RVSM and the 135 freight world

[Peter Gibbons]

In Jan. 2005 RVSM is coming into play. Will your company be around then? You can fly a Falcon 20 around at 290 and make money, but not a lear 25.
AND.....will it be so crowded at 280/290 that there will be restrictions or a reservation system in place?
Something to think about...another possible blow to an already "wobly" industry. Input?

 

[pilotyip]

simple Answer

Just certifiy your DA-20's for RVSM like we are and have a whole bunch of altitudes to pick from becasue non of the other 135 guys will be using them.

 

[eagle430]

what does it take to certify a learjet or any other jet for rvsm?

 

[135fr8r]

Something that all 135 jet operators do not have at this time............MONEY!!!!

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Is there anyone that even has the RVSM conversion kit for the 20 series Lear Jets?
If so how much and will these companies find it more to their liking to fold before they spend that much money?

BTW--PilotYIP....I'm glad you work for such a wonderful company since I guess you got stuck in the freight world. Thanks for the smug remark and have fun living in the ARMPIT of America for the rest of your life.

 

[Country Wild]

Easy now Peter, Pilot Yip is just stating a fact, if no one else RVSM's their freight aircraft right away there will plenty of airspace available. Why does everyone assume some one got Stuck in the freight world, Hind sight being 20/20 I should have taken the job 30 years ago with Fed Ex flying Falcons. UAL hasn't been very stable over the last 30 years.
As far as RVSMing Lear 20 series, I have heard of a few companies trying to get the certification, I don't know if any one has. Somewhere I read about they might have to have a certain type of wing or something.
Basic economics says that if a Lear is worth 250K and it will cost 200K for RVSM will it be worth it and does a particular company have the available funding short term or long term to do this.
From talking to some of my friends in the 135/121 on demand cargo business, we are all wondering if Ameristar will make it when RVSM rolls around. I have heard that they have been flying dirt cheap for the last four years hoping to put everyone else out of business, then when the economy came back they would be the big freight company flying for a premium rate. Does anyone know the accuracy of that, or what type of financial position they are in? It would unfortunate for the pilots that fly there and end up out on the street due to financial mis-management.
Fly Safe

 

[Peter Gibbons]

First of all I was simply frustrated when I wrote the whole thing about PilotYip...I don't put Fed Ex in the same category with any 135 operator...I should have said "...stuck in the 135 frieght world." Yes I know Usa Jet has 9's (121) and they are a stand-up company...but in my experience I have only met one pilot that flies for them that didn't go out of his way to be a snob to me. I fly the same types of planes, pick up the same freight, and fly through the same skies they do. Just because your wearing four bars and I'm wearing an oil stained Polo doesn't mean your better than me. Our companies compete not the pilots. This is in no way meant to be a bashing on USA Jet...but I get the impression the pilots there think their SH@# doesn't stink. I live the life of a freight pilot and everyone I ever come into contact with everywhere I go I try to be nice to no matter how tough my day has been or what position the other person holds from the line guy to the Janitors.
I would love to work for USA Jet but if I had to fly around with guys like that all the time I might have to pass.

On RVSM...wasn't RVSM devised (in addition to opening up new altitudes for traffic congestion) to get rid of older noisier JETS?

 

[JimNtexas]

Via the miracle that is Google:


RVSM for Lear 24/25, $150K + autopilot overhaul. Also requires 5-10 hours for flight test.

 

[Timebuilder]

CURRENT STATUS:Avcon is aggressively pursuing FAA approval of the Lear 24/25 RVSM program. We have completed extensive base line flight testing, as well as comparison flight testing of the aircraft configured with both Rosemount and Standard Pitot Static systems installed on the aircraft. The test aircraft is now fully modified with RVSM equipment for the completion of flight testing, and is currently being conformed by the FAA.

I think there are two or three companies that can only say this much (such as the statement above) right now about the 20 series. From what I understand, some view the idea of an "overhaul" of the autopilot to be "fanciful". Also, there is a difference in the way the avionics communicate with the older style autopilot, and some Lear people I have talked with say that many planes won't be seen as economically feasible when all is said and done.

As for my old outfit, most of the planes are on leaseback, and they will have the customer face the cost of the refit on the 35's and 55's.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Hey Now Peter,

Theres nothing wrong with living in Ypsitucky As far as the RVSM and A/P overhaul, spiritwings is working on that and 150K+ is accurate. Doesn't make much sense when yer flying a 3-400K crusty 24. I think SW is also working on fitting the 24/25 with Williams FJ44s...somewhere around 1.3M... Seems to be it might just be better to look for a LR35?

Input?

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

one of my co-workers seems to think that there will be a grandfather clause to extend for us lear 20 operators? any thoughts?

 

[Snoopy58]

grandfather clause

That would have to involve a 2000' block altitude assignment every time your jet is level above FL280... they might give you an exception to LET you operate up there without the equipment, but no combination of waivers/exceptions/grandfather clauses will make your equipment accurate enough for safe RVSM ops if it isn't already.

Giving you 340B360 (i.e. you're flying at 350 but they can't put anybody else closer than 330 or 370, as presently) would kill all westbound flight levels between 32 and 38, which would force a LOT of people to be vectored away from your flight path. Doesn't seem like a very workable solution to me.

Of course, AW&ST quotes somebody who refers to D.C. as a "logic-free zone," so anything's possible, I suppose.

 

[100-1/2]

FUTURE RADIO TRANSMISSION:

CLEARANCE... LEAR TANGO NOVEMBER 25 CHARLIE ALPHA... IFR TO MacALLEN with WHISKEY...

"LR TN25CA is cleared to MFE via JPOOL9.CWK, THX Direct MFE... CLIMB and MAINTAIN 1-2-TWELVE THOUSAND... EXPECT 1-6-SIXTEEN-THOUSAND (AS A FINAL) 1-0 MINUTES AFTER DEPARTURE... DEPARTURE FREQUENCY WILL BE 121.5 (To declare MINIMUM FUEL) SQUAWK 7-7-0-0...GROUND POINT 75 WHEN READY FOR TAXI... HAVE A SAFE FLIGHT...

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

There will be no grandfather clauses for anyone. The only non-RVSM'd aircraft that can fly above 290 will be ones that can climb directly to FL 430, it the controllers have the space available to let you through 290-420.

I just read about companies attempting to get a group RVSM cert for the 20 series Lears. It sounds like it will be very difficult, unless you are a fleet owner with a bunch of identical airplanes/avionics. The author surmised that most 20-series will have to be RVSM'd on their own, which takes a lot longer and is a lot more expensive than on a group cert, due to the wide range of airframes and avionics.

Also, this article said the autopilots must be capable of maininting altitude withing 65' ALL of the time.

Here's the address:
http://www.ainonline.com/issues/07_03/07_03_drvsmdeadlinep88.html

Cliff
DTW

PS-I heard all 135 aircraft will also need EGPWS soon.

 

[RedBelly]

USA Jet (aka Active Aero) was a much more enjoyable place to work back in the end of the Bob era. Sure, he hated pilots, but at least you knew where you stood with him.

It used to be SOP to go hang around the lounge during the day with the other guys when you weren't flying & do jepps & BS. There were always new guys around tyring to scrounge up a flight or two in the King Air or Beech 18 as well. Around noon, whoever was there would head on down to Allies or Big Boy for lunch. We got paid by the mile & busted our butts loading freight. The faster you got the freight on board, the better the chance of getting another trip on your duty day. T-shirts, jeans, & tennis shoes were the norm back then. It was truely a great bunch of guys back then. We worked hard, but had tons of fun.

Then Bob sold the company to MG. I took 4 pay cuts that first year. Guys started complaining about loading freight, stopped hanging out in the lounge. We had to wear uniforms.. etc. Then the seniority merger with USA Jet happened & it ticked off many of the old Active Aero folks. There was a power struggle going on between the 135 & 121 sides. The company also started hiring loads of people to do administrative type jobs. Back in 1992 - 93, every airplane could be out flying & you could still find a parking spot in the front row. About 1995 - 96, every airplane could be parked on the ramp, and you could hardly find a parking spot at all. We were being told about all the great things in our futures... we were all going to be A300 or DC-10 captains real soon. Money was just being thrown away.

About that time is when people started getting hired away & leaving for other airlines... including me in 1997. Guys were bailing for Spirit, Kitty Hawk, Reliant, and others. I only know of a few people who I know that are still there.

If I had to choose between Active Aero 10 years ago, or USA Jet now, it would be no contest... give me Active Aero every time. RVSM or not.

 

[Buckeye]

Does anyone know how this might affect Ameristar, Cherry Air, Grandair, Usa Jet, Kalitta, and some of the others that fly Lears and Falcons? Anyone have any legitiment knowledge of what is going to happen at their respective companies? Thanx

 

[jumppilot03]

Just curious how the new RVSM requirement is going to effect companies such as Kitty Hawk, Champion, UPS and others flying the old 727. Are the avionics and autopilots in these airplanes already compliant? Thanks

 

[Rick1128]

RVSM

Instead of looking at the price tag for RVSM look at what it will cost to replace that equipment with an RVSM aircraft. LR25 250K + 200K for RVSM and A/P = 450K. LR35 1.2M plus 200K for RVSM = 1.4M. The numbers just don't add up. As for the FJ44 conversion the numbers are even worst. LR25 250K plus 1.2m for conversion = 1.45M. And as a converted aircraft its value will not equal the price of conversion. So I believe you will see very few of the FJ44 conversions.

Goodrich/L-3 Avionics support the FC110 a/p. Part of the RVSM mod is having L-3 overhaul the a/p. The early ones may not take converted digital inputs very well. But there are STCs for aftermarket a/p's that will accept digitial inputs.

I do not believe that RVSM will kill the 20 series. What will kill the aircraft is

1. Cost of engine overhauls. Presently averaging over 400K each.

2. Lack of parts. Many of the manufacturers of Lear parts are now out of business or have sold their Lear programs to others who are not actively supporting the aircraft.

3. Lack of support from Learjet. Basic attitude at Learjet these days is 'If its got tip tanks and especially if its got the small engines, We didn't make it'. They have also chased off almost all of the people who made Learjet, Learjet.

 

[uscpilot]

I realize that this does not have anything to do with RVSM, but it does pertain to the longevity of the lear 20 series. I have heard that there is a mod for the lear 20 where the engines are swapped for the same engine that goes on the citation CJ 2, I think. Is there any truth to this. More importantly is it likely. I cant imagine that it is since most of the companies that operate 20's will have enough trouble with RVSM let alone putting new engines on. Although they might allow the aircraft to operate and profite below 290.
Thanks

 

[Rick1128]

USC,

You are refering to the FJ44 engines. but at a cost of at least $1.2 million just for the conversion, I personally do not believe that there will be many takers.

It has been my experience that almost all converted aircraft do not increase in value enough to pay for the conversion. And sometime even decrease the value of the aircraft.

Why do that conversion when you can buy a LR35 for the same money or less? And since they will take the trunk tank out, will reduce the range to less than the 35's range.

The numbers just don't add up.