c's and route structure

 

[aa73]

Thanks DP. And thanks everyone else for the replies. Guess I'll stay at AA, lol.

 

[TDK90]

You can't transfer the FAA type rating to a JAA one - or not until you have EXTENSIVE experience and take a 'skills test' in the aircraft.

Not strictly true, I'm in the process of doing it right now. If you have sufficient experience on type, you can just take the JAA checkride with no prior JAA training. It can all be done in the simulator as well. Each JAA member state has different rules about it though, I'm just quoting the UK method. Of course you need to pass all 14 written exams first....

As far as EZY and RYN are concerned they're a good bet if you have lots of money and no experience, experienced guys generally stay away until these type of airlines can't get enough warm bodies and are then forced to hire real FOs and pay them appropriately.

 

[Smash312]

Not strictly true, I'm in the process of doing it right now. If you have sufficient experience on type, you can just take the JAA checkride with no prior JAA training. It can all be done in the simulator as well. Each JAA member state has different rules about it though, I'm just quoting the UK method. Of course you need to pass all 14 written exams first....

As far as EZY and RYN are concerned they're a good bet if you have lots of money and no experience, experienced guys generally stay away until these type of airlines can't get enough warm bodies and are then forced to hire real FOs and pay them appropriately.

If you have 'sufficient experience' you can just take the checkride with no prior training. Well, in that case you will have to hire the aircraft in which you are rated in. That will cost LOADS. Then you will have to pay for the UK CAA to come and sit in on the checkride. If this is done in a simulator in the US, the CAA will only travel first class (which you will have to pay for) and then you'll have to put them up in a 4 star minimum hotel. You're right, it can be done like this. But lets not kid anyone - it's not cheap. By the time you spend this type of money, you'll find it'll be cheaper to just do the checkride in a piston aircraft. I hate it how people make this part of the process sound 'easy'. It can be - but then it's not cost effective.

So to re cap - unless you have sufficient experience and the money to hire the aircraft (CRJ/737 etc) (or sim - that is JAA certified) and pay for the CAA examiner to join you wherever in the world you are (by paying first class and top accommodation) then you can do it.

I am in the process of doing it right now and trust me, they don't make the flying part/sim part any easier. And not just 'any sim' will do for the checkride. So no, you can't use the $5k 737 sim in Miami, you have to use the JAA Certified $20k 737 sim. You know why? Because it's better. Again - hear the sarcasm.

 

[flyburg]

If you have 'sufficient experience' you can just take the checkride with no prior training. Well, in that case you will have to hire the aircraft in which you are rated in. That will cost LOADS. Then you will have to pay for the UK CAA to come and sit in on the checkride. If this is done in a simulator in the US, the CAA will only travel first class (which you will have to pay for) and then you'll have to put them up in a 4 star minimum hotel. You're right, it can be done like this. But lets not kid anyone - it's not cheap. By the time you spend this type of money, you'll find it'll be cheaper to just do the checkride in a piston aircraft. I hate it how people make this part of the process sound 'easy'. It can be - but then it's not cost effective.

So to re cap - unless you have sufficient experience and the money to hire the aircraft (CRJ/737 etc) (or sim - that is JAA certified) and pay for the CAA examiner to join you wherever in the world you are (by paying first class and top accommodation) then you can do it.

I am in the process of doing it right now and trust me, they don't make the flying part/sim part any easier. And not just 'any sim' will do for the checkride. So no, you can't use the $5k 737 sim in Miami, you have to use the JAA Certified $20k 737 sim. You know why? Because it's better. Again - hear the sarcasm.

all this is completely true, However, it works the other way around as well. I have a US ATP as well as a JAA ATP. on the JAA ATP, I have a 737 PIC Type rating. It is not possible to get that on my FAA ATP.

I have been led to believe that by filing out some paperwork I can get a FAA SIC VFR rating on my FAA license but in order to get a full FAA 737 type I'd have to do a full US course. If my information is incorrect, please let me know. I would love to have a 737 type on my FAA license without having to go all the loops.

then again, I don't think this is possible. Also a little bit of sarcasm, but why is my JAA type not good enough for the FAA? is their training (FAA)any better? Also, could I even get a FAA designated examiner to go to Europe and sit in on a OPS check?

I think not.

 

[TDK90]

If you have 'sufficient experience' you can just take the checkride with no prior training. Well, in that case you will have to hire the aircraft in which you are rated in. That will cost LOADS. Then you will have to pay for the UK CAA to come and sit in on the checkride. If this is done in a simulator in the US, the CAA will only travel first class (which you will have to pay for) and then you'll have to put them up in a 4 star minimum hotel. You're right, it can be done like this. But lets not kid anyone - it's not cheap. By the time you spend this type of money, you'll find it'll be cheaper to just do the checkride in a piston aircraft. I hate it how people make this part of the process sound 'easy'. It can be - but then it's not cost effective.

So to re cap - unless you have sufficient experience and the money to hire the aircraft (CRJ/737 etc) (or sim - that is JAA certified) and pay for the CAA examiner to join you wherever in the world you are (by paying first class and top accommodation) then you can do it.

I am in the process of doing it right now and trust me, they don't make the flying part/sim part any easier. And not just 'any sim' will do for the checkride. So no, you can't use the $5k 737 sim in Miami, you have to use the JAA Certified $20k 737 sim. You know why? Because it's better. Again - hear the sarcasm.

If you're doing it right now as well you've obviosly read LASORS G.1.5, you don't have to hire an aircraft at all, just the sim. So for me it's a couple of hours in a CRJ sim in Germany or Spain, not cheap but not as expensive as doing a JAA ME CPL IR. I don't know what your experience is, but you are right in that you have to pay a bucket load of cash to the CAA just o come and watch...

 

[HOURBUILDER]

hi

So you are saying that it is not required to pass the JAA written test if you have sufficient experience?
Can you please tell me what is that minimum experience to convert your FAA license to a JAA license through a single checkride.
I have both US and EU passport.

Thanks

 

[typhoonpilot]

hi

So you are saying that it is not required to pass the JAA written test if you have sufficient experience?
Can you please tell me what is that minimum experience to convert your FAA license to a JAA license through a single checkride.
I have both US and EU passport.

Thanks

I believe you'd still have to take at least two of the written exams plus a checkride. This is when you have 1500 PIC international time in a suitable jet transport aircraft.


Typhoonpilot