Rumor re: NJA domiciles

[SAEflyer]

Judging by some of the comments coming from FSI sources and a few in the NJ training department, I think there is no question that the overall quality has gone down. This is not to in any way put down those that have been hired recently - but the fact is, NetJets has been extremely fortunate over the last 4-5 years to hire candidates with lots of jet experience and a high degree of training (ie, airlines and military). There is very little dispute over this, I think most will agree. With the added component of domicile basing, it has clearly cut down on the number of pilots who are interested in applying to NetJets. I'm sure that each and every one of us currently on property can name a few pilots that we know of personally that would like to work for us - and are highly qualified - but refuse, from the outset, to even apply because of the domicile restriction. It's a non-starter for many.

A higher percentage of the newhire pilots today are having problems during type school (even though FSI makes it almost impossible to fail), and more notably, are having problems during the transition to the line, including during IOE. As the training department re-tools to place NetJets instructors in the sims for LOFT training (post-type ride), I think we'll be hearing a lot more about the decreasing quality of the newhires and the problems that result from that in the training pipeline (can we say, "needs additional training"?). Again, this is not a put-down for those currently being hired....but the fact is, for many years, we've been hiring candidates with 6-7000 hrs TT (most of that in turbojet aircraft) and that level of experience really shows during NJA training.

If I had to guess, I would say that NJA will NOT ease the hiring restrictions until they absolutely have to....which may be months or years down the road.

I have not heard this rumor being discussed anymore over the last few days, so I'm guessing that maybe it is just another one of "those" rumors.

I was in a class about 7 months ago of about 30 people. Although about 20 of those were from Independence, I would say that 28 if not more of the pilots in my class had considerable jet experience as well as pic jet. Seemed like a very experienced group including retired Delta and Northwest. That, however, is only one class so i'm not sure what kind of guys they are hiring now.

 

[NJApilot]

I was in a class about 7 months ago of about 30 people. Although about 20 of those were from Independence, I would say that 28 if not more of the pilots in my class had considerable jet experience as well as pic jet. Seemed like a very experienced group including retired Delta and Northwest. That, however, is only one class so i'm not sure what kind of guys they are hiring now.

No doubt, I think your class is more or less an example of the kind of new hire class we hope to have. However - and it's totally just a guess on my part - I think the circumstances have changed somewhat over the course of the last 7 months. It will take more time before we can know for sure whether this is in fact the case.

Those pilots coming from organizations that have (or had, in the case of Independence) a solid training program in place should be our target demographic for new hires. I'm afraid that's not the road we are heading down right now, unfortunately, and I fear that we are turning away a lot of good people and "filling seats" with candidates who are lesser qualified. In my opinion, this is directly attributable to the basing restrictions placed on new hires today.

In no way do I mean to infer that those without prior airline or military experience aren't qualified enough to come here, or that they won't be welcome. I've flown with many top-notch pilots here that had only a corporate aviation background. But having been an IOE capt in my fleet for some time, I do know that, as a general rule, those that have a solid training background prior to coming to NetJets adapt very well to our type of operation, they do so quicker, and generally have an easier time during training. I would like to see our past hiring trends (of the last 5 years) continue for the forseeable future.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, for what it's worth...

 

[NightHauler]

There is absolutely no plans by the Company to add domiciles. The 30% thing is so far away the Company has yet to even establish a method to determine the math. Hate to break the news.

This is typical with a new contract and work rules. First there are optimistic rumors, which after some time, turn to bitterness, which then rolls into our next barganing cycle.

If the membership feels that domiciles are important enough to bargain for, they will be bargained for. It's all up to you. Don't hold your breath for the Company to "do the right thing" and provide relief for your commute. Driving right by service centers and perfectly good working airports is something we have been doing for years here at NJA and the Company is content to allow you to suffer for them to achieve their end game of saving $$$$ on the next CBA.

 

[Diesel]

How about the guys with 20,000hrs heavy time but when a suv full of bags pull up the horror on their face is priceless.

 

[A-V-8]

A higher percentage of the newhire pilots today are having problems during type school (even though FSI makes it almost impossible to fail), and more notably, are having problems during the transition to the line, including during IOE. As the training department re-tools to place NetJets instructors in the sims for LOFT training (post-type ride), I think we'll be hearing a lot more about the decreasing quality of the newhires and the problems that result from that in the training pipeline (can we say, "needs additional training"?). Again, this is not a put-down for those currently being hired....but the fact is, for many years, we've been hiring candidates with 6-7000 hrs TT (most of that in turbojet aircraft) and that level of experience really shows during NJA training.

I am curently flying the CRJ at a 121 carrier. I will have about 2000 Hrs on the Jet when I plan to apply to NJ. Will I be behind the power curve? I will admit that the transtion from the Baron to the Jet was difficult. Is it guys with no jet time that are having trouble? Or is it just the wrong attitude? Not enough time on line? Whats the qualification?

 

[skiandsurf]

I am curently flying the CRJ at a 121 carrier. I will have about 2000 Hrs on the Jet when I plan to apply to NJ. Will I be behind the power curve? I will admit that the transtion from the Baron to the Jet was difficult. Is it guys with no jet time that are having trouble? Or is it just the wrong attitude? Not enough time on line? Whats the qualification?

Why are you going to wait to apply. Apply now. Get the process started.

As far as the "transition" goes, just my opinion, but you should do just fine. I think the biggest problems are experience and common sense.

But the previous comment about the SUV full of bags is not only funny, but oh so true.

 

[gunfyter]

I think he needs 900 more TT hrs.

I think the guys who flew night freight adjust to the line the quickest. Used to getting jacked around.

Military to airline ... I barely knew what an FBO was before I got here. I use to think airplanes ran on JP4... not Coffee ice and papers.

Call ahead for ground trans?

 

[NightHauler]

A "higher percentage of new hires are having trouble" is a comment that doesn't really paint the whole picture.

Never in the history of NJA has there been hiring at these proportions for this long of a period, so it is only to be expected that the number of "issues" we have increases.

If you do the math, and look at the checkride issues for new hires or IOE issues, you will find that they are hardly any worse than in the past, in fact are probably much better.

I can count on on hand the number of new hires since Jan 2006 that have "washed" out.

Also, you might be surprised at who has difficulty. It isn't the CRJ guys. It's the guys at the opposite ends of the spectrum: Those with too little experience (meaning, no glass, no jet, no crew time, etc) and those with too much experience (meaning retired Airline guys with three pairs of glasses and trouble learning new ways and keeping up with the pace).

My examples above are purely generic, and don't anyone take any offense. Like I said, the people who have washed out were really special cases.

The Union has a very high level of involvement in every case such as these, and even though the pilots are on Probation, the Company ensures they check every box before "discharge."

When more and more management folks and Union folks are climbing into your sim and/or aircraft each successive attempt at passing a checkride, you can be sure they are getting their ducks in a row for termination.

Like I said, of the over 600 pilots hired this year alone, only a HANDFULL have not made it.

 

[RTRHD]

Hey Gun is that DA-2000 New?

 

[Willy21]

I am curently flying the CRJ at a 121 carrier. I will have about 2000 Hrs on the Jet when I plan to apply to NJ. Will I be behind the power curve? I will admit that the transtion from the Baron to the Jet was difficult. Is it guys with no jet time that are having trouble? Or is it just the wrong attitude? Not enough time on line? Whats the qualification?

I second what SkiandSurf says, if you have the mins get your stuff in now. I put my stuff in last Jan and due to my domicile pref. I am just now getting the interview. If you wait like I did you first domicile choice might fill up or something else and you could wait like me. Best of luck.

 

[xpdriver]

I was in a class about 7 months ago of about 30 people. Although about 20 of those were from Independence, I would say that 28 if not more of the pilots in my class had considerable jet experience as well as pic jet. Seemed like a very experienced group including retired Delta and Northwest. That, however, is only one class so i'm not sure what kind of guys they are hiring now.

PHI ALPLA!!!

 

[SAEflyer]

Phi Alpha, check your pm's

 

[gunfyter]

Hey Gun is that DA-2000 New?

Still got the temporary

 

[RTRHD]

Well Congratulations man. That ought to be a change of pace.

 

[NJApilot]

A "higher percentage of new hires are having trouble" is a comment that doesn't really paint the whole picture.

Never in the history of NJA has there been hiring at these proportions for this long of a period, so it is only to be expected that the number of "issues" we have increases.

If you do the math, and look at the checkride issues for new hires or IOE issues, you will find that they are hardly any worse than in the past, in fact are probably much better.

I can count on on hand the number of new hires since Jan 2006 that have "washed" out.

I agree 100% with what you're saying....but just to clarify, in my previous post I wasn't stating that we've experienced an increased number of pilots who have washed out. Like I said in the post, the information I've received from individuals in the training department (IPs, IOE captains, etc) is that the PERCENTAGE of pilots having difficulty in various stages of the training process has gone up over the last 6 months. The training dept closely tracks the percentage of people requiring additional training, and the figure I've often heard to be the "norm" is somewhere around 15% (of the new hires who need extra training). Apparently this percentage has climbed over the last few months (granted, this may be due to other factors not directly related to the quality of the new hires - for example, it could be a tightening by FSI).

As we all know, it's really hard to wash out here at NetJets - you more or less get 3 attempts to "get it right" before they kick you to the curb. On top of that, FSI is known for being soft on initials.

Yes, as we continue to hire at the level we have over the last 6 months, the number of pilots having problems will clearly rise...but if it's true that the percentage of these pilots is also rising, then I think it's something to keep an eye on.

The recent (and ongoing) improvements to the training process, spearheaded by the Union Training Committee, will improve the quality of the training at NetJets and will also allow for us to better monitor the progress of the new hires as they exit FSI. When these changes fully take form, I think we'll then have a better idea of what type of candidate we're attracting to NJA.

Whatever the case, it sounds like it was all a bad rumor anyway!

 

[WrknStff]

I know some problems folks from the RJ ranks have had and that's doing all your sim flying from the left seat for your type. Some of these guys have been bouncing around the regional ranks for years and years without an upgrade and haven't flown left seat since before they were flight instructors. Not saying that they can't get flying with the other hand but with just four sessions before your type ride in some airplanes, its kind of hard to get the control touch.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I know some problems folks from the RJ ranks have had and that's doing all your sim flying from the left seat for your type. Some of these guys have been bouncing around the regional ranks for years and years without an upgrade and haven't flown left seat since before they were flight instructors. Not saying that they can't get flying with the other hand but with just four sessions before your type ride in some airplanes, its kind of hard to get the control touch.

Why is that?

 

[Wacopilot]

The recent (and ongoing) improvements to the training process, spearheaded by the Union Training Committee, will improve the quality of the training at NetJets and will also allow for us to better monitor the progress of the new hires as they exit FSI. When these changes fully take form, I think we'll then have a better idea of what type of candidate we're attracting to NJA.

Whatever the case, it sounds like it was all a bad rumor anyway!

Maybe the fact that we make out newhires wait 3-6 months before they get in the airplane after FSI is a factor???

Waco

 

[acaTerry]

Frankly, after the vast contract improvements, the domicile issue is now the only one that keeps me from applying there. I hope it changes.

SEE?!! Yet another well qualified (not so much TT but has several tyes by the looks of things), probably good guy to work here that won't. I know more people who I'd love to get on here that won't take it for the very same reason....a shame.

 

[NJApilot]

Maybe the fact that we make out newhires wait 3-6 months before they get in the airplane after FSI is a factor???

Waco

That's a possibility, although it won't be a factor for much longer. Once the new changes to NJA training begin to take effect (within the next couple of months), the typical 3-6 month break before actually flying the plane should (in theory) evaporate. Initial newhires, as well as those who bid to another fleet, will soon go from the sim checkride straight to LOFT (basically like we do now, although the LOFTs will be conducted by NJA instructors - and the sessions themselves will become much more line-oriented). Then, after completion of LOFT and more than likely a couple of weeks off (give or take a few), the trainees will be sent straight to the line to commence IOE. The days of attending 3 days of training in CMH before IOE are coming to a close.

To all of those that complained about the 4-6 month paid vacation they received before starting IOE, your wish is granted!