ROTC or the 'Zoo'

[Joshrk22]

Hey,

Which route did you or would military guys go? I'm a junior this year and I need to start thinking about college. I was trying to decide between civilian and military. I think so far I'm leaning towards AD AF until my committment is up, then on to an airline job while flying for the Guard.

I'm currently a Junior in HS, with a 3.892 GPA and a 26 on the ACT (took it as a Soph. and I have to take it again this year) with a lot of tough classes. I'm involved in many clubs and leadership positions and I play 3 sports a year. I also work and I fly during my off days. Yes, I am very busy, but I like pushing myself I guess.

I think I would rather do ROTC, because I get to have a normal college life; hang with my girlfriend and friends, flight instruct, go to football & basketball games, etc. Just grow as a person and I think the Academy wouldn't offer me that.

I am aware they get more flying positions offered then what ROTC does. But, I think if I bust my butt I can get a spot through ROTC.

Another thing, by the time I graduate I will have enough AP classes and college courses finished (enrolling in Community college this summer) that I will be able to skip my freshman year of college. Will this hurt me when it comes to getting an SQ/CC recommendation since I have not progressed through all 4 years of the ROTC program.

Also, how does the whole ROTC scholarships work? I want to attend U of M - Ann Arbor or University of Chicago (I think they have a ROTC program), but I think these would be highly competitve for a flying spot.

Thoughts?

 

[Pistlpetet]

You should apply to everything. You sound like a smart kid. Why not apply to the AF and Navy Academies? You can always turn them down, but you can never go back again and "Wish" you had applied, or wonder what if. You can be in this position only once in your life. Have all options covered. I am sure there are not many ring knockers that will say they wished they did not go. It is a very impressive accomplishment. Maybe not to all guys on this board, but it is to the general population.

If you do the ROTC route, you also might want to join the Guard/Reserve while you are in college. You will learn a thing or two about the military, make lots of connections, AND make more money then your other 2LT friends in flight school. You will have already 4 years time in service for pay purposes.

Most important. Don't listen to anyone who says you can't do anything. Just go for it!

 

[airgator]

Go Guard or reserve and go to AMS (academy of military science) for 6 weeks to get your commision. You choose what plane you'll fly and where.

 

[Joshrk22]

Thanks for the productive responses.

Airgator,

What exactly is AMS? Never heard of it...

 

[Ill Mitch]

Thanks for the productive responses.

Airgator,

What exactly is AMS? Never heard of it...

It is the Guard version of OCS.

 

[Deuce130]

If you're a junior in HS and cannot say that you definitively want to go to a service academy, then you probably shouldn't go. Most of the people who go there have wanted to since they were 12. I myself didn't make up my mind until early in my senior year, but that had alot to do with my brother going there also. The academy is not a great place to be, but it's a great place to be from. Looking back on my time there, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. You're going to hear tons of comments about growth, maturity, social development, blah blah blah. The biggest ranters against cadets and grads usually have something else against them or a chip on their shoulder about something unrelated. There are opportunities for fun at the academy, though most of them have to wait until your junior and senior year. Good luck.

 

[frog_flyer]

do rotc. a pilot slot is a pilot slot is a pilot slot. Everyone ends up the same in the end.

and get that act up

 

[highside]

I'm an academy grad currently flying F-15C's. If I could do it again, I'd do what gator said. Go guard. My four years at the academy I'll never get back. A lot of my fighter pilot buddies tell stories of football games, partying, and doing the things that college kids should do. I've got some great stories about marching to lunch every day and sitting confinements for missing morning formation etc... It may be slightly easier to get a pilot slot at the academy, but you sound like you have your sh*t together so you'll have no problems getting to fly through ROTC or the guard. If you are in the guard you'll have a MUCH better chance of staying in the cockpit too. Active duty has lot's of non-flying jobs that you could get thrown into. My sentiments are echoed by more than just me by the way, I hear guys wishing they were in the guard every day...

 

[h82land]

I was in the same position you are in when I was in high school. I wanted to go into the air force but I wasn't sure how. After deciding the academy wasn't for me, I decided to do ROTC. After a year of ROTC, I learned about the reserves/guard and decided that was the best option for me. I went to OTS/UPT and I'm now flying C-17's about 20 min from home and flying RJ's for my civilian job. It's the best of both worlds!!

I would suggest the guard/reserve to anyone that wants the flexibility to what suits their schedule, but is patient enough to wait out getting a slot. It's much more competitive and you can choose (for the most part) your airframe and location. It's a great deal. Feel free to PM me with any questions. Best of luck!

 

[Deuce130]

If you do decide to go guard, consider joining the unit ASAP. Especially if you have a local one. Go to "boot camp" or whatever they call it these days before your senior year in high school. Work for the unit (crew chief, admin, commander support staff, whatever) while you're in college, then start angling for that pilot slot. We've got a couple of pilots in my reserve unit that started out as loadmasters, with one more finishing up college now.

 

[JimNtexas]

Go Guard or reserve and go to AMS (academy of military science) for 6 weeks to get your commision. You choose what plane you'll fly and where.

What he said.

 

[Scrapdog]

Go Academy!

Josh - you sound like a smart kid with a good outlook and with some solid goals. Here's my 2 cents for you from an Academy Grad's viewpoint.

Did it suck while I was there? YES! Was it tough...especially the first 2 years? YES! Were there a lot of chicks there, much less hot chicks? NO! Was it probably the best decision of my life? YES, YES, YES!

The bottom line is the Academy is probably the toughest way to earn your little gold bar...however you will form bonds with other cadets there that will be more solid than any friendship you've had yet. You will always have that pride when you get your diploma from the Academy that no one can take away from you. And most importantly...no matter what anyone says, there will always be some way it will help you in your career, be it civilian or military, when your employers/commanders know you're an Academy grad and you carry yourself well (i.e. proud of your heritage but not a jerk). By all means, if you have your heart set on being an air force pilot and/or having a solid military career, go the way of the Academy.

 

[Joshrk22]

Great advice here! One thing I'm curious about now is the guard. Should I contact a local guard unit to find out how to get started? I am totally lost on how the guard operates and how to get a slot.

 

[Joshrk22]

Forgot to ask, what is a normal day like flying for the guard? Do you fly more than AD? Is it the 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year kinda' thing?

 

[AlbieF15]

Short summary:

Do I want to march around, live in hell for a year, and when the one girl I do get to sleep with me my freshman year sneaks over the my room hope my roomies don't rat me out (while they watch from the closet?). Eventually compete for a pilot slot and go to UPT.

Do I want to go to college, have an apartment, try 1000 new things, have friends who while waaaaay too flaky to be officers BUT will make this a very rich an interesting four years. Put up with ROTC BS one day a week for 2 years then go a fun 2 month camp, followed by ROTC class and BS 3 times a week for 2 years... WHILE you meet girls, expereince what your first real FREEDOM tastes and feels like? Oh...and compete for a pilot slot and go to UPT?

I'd go Guard. Next I'd do ROTC. AFA was never on my list. I was too stupid to know about Guard the first time. According to my bible studies we don't get reincarnated--but if God ever recycles me as a comsic joke I'll be the pimple faced teenager enlisting in the hometown fighter unit...

I've known a ton of great guys who did the academy, and most have ZERO regrets. Talk to them and get their take. However--those four years at Auburn were a really neat transition from kid to young adult, and I wouldn't take anything (including my F15 flying) for the experience. You just have to follow your own heart...

 

[KCPilot]

Go Guard!

 

[tomgoodman]

Ots?

Nobody's mentioned OTS. Are they still operating and getting UPT slots?

 

[Joshrk22]

How do I go about getting a guard slot? Should I call the local unit? I don't really want to go enlisted first during college and then not getting a pilot slot after and being stuck. As a junior in H.S., I think I might be a little young to talk to the CO there and visit them.

 

[Kikuchiyo]

a pilot slot is a pilot slot is a pilot slot.

And a 2Lt is a 2Lt is a 2Lt. Your commisioning source doesn't matter once you're done. Like Scrapdog said, some Commanders might care. But those are usually the ones who can't give up living in their glory days to begin with. For the most part, most people don't care. And the farther you are along in your carreer, the less meaningful it becomes. What matters then is what you've done recently, not where you went to college 10, 15, or 20 years ago. The connections you make won't help much as a 2Lt when all of them are 2Lt's also. And, to repeat, once it's been a few years, you'll have made enough new connections among unit buddies to suffice.

One of the most frustrating things on the first day of UPT was asking that laid-back guy what he wanted to get at graduation. His answer was, "Oh, I'm going to my C-141 at my reserve unit." He didn't have the stress of having to be in the top of the class to get the airplane he wanted or be stuck with something or somewhere undesireable.

I went to USAFA. I could have taken the ROTC scholarship to Florida. There's no way to know what might've happened in the long run, but if I had it all to do over again, I'd've been a Gator. And if I had known about the ANG or Reserve, that probably would have been an even better way to go, too. Good luck, either way.

 

[KCPilot]

It worked for me, enlisted in the reserve, went to school (they paid for some of it) and then got a pilot slot. It took awhile for the slot due to various things, but I finally got it! You just have to want it. Good luck.

 

[ExAF]

Albie

Albie,
Tried to send you a PM but your in-container is full.

 

[stonewall]

I think you can do enlisted in the Guard and ROTC at the same time. We have a guy who works in the unit and is ROTC guy at VMI. You can try to get pilot slots in both at the same time and see which one pans out.

Why go to the Academy? To be a career Air Force Officer! Just kidding. Seriously, I had a guy tell my class that you should NOT be at the Academy for 1) the free education 2) the prestige 3) to play intercollegiate sports 4) your parents wanted you to go or (the kicker) 5) to just be a pilot. Of course, EVERYONE I KNEW was at the Academy for one of those 5 reasons.

I think the class of 2010 that just came is around 50% pilot qualified. Your chances, in my opinion, to be an Air Force pilot (and then Guard/airline like me) are greater from AFA. It can be done from other avenues, but USAFA will likely be the greater odds. Up to you.

And, no, I do not regret going to Air Force over UVa, Hampden-Sydney, Cornell, Penn, or even 'Bama (Dad's alma mater). I don't feel my social skillz were stunted, and life since USAFA has been berry, berry, good to me. Would I do it again? Tough question, but probably yes, for the simple reason that in my year group I would NOT have gotten a pilot slot from ROTC. Good luck.

 

[BoilerUP]

Start filling out paperwork now if you can for an AFROTC scholarship...and yes, get that ACT up! A 29 overall (34 science) got me a Type II AFROTC scholarship for a general major (non engineering or meteorology). If I'd have gotten a 30, I could have secured a full ride. Study hard, and do better on the reading & comprehension than I did!!!

Until DoDMERB (the medical people) bounced me out of ROTC, it was an absolute *blast* if you could "play the game". I made lifelong friends from freshmen to the super-seniors and the butter bar we had who was a AFA grad working on a Masters in Physics. Still did football games, parties, intramural sports, and led a regular college life...I was just up earlier and worked out more than my hard-drinking non ROTC counterparts.

After getting let go from ROTC, I went Guard and thought I'd found heaven. I was lucky enough to get hired off the street for a UPT slot, and had AMS & UPT dates before Medical Flight Screening found my interocular pressure was too high and I got DQ'd. AGAIN. If I knew at 18 what I knew at 22, I'd have enlisted in the ANG my senior year of high school, attended ROTC while in college, busted my ass academically & in the unit and hopefully commissioned right into a Guard pilot slot.

Oh, one more thing...if you've got *anything* in your medical history that might even possibly disqualify you, be very very careful what you report. Don't ever lie or be dishonest, but if it doesn't effect your health or performance, nobody needs to know. Trust me...thats what hosed me out of ROTC.

 

[Joshrk22]

Could some of you ROTC guys post where you went to school and what your scores looked like to get a slot? (AFOQT, GPA, Hours in the Logbook, and how active)

What if you get a full ride but are DQ'd for a slot your senior year, do you still have to serve? I wouldn't mind going guard and flying commerically too, it just seems impossible from what I hear to get a slot through ANG.

How many slots are offered to each detachment? When I finish college I plan on having the 200+ hours of flight time so I can max my points out on that. Will this help me much towards my PCSM, from what I hear, it will.

I'm thinkin' the ROTC way is the way for me, but we'll see; just gotta' bust my a$$ for a UPT slot through there.

Is it possible to get a 99 on your PCSM and not get selected? Just curious...

 

[frog_flyer]

You are contracted after you return from field training, which most times is when you return to school for your junior year.

PCSM is only 15% (or is it 10?) of your OM score, so yes it is possible. What matters is your commander's ranking. That's 50% of your OM, and if you suck balls and he hates you, you are not going to get a slot.

I take the afoqt on saturday, got 30 on act, and 60 hours and ppl. 15 months I'll know if I have a slot or not!

Slots aren't allocated to certain detachments. There will be some dets that go 7/7 and others that will go 0/7. Your pilot selection is independent of the selection of anyone else in your det.

the 200 hours, yes it maxes out the pcsm. Is it worth the 10k to get the extra hundred hours? no.

But, my CC said that in his IP exp, there was a noticeable difference between guys with <150 and >150 hours. I doubt I'll have that many by the time my packet goes out, but I will be above 100.

 

[HarryShadow]

Could some of you ROTC guys post where you went to school and what your scores looked like to get a slot? (AFOQT, GPA, Hours in the Logbook, and how active)

What if you get a full ride but are DQ'd for a slot your senior year, do you still have to serve? I wouldn't mind going guard and flying commerically too, it just seems impossible from what I hear to get a slot through ANG.

How many slots are offered to each detachment? When I finish college I plan on having the 200+ hours of flight time so I can max my points out on that. Will this help me much towards my PCSM, from what I hear, it will.

I'm thinkin' the ROTC way is the way for me, but we'll see; just gotta' bust my a$$ for a UPT slot through there.

Is it possible to get a 99 on your PCSM and not get selected? Just curious...

I didn’t decide to join ROTC until late my sophomore year in college. I had like a 2.7 GPA in high school, no idea what my ACT scores were, I didn’t take any honors classes (in case my 2.7 GPA didn’t clue you into that), not a single hour flying a plane, etc…I just cared about playing sports. So, when I walked into the ROTC office my sophomore year in college, I brought nothing to the table…except that I had some SA, good athletic background, and was a pretty solid kid!!! I had to take the AFOQT twice just to get my scores up to the minimum level for a pilot. Basically, I didn’t know what to expect…I just rolled with the punches!!!

So, I had to play a quick game of catch up…went to field training that summer, got DG; scored 470+ on every PFT I took; volunteered as much as I could; dang near got a 4.0 every semester; showed my PAS I was legit and just busted my tail…got the pilot slot one year after joining and never looked back! Above all things, I was a good dude (I think) and legitimately tried to help others without sucking up to every officer/NCO in my Det (like many do). So, what I’m trying to say is…there is no magic formula to succeed as a cadet, officer, pilot, etc.!!! It just boils down to good ole fashion effort and accepting nothing but 100%from yourself!!!.

As far as getting DQ’d your senior year (assuming you’ve completed field training or are on scholarship)…if you get DQ’d from the AF because of a medical occurrence, I don’t think you’d owe the AF a dime. If you just get DQ’d as a pilot candidate but are still medically qualified to become an officer, then you still serve (and you should WANT to still serve). Personal goals aside, the USAFA, ROTC, OTS doesn’t exist just to produce pilots…it’s exists to produce officers who support the overall AF mission!!! You sound like a bright kid, so I’d encourage you to give series consideration to what you’d do in the AF if the flying thing doesn’t work out for whatever reason.

Good luck to you!

 

[JimNtexas]

I went to USAFA. I could have taken the ROTC scholarship to Florida. There's no way to know what might've happened in the long run, but if I had it all to do over again, I'd've been a Gator. And if I had known about the ANG or Reserve, that probably would have been an even better way to go, too. Good luck, either way.

In my first squadron I was crewed with a pilot who went to Florida on a ROTC scholarship. He's a two star general now. One of the good ones.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Ever notice.....?

One thing I could not get over in flight school was how EVERY IP had "jet grades." It was one of the first things brought up in every brief. Hack, WX, NOTAMS, "I had jet grades." Dudes must just love vert rep!!!

Similarly, every slam on any of the service academies is almost always prefaced with, "I could have gone to The Academy, but..." What does that tell you?

Go guard if you just want to fly a cool airplane. Fellow Grads I knew / know from the AFA who hated, and thus bad-mouthed the zoo the most, thought of it purely as a means to an end (UPT) only to wind up in a missile silo in ND!!!

BTW, Albie, you strayed from your usual outstanding, well-informed posts with second or third--hand Academy rhetoric. There are plenty of disgruntled AFA / USNA guys just waiting to run their schools into the ground first-hand, but they EARNED the right to do so (by marching to meals, spending a month in Europe on the AF's dime, skiing every other weekend, flying in everything from gliders to F-16s, free-fall skydiving, dropping out of Russian after the wall fell, standing an ORI or SAMI after an all-nighter, having to take thermodynamics as an English major, learning about satellite orbital patterns (boo, hiss), etc, etc, etc and YES, waiting (lurking) in the closet hoping the roommate gets lucky ).

$.02

 

[AlbieF15]

Bob,

I didn't know I had to "earn" the right to say I didn't want to go to college in what closely resembles boy's school. The "have sex sex while my roomies watched" anecdote was second hand. I never got into that kind of stuff--one of the reasons I had my own apartment in college vice living in a dorm or a fraternity house. A gentleman doesn't talk. He certainly doesn't humilate his date by turning her into a porn show.

All that aside--you are correct. An academy cadet gets some awesome opportunities. I've probably flown a dozen academy cadets around in F-15s if I've flown one. I certainly never got to do that as ROTC cadet. I also flew gliders--but I paid for it--and I'm envious whenever I meet an AFA grad who was a soaring IP. What an awesome deal! Another good bro, now a squadron commander, was on the academy parachute team. A current F-15 WIC grad was an academy cadet visiting our squadron and was at my F15 callsign party in Alaska. We were later FTU IPs together. So--absolutely--there are some really cool opportunities if you get involved.

When pilot slots get tight--we also know the AFA will get most of them. So--a little luck and little SA on the current pilot demand will also be important for those making such an important choice.

Again--AFA has some great benefits. However, I completely dug being a real college student, doing real college student stuff. My gold bars still got me in the door at UPT, and I still got to fly my dream fighter. Lots of ways to get there... I didn't get to fly an F-15 in ROTC, but I did kayak the Natahala River several times. I didn't visit a missile silo, but ran down to Panama City and made several SCUBA trips offshore and in some local springs. Life is rich, and I figured I was going to enough in the military when I got there, so I wanted to do some other things along the way. I also had a couple of jobs--you know--real ones! If anything, they gave me an even greater appreciation for the fact I get to make a living flying now.

And yeah...I had "jet grades..." In my day at UPT it was called "FAR qual'd", or Fighter/Attack/Recon. I don't remember ever bragging about it--just enjoying the heck out of the last 20 years of flying the OV-10 and F-15.

 

[Joshrk22]

When do you have to sign the contract for AFROTC? If you don't get a scholarship do you pay for the AFROTC classes?