Rumors Fly Over Fate of Midwest Planes

[gt1900]

Hate to say it, but the fat lady is warming up it looks like...

 

[Moustache]

Hate to say it, but the fat lady is warming up it looks like...

Is Skornica back from her sabatical in hell?

 

[GOULET!]

So how long until Republic announces they are purchasing the Midwest certificate and Boeing takes back the rest of the 717? I say in the next 1-2 months. Anybody else?

 

[fam62c]

So how long until Republic announces they are purchasing the Midwest certificate and Boeing takes back the rest of the 717? I say in the next 1-2 months. Anybody else?

Tough call to try to figure out what's going on but I think it's going to be something like that. I would say it's even possible that Republic or someone else who already has operating certificates will only want the name and a few other assets with the intention of doing all the Midwest branded flying on their existing certificate(s). It doesn't seem that anyone would want to inherit many of the liabilities that go with aquiring all of Midwest i.e. HQ and hanger facilities, 717 leases and , unfortunately, a lot of employees with 15-20+ years of service. Unless somebody wants all of this stuff I think that TPG will either need to find a way to liquidate the company in pieces or declare bankruptcy for Midwest. The only other option I see would be for TPG/DAL to maintain Midwest as a marketing company with no flight operations. They would subcontract all of the lift (they are essentially already doing this) from other providers. I just don't see how you can offset the fixed costs of maintaining an operating certificate with 9 planes even in good times let alone a recession.

No matter what happens it will be a sad ending for Midwest and all the employees who have been loyal to that company for years. I can see the large carriers still providing service from MKE to their hubs but beyond that I think that AirTran will end up owning any other profitable O&D flying out of MKE. MKE is kind of a marginal second-tier market and I think that AirTran is one of the few companies with the type of cost structure necessary to be succesful with an operation of any size there. Additionally, AirTran has some connecting potential through MKE that would make their operation not totally dependent on local MKE passengers. They are already doing east and west coast flying from MKE and adding more so they can use MKE to take some of the strain off ATL by flowing connections through MKE which is a much more efficient, less delay-prone airport. The MKE community and local governments have always been good to Midwest and some of that goodwill may now accrue to AirTran as they see Midwest cutting service. Since the TPG buyout Midwest has been doing everything wrong and AirTran has been doing everything right in MKE. The part that will go away will be the network that used to feed MKE from places like MSN, GRB, ATW, GRR, IND, DSM, CWA, etc. These folks will either drive to MKE or choose another carrier that connects their cities to other hubs. If Tim Hoeksema had moved aside five or ten years ago and let a more capable, visionary CEO take over the company things might have turned out differently but this was destined to happen with him at the helm.

 

[Jetjockey]

So it's confirmed what many of us thought.................Tim H sucks as a CEO.

 

[Colonel Savage]

So it's confirmed what many of us thought.................Tim H sucks as a CEO.

Guess you mean this:


Boeing Capital to lease 25 717s to Mexico's Grupo Mexicana


SEATTLE (AP) -- Boeing Co.'s finance arm said Monday it will lease 25 717-200 aircraft to Mexican airline Grupo Mexicana de Aviacion.
The passenger jets will be used by Grupo Mexicana's low-cost subsidiary, Click Mexicana, under a multiyear arrangement. Financial terms were not disclosed.

Chicago-based Boeing, which also makes freight and military jets, faces weaker demand as airlines report lower air traffic amid the economic downturn. The deteriorating world economy has also hurt airlines' ability to secure financing for aircraft.
The airline will start receiving the planes in March, becoming the first North American 717 operator outside the United States. Boeing said it will also provide training for flight and cabin crews and maintenance staff, as well as spare parts.
The 717s will be configured to carry 104 passengers and will replace Fokker F-100s currently operated by the airline.
Tim Myers, Boeing Capital Corp. vice president for structured financing, said in a statement that the 717 offers greater fuel efficiency, lower maintenance costs, a modern flight deck and a spacious interior. Shares of Boeing rose 90 cents, or 3 percent, to close at $31 Monday.

 

[GOULET!]

Same story basically but from a different source:

Boeing's deal with Mexicana casts doubt on future of Midwest's 717 fleet

By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Mar. 9, 2009 9:45 p.m.
A group of Boeing 717 jets formerly used by Midwest Airlines Inc. will be leased to a Mexican airline, raising questions about the fate of Midwest's remaining Boeing 717s.
Boeing Capital Corp. said Monday it has agreed to lease 25 Boeing 717s to Mexicana Group.
In recent years Midwest's main fleet consisted of 25 Boeing 717s, but the Oak Creek-based airline returned 16 jets to Boeing in September to cut costs. Until last fall, Midwest was one of the larger users of Boeing 717s, which are no longer made.
Midwest still leases nine Boeing 717s. But the September return gave Boeing Capital options to require Midwest to return the remaining nine 717 aircraft with varying notice periods, according to Securities and Exchange Commission filings.
The first group of Boeing 717 jets leased to Mexicana will be the aircraft returned by Midwest, Boeing Capital spokesman John Kvasnosky said. The source of the remaining nine jets committed to Mexicana hasn't been determined yet, he said.
"That's an item for future discussion," Kvasnosky said. He declined to comment further.
Midwest plans to continue operating with the Boeing 717 jets, airline spokesman Michael Brophy said.
"In terms of a longer term fleet strategy, we've made no decisions on that front but will continue to evaluate what type of aircraft will be the best fit for Midwest," Brophy said.
Some Midwest Airlines routes that once used the Boeing 717s are now flown on smaller Embraer 170 regional jets as Midwest Connect flights operated by Republic Airways Holdings Inc.
The Boeing 717 jets account for 37% of the combined seating capacity of Midwest Airlines and Midwest Connect. The remaining seats are on Midwest Connect flights that use a dozen Embraer 170s, and a dozen Bombardier CRJ200 regional jets flown by SkyWest Inc.

 

[Horrido]

The 717s are on short term leases and you can bet they will go away at some point. The question remains what, if any, plan there is for ME's future. They are still trying to settle law suits, and ram huge pay cuts down the throats of the Pilots and Flight attendants. TPG's orders to Seabury were rumored to be "keep it operating, and keep it out of bankruptcy".
The airline seems very redundant at this point and frankly I'm suprised it's still operating. One would have to assume there is a game plan...but I suspect its not running MidEx as a stand alone airline. I think they might sell the pieces, slots, ect to Republic and may have already made a deal with them to provide expanded feeder service for Delta in return. There must be some reason Republic has invested in MidEx...its certainly not related to financial performance!
A sad end to a once wonderful airline. Regional jets and lousy service.

 

[Propsync]

There must be some reason Republic has invested in MidEx...its certainly not related to financial performance!

It's to keep Republic as the 'large RJ' provider for Delta. It's a pay for play.

 

[Colonel Savage]

It's to keep Republic as the 'large RJ' provider for Delta. It's a pay for play.

It's amazing how much money these companies can come up with when they want to facilitate some deal, but employee pay or benifits? Forget it!

Recently "bankrupt" Delta terminating pensions and then turning around and buying NWA comes to mind for some reason.

 

[Wesb737fo]

It's to keep Republic as the 'large RJ' provider for Delta. It's a pay for play.

Yep...$68/hr CA/ $37 FO at Republic versus $128/hr CA/ $85 FO at Midwest. Twice the labor cost to run a B717 over a E-170. Pathetic. Hey Midwest guys, did you guys not have a scope clause, or did management find a way around it?

 

[MCOE175]

Yep...$68/hr CA/ $37 FO at Republic versus $128/hr CA/ $85 FO at Midwest. Twice the labor cost to run a B717 over a E-170. Pathetic. Hey Midwest guys, did you guys not have a scope clause, or did management find a way around it?

Not to justify the crappy pay scales we have here at RP but what you are failing to mention that you are quoting 10 year pay at Midwest and 85 dollars an hour for an fo after 10 years is pretty bad!!!
10 year at RP is 86... that good either.

Compaired to DL Midwest is getting "Regional pay" to fly those airplanes percentage wise.

So pretty pathetic on both sides of the spectrum!

 

[donkeykong]

Yep...$68/hr CA/ $37 FO at Republic versus $128/hr CA/ $85 FO at Midwest. Twice the labor cost to run a B717 over a E-170. Pathetic. Hey Midwest guys, did you guys not have a scope clause, or did management find a way around it?

They (Seabury/TPG) found a way around it. Our mgmt didn't have the balls/intelligence to pull this off on their own. Expect more of this lawyering around scope in this industry. We (the pilots and FAs) filed a grievance and both lost.

 

[CitationLover]

Not to justify the crappy pay scales we have here at RP but what you are failing to mention that you are quoting 10 year pay at Midwest and 85 dollars an hour for an fo after 10 years is pretty bad!!!
10 year at RP is 86... that good either.

Compaired to DL Midwest is getting "Regional pay" to fly those airplanes percentage wise.

So pretty pathetic on both sides of the spectrum!

Speak the facts Republic man! Our payrates do suck, but........

Our pay rates are based on a 66 seat (thats 4 LESS than your 170) DC-9. $50 more an hour for 10yr. FO than your and CA rates almost $40 more. We have a pension and a small dc plan, in addition to trip (3.5:1) and duty rigs (2:1).

DAL's DC9 series 10yr FO rates (MD90's-DC-9's) are in the high 90's. Not that significantly higher than ours compared to yours (and they are flying a lot more than 88/99 seats), but we're getting "regional" pay? What are you smoking?

Keep justifying the sucking away of mainline jobs and routes for regional pay and benefits. Delta is next as their domestic feed can simply be transferred to a Republic Code share via Midwest. "Hey they're not code sharing with Delta, but with Midwest."

 

[MCOE175]

Speak the facts Republic man! Our payrates do suck, but........

Our pay rates are based on a 66 seat (thats 4 LESS than your 170) DC-9. $50 more an hour for 10yr. FO than your and CA rates almost $40 more. We have a pension and a small dc plan, in addition to trip (3.5:1) and duty rigs (2:1).

DAL's DC9 series 10yr FO rates (MD90's-DC-9's) are in the high 90's. Not that significantly higher than ours compared to yours (and they are flying a lot more than 88/99 seats), but we're getting "regional" pay? What are you smoking?

Keep justifying the sucking away of mainline jobs and routes for regional pay and benefits. Delta is next as their domestic feed can simply be transferred to a Republic Code share via Midwest. "Hey they're not code sharing with Delta, but with Midwest."

Its all in just! We are no mainline nor do we get paid like one... we are a regional airline and get paid like it.
But like it or not... RP saved Midex... if it wasn't for them 400 pilots and who knows how many flight attendants would be out of a job!
No one here wanted this flying and for the most part we are pretty much backing you guys on it.

 

[CitationLover]

Its all in just! We are no mainline nor do we get paid like one... we are a regional airline and get paid like it.
But like it or not... RP saved Midex... if it wasn't for them 400 pilots and who knows how many flight attendants would be out of a job!
No one here wanted this flying and for the most part we are pretty much backing you guys on it.

so 300 on the street is ok for your conscience, because you "saved" midwest? now you are the whipsaw to Delta mainline domestic through timmy.

 

[Horrido]

Actually when I was furloughed as a 12 year YX captain my rate was $144 an hour...and I was fairly junior. Our work rules were so-so...but our rates were pretty good. The new owners had their sights on our pay from day one...and our scope was...well you can see what it was.

 

[spiffomatic]

Its all in just! We are no mainline nor do we get paid like one... we are a regional airline and get paid like it.
But like it or not... RP saved Midex... if it wasn't for them 400 pilots and who knows how many flight attendants would be out of a job!
No one here wanted this flying and for the most part we are pretty much backing you guys on it.

First off, make some sense when you're posting. After that, quit trying to make Republic look like some white knight sweeping in to save the day for Midwest. That may or that may not happen, but it sure doesn't seem like it's going swimmingly so far, and either way, it's out of your hands and mine. We're stuck flying our contract and doing our jobs, and if the Midwest pilots strike, we back them up, but other than that, we're little pawns in a game that you and I don't have any say in. Maybe our contract is a fairly middle of the road regional contract, but it's being used by people to manipulate a company whose pilots negotiated a far better contract a while back, and any time an appropriately compensated pilot group loses ground, it's a sad day for the industry and our future.

 

[CitationLover]

First off, make some sense when you're posting. After that, quit trying to make Republic look like some white knight sweeping in to save the day for Midwest. That may or that may not happen, but it sure doesn't seem like it's going swimmingly so far, and either way, it's out of your hands and mine. We're stuck flying our contract and doing our jobs, and if the Midwest pilots strike, we back them up, but other than that, we're little pawns in a game that you and I don't have any say in. Maybe our contract is a fairly middle of the road regional contract, but it's being used by people to manipulate a company whose pilots negotiated a far better contract a while back, and any time an appropriately compensated pilot group loses ground, it's a sad day for the industry and our future.

amen, agreed 100%. well said.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Its all in just! We are no mainline nor do we get paid like one... we are a regional airline and get paid like it.
But like it or not... RP saved Midex... if it wasn't for them 400 pilots and who knows how many flight attendants would be out of a job!
No one here wanted this flying and for the most part we are pretty much backing you guys on it.

Look Dude, you obviously don't get it. Your statement (in bold) says it all. You are flying mainline aircraft. Don't let anyone tell you different. The E-170/190 aircraft are not regional airliners!. I'm not insulting you. I want to encourage you to demand what you should be paid.

BTW, I quoted 10 pay scales at Midwest because the junior CA has been there 10 years and FO's can't be far behind.

I was where you are about a decade ago. I had a little over 3000 total time when I got typed in a CL-65 and I always wondered why bigger jet operators were showing me their payscales and schedules. I get it now. Scope is relaxed and no one wins.

I know you don't have any choice over who you fly for, but you do have a choice over what you get paid.

Get Unified and demand higher pay or in 10 years you will be wondering why the he!l brand XYZ connection airline is flying 110 seat jets for half of your pay.