Runway incursions

[enigma]

In another string, TIS asked if anyone had experienced a real incursion and mentioned that 60% (or so) of all incursions were pilot error.

I want to discuss what we pilots think could be done to reduce our error rate. I've never been involved in a true incursion, but have come dang close.

How many of you have been berated by ATC after you stopped your taxi in order to insure your own situational awareness?

In my experience, the near incursion almost always takes place when ATC wants the pilot to get in a hurry, or most likely, at an airport where ATC has trained the pilots to "press on regardless" or risk encuring the wrath of a short tempered controller. Or both, like LGA pre-Sept11. It seems as if the ORD controllers would rather have you make a wrong turn than stop. Actually, it seems that they would rather have you do whatever you didn't do. If you stop and query, they would rather have had you keep moving in the wrong direction. If you move in the wrong direction, they would have rather had you stop and ask. So after a while, a pilot learns that you are danged if you do and danged if you don't. It is at that point that we get dangerous.
What do you think?

regards,
enigma

 

[TIS]

Oh, I'll be gettin' there!

I've created quite a presentation in PowerPoint (387 slides at last count) on how we pilots can raise our awareness of high incursion risk situations.

Most of the things that are within our control are things we take for granted by themselves. However, when certain things are combined they engender a higher than normal incursion risk. When too many of these ordinary circumstances get mixed in with just one bad item an incursion is the result.

There is also a great deal of straightforward information out there that requires a little thought to realize the signficance of.

One thing that everyone MUST realize is that the only thing that separates an incursion from an accident is when it is interdicted. When an accident is the result of an incursion, there's a big investigation by the NTSB. They have subpoena power as well as a major investigative apparatus. When all is said and done, the error chain is clear and the cause is almost indisputable.

When an incursion does NOT result in an accident none of this stuff happens. We never get insight into how the event came to pass because not only is there no investigative mechanism to descern what happened, no one who may have been responsible is all that interested in talking about it - for understandable legal reasons.

"What about NASA reports?" you may ask. The NASA report will prevent you from losing your ticket for 60 days and that's why you should file one if you're involved in an incursion that you may have had a hand in causing.

The trouble with NASA reports however, is that they are expressly designed to gather data. That's what the ASRS system is ALL about. The report cannot be used as an investigative tool. While it is true that filing such a report may indeed offer valuable insights into the whys and wherefores of a particular incident, said incident and the explanation cannot officially be linked. This means that as a tool to teach us all how to avoid the pattern of events that lead to any particular incursion, NASA reports do not cut it.

When I get some time I'll put some of what I've learned about the subject up here. I think everyone will learn a lot. With 60% of incursions being caused by pilot errors I thkn we all have plenty we COULD learn.

TIS

 

[bigD]

My only actual incursion occured during my first solo in a 152. It was at an uncontrolled airport, and during my first landing, after calling my final, a 182 pipes up and says he's on final as well. I looked around, didn't see him, and decided that he must be above me. I asked for his altitude, but he didn't reply. I was afraid of climbing into him if I went around, so I just landed as close the beginning of the runway as I could, and sure enough, he came floating down about a 1000 feet down the runway. We touched down right at about the same time. He did a touch and go, and left the pattern without a word.

I made all of my radio calls, and of course he didn't make his presence known. What I don't remember is if I checked to see if final was clear before I turned from base to final. If I did check - *really* check, I bet I would have seen him. I realize he's not required to make any calls, and he can choose to fly any pattern he wishes. I talked to my instructor about it after a few more landings, filed a NASA report, and learned something that day.

My grandfather was taking pictures during the incident, and I have a couple where you can see me on short final, at about 100 feet, with a 182 another 50 feet above me. Ick.

 

[chperplt]

Seems to me that many controllers are given some very ambiguous taxi instructions lately.

What happened to the days of explicit instructions? Anyone been to LGA lately and heard taxi to the gate via Golf and Bravo? Last time I checked, there was no gate access from Bravo.

I was in PVD a few weeks ago and was told to taxi to runway 23. That was the entire taxi instruction. I queried the controller as to how they would like me to get to 23, and I got a lashing back.

 

[enigma]

I was in PVD a few weeks ago and was told to taxi to runway 23. That was the entire taxi instruction. I queried the controller as to how they would like me to get to 23, and I got a lashing back.

'

Exactly, if you dare ask for a re-read, or ask for clarification, some controllers try and make you feel like an idiot. Pretty soon, you just go ahead without checking.

My first arrival at DIA happened with a fairly new FO. We were given a long taxi clearance while still doing about 60 kts and I ignored it. The FO heard the clearance but wasn't exactly sure about it. After clearing I stopped on the taxiway, had the FO ask for a re-read. I had studied the airport diagram enroute but wasn't familiar enough to immediately pick out the proper taxiway. As soon as we stopped a female controller proceeded to give us a tongue lashing because we were making a UAL 757 taxi past his prefered highspeed and informed us that we were in the way. I held my ground and informed here that I was unsure how to proceed and didn't want to cause her an incursion. She had no regard for our desire to get it right, she only wanted us to make her life as easy as possible. This kind of stuff happens often enough to make even normally careful people do things they know they should not do, just because they don't want to deal with surly controllers.

regards,
enigma

 

[Nolife]

No lashings yet

I just went to IAH tonight for my first time. After landing I asked for progressive to east cargo which was on the other side. They were very nice and, again I asked for a progressive to reposition west for fuel and again they were very nice.

In my experience asking for progressive and telling ATC that I'm unfamiliar gets me good directions and professional attitudes. I'm sure some guys have bad days or at peak times they can be short but they usually realize going slower is better than an incursion.

Just my experience and my two cents.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I saw a runway incursion that caused the tower to send us around. The aircraft was simply stopped VERY close to the hold line, and accidentally rolled forward a foot or two. They were NOT (intentionally) leaving their hold position.

I have had numerous people taxi right up to the hold short line at a rather high rate of speed, and then suddenly stop VERY close to the line. It makes me nervous.

I have been in a runway incursion myself once. I read back the clearance to hold short, and then told the captain to hold short. Later in the taxi he asked me if we were to hold short, and I told him yes, we had to hold short (this may have happened 2 times during the taxi). Then, as he was doing the typical taxi up very close to the line quickly, he said to me, "We're cleared on to the runway, right?" as he blew across the hold short line.

I called the tower quickly and asked for permission to taxi out on the runway (there was no traffic) and they said OK. Whew!

I didn't really know what to do. I told the captain somewhere between 2-4 times to hold short. I guess if I could've jammed on the brakes as we approached the hold short line, but a number of people do this rather quickly, and I would be braking the aircraft to a stop rather often.

Next time a captain taxis up to the line fast, I'll talk to him about it.

CLiff
GRB

 

[Vector4fun]

I work at a facility (AUS) that's really very easy to navigate on the ground and has few potentials for actual runway incursions, but have a few comments for CFIs and GA.

We have a TERRIBLE problem with GA pilots turning off the runway and failing to taxi ACROSS the hold-short lines before stopping to call ground. Some barely clear the runway at all. They cross that white line marking the edge of the actual runway and stop right there. NOT GOOD! This is something you should stress on your BFR orals folks.

Last Sunday, I had a Cessna clear at J and ask for taxi instructions. I replied, "Turn left first intersection, then hold short of the next intersection". Simple eh? Cessna asked for a repeat, so I did, s l o w l y. Guy turned left and went straight to parking!
Folks, there's an easy half hour of material on airport movements and markings for those BFRs...

You corporate folks, I know you anticipate our normal prompt and excelent service, but sometimes we are busy on the phone or another frequency. I got involved in negotiating a release from TMU on an air-carrier the other day. Meanwhile, a Cheyenne cleared the runway and went straight into the FBO. No big deal really, except he had no taxi clearance. He called twice while I was on the phone, and when I got off he berated ME for not answering sooner. I replied that since he was already AT the FBO ramp, I didn't see why he still needed a taxi clearance!?!?

 

[F9 Driver]

LGA gets my vote as least hospitable.

I've been severly chastized by ground for stopping on a dark and stormy night to confirm instructions (I wasn't near the active or blocking an exiting airplane.)

I went around from a visual at about 300 agl there because Spirit taxied across the active after reading back a hold short clearance. The tower controler was so irate she began screaming at the Spirit pilots, giving the phone number etc, and didn't bother giving us missed instructions (we were cleared for a visual.)

MDW is a tough one too. Landing traffic sometimes can't get far enough onto the taxiway to be across the hold lines due to pushing/taxing traffic. ATC keeps the planes landing though.

I've also had a NASCAR driver/pilot taxi across the runway at an uncontrolled field somewhere in NH with us on final at about 500agl. He was on center picking up his IFR and not CTAF. BE-350 I think with RW on the tail.

I'm just glad that each time it has happened it was day VFR.

Keep your eyes open folks!

 

[enigma]

LGA gets my vote as least hospitable.

I went around from a visual at about 300 agl there because Spirit taxied across the active after reading back a hold short clearance.

My apologies on behalf of my fellow pilots.

regards,
enigma

 

[F9 Driver]

No worries

No blood. No bent metal.

"Oh no! Not ANOTHER learning experience!"

 

[TIS]

CRM is for controllers too!

Vector4fun and I have been back and forth about some of this stuff before. His viewpoint is important for us all to understand. He can offer insights into the business of controlling “little airmen” that we cannot get without getting it from the source.

That said, I think he will agree with much of what I will say next, even if it seems a little heavy handed. It’s that way because I have just about had it up to here with surly controllers who do what they can to squelch the AIM in favor of what works for them at any particular point in time. The bottom line is this: DON’T take ANY guff from a controller when you KNOW you’ve done what’s right for YOU. More on this in a bit.

It is well known that CRM, as practiced in a multi-pilot cockpit, is about establishing and maintaining a tone that fosters mutual respect and open communication. The Captain who fails to establish an appropriate tone runs the risk that the other crewmember(s) may decide to let him hang out to dry.

Similarly, controllers who get agitated when we pilots do what we are supposed to do according to the AIM, numerous advisory circulars on the subject of surface operations, and plain old common sense, run this same risk. It is up to the controller and the pilot to establish and maintain a mutually respectful and complementary relationship so that the objectives of ATC are met on all levels. Failure to do so by either member of the partnership unwisely shifts the focus, even if only momentarily, away from the primary purpose of the relationship on both sides of the radio.

Controllers make errors often. So do pilots. They’re people – that’s what people do. It happens more often when we are tired. Pilots and controllers alike are subject to this phenomenon. It happens more often when the challenges that we face in our respective jobs are increased in number or complexity, or both. It happens MOST often however, when we either fail to make perceptions, or when we fail to make proper sense of the perceptions that are guiding our actions.

The job of the controller is VERY different from the job of the pilot. Where the controller deals with many airplanes (and hence, pilots) in just one basic operational context, the pilot deals with many controllers in an equal number of operational contexts that must be aligned with the one context important to him – his aircraft. The two jobs simply have nothing in common – unless you count the fact that airplanes and airports are involved.

So when a pilot or a controller takes a pause to work something out, it is vital that the other party embraces the need for correctness rather than chastise the lack of self-assuredness. Correctness, after all, is a cornerstone of safety in our business. It is equally important for both sides to recognize when such pauses are appropriate. It’s not appropriate, for example, to leave your tail hanging out over an active runway while you sort out which way is the correct direction to turn to get to your destination on the airport.

Here’s where we get back to dealing with the controller with a riot act to read to everyone. Whether I’m right or wrong, when it happens, a controller who spends time lecturing me about anything is NOT doing the most important part of his or her job. Likewise, a pilot who gets into it with a controller while operating his aircraft makes the same mistake. It is important, as a pilot, to incorporate this fact into how you deal with these kinds of situations.

Here’s what I tell them. I inform them that we’re not going to do this over the radio – it is simply neither the time nor the place to have this debate. I ask for the tower phone number and their initials so I can ask for them specifically when I call. When I call, I am polite but firm. I explain that I understand that I may have placed a momentary kink in their way of life in the cab but that the operational requirements of an aircraft under my command override ALL other considerations. This is the foundation upon which everything in all of aviation rests. If it goes further than that, I explain that it is inappropriate and unprofessional for them to ignore this fact simply because it is more convenient for them to do so. I explain that if I am uncertain of my location, my situation, my instructions, etc, it is most appropriate for me to stop and take stock so that an error is NOT the end result.

One thing that putting a little time in between event and discussion does is allow a cooler head to replace the one each of the parties may well be using at the time of the incident. It is what makes it possible to state your position without ripping the controller a new one. You will also understand more clearly what the issue was for them because you’ll actually HEAR what they have to say about it.

Pilots and controllers both have important jobs to do. Pilots and controllers alike must recognize that it is THEIR own jobs that they must pay the most attention to. Our roles and responsibilities demand different pieces of the same puzzle and we must work to gether to make it all fit. In the end, I think this is the message that is too often unheard by both parties.

TIS

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

How do you suppose the environment out there would be if pilots were as rude to controllers as the latter are to the former?

 

[Vector4fun]

TIS,

I really DO agree with just about everything you wrote.

I'll say the same thing; stay cool, call the Supe say there's apparently been a mis-understanding or whatever, and ask to discuss it. Don't be angry or intimidating or whatever. This is a learning opportunity for all involved.

I'm only going to "defend" my fellow controllers by saying that I don't know ONE personally, who doesn't want a friendly and professional relationtionship with the users. I think the VAST majority of our mutual problems are simply mis-understandings and mis-communications. We (ATC) simply don't have TIME to explain our actions at times, and I have no doubt we sometimes come off as rude or short. That's not our intention.

If I say "Unable flight following, remain clear of Charlie Airspace", that probably comes off as rude to the pilot. He doesn't know that I'll probably be happy to work him in 5-10 minutes, soon as I get my frequency and sector in some semblance of order again. He doesn't know I've got a 737 with a cardiac arrest on board screaming into my airspace through a departure route and a STAR for a another airport, to an opposite direction landing, and I've got two other controllers and a Supe talking to me at once to coordinate everything. Meanwhile, there's an MD-80 whistling down through the west side of my airspace to SAT with smoke in the cockpit. And I'm trying to scatter departures low like quail to keep them outta the way. That actually happened to me last week!

You should all know that we have to get just as short and "rude" with our fellow controllers at times. We just say our "excuse mes" in the breakroom an hour later and that's that. We've all been on the dishing and receiving ends many times.

The busier I am, the less likely I have time to patiently and politely explain why I'm doing what I'm doing. Buy me a beer though, and I'll be happy to......

 

[enigma]

The busier I am, the less likely I have time to patiently and politely explain why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Vector4fun. Respectfully, you just knocked down a straw man. We are discussing runway incursions, and you seem to be discussing arrival/departure operations. Please understand that I, and most all professional pilots, do well understand that we don't always know all that you do about the situation. We understand that your apparent rudeness is exactly as you say, meaning that we know that you're trying to pour ten gallons into a three gallon bucket.

That situation is not what I refer to.... I refer to ground controllers who do either berate, or punish, pilots who do not know the taxi paths as well as do the controllers. You see, the ground controller knows his movement area better than he knows the back of his hand. Every inch of pavement is memorized. This is not so in my case, but the controller (sometimes) seems to think that I should know his plan and know his area, and guess what he wants; all while I drive around a hundred sixty thousand pounds of metal, most of which I can't see, from a dark cockpit as I try and read a chart the size of a postage stamp.

I'll refer back to one of my previous examples. At Denver one night, after landing and clearing the runway, I stopped to gather my bearings and clarify my instructions. The controller decided to use that opportunity to let me know that my doing so had interfered with her taxi plan and it was quite apparent that she wasn't pleased. Her original taxi instructions had been given while I was still doing sixty knots on the runway. Had she waited until I was able to devote my full attention, I may well have been able to accomplish what she wanted without clarification. You see, from my viewpoint, she created the confusion by trying to issue a clearance at exactly the wrong time. I was then forced to either: continue and risk some type of error, or stop and determine the correct action. Her beratement did nothing to ensure the situation didn't happen again; believe me, I didn't want to have to stop and admit that I was unsure of anything. The controllers words only erroded my resolve to get it right. After a few too many such incidences, a pilot finally gets the idea that keeping the ground controller happy at big, busy airports is more important than safe ops. Pretty soon, you get to where you don't stop, you just guess and go.

It seems that at places like Ohare, you get in more trouble for stopping than you do for going the wrong way. That's my point, I think that ground controllers have inadvertantly encouraged a situation that is not as safe as it should be.

If we want to reduce incursions, we should stop discouraging the actions of prudent pilots.

regards,
enigma

 

[Vector4fun]

Enigma,

Please excuse the "thread creep". I was responding to some comments about rudeness by controllers.

I'll say by all means stop and clarify. I't can be a touchy situation on a high-speed I know. But you're right, from 200' up in a control tower, it's all often as plain as day. From 20' up at a strange airport, it's a completely different view, especially at night. I know that well because I've been there, many controllers haven't. If the controller is "rude", and not just short because she/he is busy, then by all means call the supe and be polite but firm; you ain't moving til the route and instructions are clear. It really doesn't sink in to some folks until they have seen it themselves from a cockpit. EXCELLENT subject for you to bring up with each and every controller who rides in your cockpit, should the FAM program ever resume.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

TIS,



You should all know that we have to get just as short and "rude" with our fellow controllers at times.

No you don't. There's never a good reason to lose your composure and be a rude a$$hole in order to do your job professionally and effectively.

 

[Vector4fun]

No you don't. There's never a good reason to lose your composure and be a rude a$$hole in order to do your job professionally and effectively.

So, can I quote you next time some poor schmuck had to take a two hour gate hold and then got an indefinate ground stop after he finally taxied to the parallel?

 

[Peardc10]

Close Call

A fellow airline pilot was taking off at MKE, here is a airport that has had numerous runway incurssions. Anyway, he was cleared for takeoff on 19L and was just below V1, when a commuter plane crossed in front of him down the runway. The pilot of the commuter read back the hold short instructions, however, the other pilot thought he meant clear to cross the runway.

The crew of the 727 saw the plane crossing and realized that if they tried to stop, they would run right into the plane. So they rotated the airplane a little early and was able to get the plane airborne and barely missing the commuter plane. The 727 was loaded with pax and this could have been a very bad accident.

The commuter pilot was in serious trouble with this incident. The 727 crew had to change their pants.

As in previous posts, if your not sure of instructions or your situational awarness-STOP and ASK!!! Double check before you continue on a route or continue across a runway. Its not worth the end result of this story.

My 2cents..........what ever its worth.......

Fly safe

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

So, can I quote you next time some poor schmuck had to take a two hour gate hold and then got an indefinate ground stop after he finally taxied to the parallel?

Absolutely.