Rocky Mountain flying

[starvingcfi]

i just got a gig flying a pa28 from south central texas to central california. then, flying a pa38 from there to portland, oregon...back down to south central texas. my question is my route. i haven't pulled out a wac yet, but i wanted to get some opinions.

is there any type of route that everyone knows about in the west? as far as flying from portland to texas, should i go north, south, or right through the rockies? keep in mind i'll be in a pa38....tomahawk. again just wanted to get some opinions from people who know the areas. thanks a lot.

starvingcfi

 

[TurboS7]

Depends on how much time you have(real time 1 week or whatever) I flew an Eurcoupe from Longview, TX to Longview, WA then to Calgary, Albta. I loved it and had a ball. (In 1975)You have to go VFR due to MEA's and icing, but it is no big deal. Weather will be your biggest issue but most of the time the weather is great except for a couple of places. You must be patient and be flexible.I have to run but I can give you some great info along with others on this board.

 

[boxcar]

I'd take the southern route thru El Paso and Guadalupe Pass.

 

[brucek]

Hi starvingcfi,

I'm a private pilot in the Denver area. No doubt you have charts showing MEA's etc. However, at this time of year (through March) when we get either the Pacific cold fronts backing up on the western side of the Rockies, or the jet lies over this area; there's lots going on with wind and some massive downdrafts on the lee (east) side of those big rocks up there. Every year we get someone in a similar aircraft that under-estimates what's going on up there (we had a C172 fly into a mountain last winter, albeit a smaller a/c; also a "flat-lander", this time out of Canada).

I would take the advice of another poster here- take the southern route. Following I-80 (northern route) isn't too bad either, although the blizzards rage up there from now on.

Let me know if I can help further.

Bruce.
BJC, Jeffco, CO.

 

[RockyMnt1]

Mountain flying

To all pilots thinking of flying in the Rocky Mountains:

As a CFI with a very substantial amount of mountain flying time, I would recommend staying out of the Rocky Mountains unless you have:

1) Aerobatic experience
2) a mountain checkout by a competent instructor

Yes, this checkout is certainly not required by the FAA and I am not trying to drum up business. I am just trying to avoid yet another aircraft incident in this area. Flying situations in the mountains are typically encountered unexpectedly and very rapidly and can require some very aggressive maneuvering to execute your plan B. Here are some things to think about:

1) Are you prepared to spend the night (or a few days)comfortably at 12000 msl at 0 degrees F with a windchill of -30 degrees F?? Can the PA28 carry that much equipment? The days are short and the nights are awfully long and your plane is but a speck on the mountainside.
2) Do you have the flexibility to alter your flight by several days?
3) Have you ever been in a 2500 ft/min downdraft at Vx at 11000 msl with full power with the ground approaching rapidly? Kind of a helpless feeling...
4) Do you know where those downdrafts are?
5) Have you ever been in inverted flight? Rotors can provide that experience for you.
6) Do you know how to approach/cross ridgelines/passes?
7) Are you very familiar with mountain weather characteristics?

As PIC, you get to make this mountain route decision. As a rescuer, I get to decide when/if I come get you. I would rather not have to make that decision in the first place.

Just one last thing to think about. There is a blind canyon up here that is littered with the carcasses of no less than 14 airplanes. Everyone of those pilots thought that they knew their position and the capabilities of themselves and their aircraft. They really wanted the valley one ridgeline to the north.

Pick your time in the mouintains very carefully.

 

[TurboS7]

Two routes going that would be fine-ELP-TUS-PHX-LAS-RNO through the pass to the valley. The problem you will have out of RNO will be the winds, check the 180 foot winds if they exceed 30 kts you'll need to wait. Once you get to the valley no big deal just smoke and fog. This time of year the valley can get socked in for days hence route number 2 would be better. ELP-TUS-PHX-LAS-RNO-Palmdale to Santa Barbara-follow the coast up the your destination. Out of PDX fly the Columbia Gorge to the DALLS from there to Pendelton down to Boise and Ogden,UT. From there you can go I-80 or go south via 4 corners and ABQ and west Texas. This time of year I would go the latter. At no time will you be doing close in terrain flying so it a great route to get your feet wet. Theis time of year density altitude is not a big factor. Great flight enjoy it, wish I could do stuff like that, have fun.

 

[starvingcfi]

wow. great responses. as far as do i know where the downdrafts are? that's sort of why i'm asking. i would like a little insight into mountain flying. i'm in florida, so i'm really not gonna get a chance to get "mountain flying instruction." anyway, thanks for the responses. keep them coming. a lot to learn in less than a month.

starvingcfi

 

[RichO]

I'd take the southern route, besides your from florida, so there will be warmer weather on the southern side. I've had a little experience flying in the rockies, and though it's a blast in the Herc, in a little PA-28 I wouldn't recommend it. All the previous posters had some very valid concerns. I think someone brought up some points about the jet coming over the rockies, pretty much any time you get 25knots or more from the west coming over the mountains your going to get some interesting weather. This is pretty much the winter time...........so, I would follow all of the snowbirds down south and have a good time.....I hear Arizona is nice this time of year....besides, your heading down from Portland, right, I'm from the NW myself...just follow Highway 101 down to California ....talk about an awesome view......just watch out for the low clouds, and the pacific fronts coming in.....What airport are you flying to/from in the portland area?

 

[brucek]

as far as do i know where the downdrafts are? that's sort of why i'm asking

This is a little like me flying to FL, and it's the hurricane season, and I'm asking about that. Several of us that live in this area have told you to stay away from here unless you get some specialized instruction. This wx in the Rockies in nothing that you can negotiate with, not at this time of year.

I've posted a URL here for NCAR (National Center for Atmospheric Research), I know thay do a lot of wind and turbulence modelling (they're about 4 miles from me here in Boulder). You might ponder as to why they do their wind and turbulence modelling here, rather than somewhere else in the US.

http://www.ncar.ucar.edu/ncar/

Try searching on "downdraft". although you'll need to be a PhD to understand it

I'm no wx expert, other than private pilot required. I do know that most small GA planes based here would not consider crossing the mountains here at this time of year unless they have specialized training. In fact my club prohibits it, it's a reason for expulsion.

The problem in this (Denver/Boulder) area is that the easterly profile of the mountains is extremely steep, it goes from 5,300' here at home, up to 13,000 in less than 30 miles. Anything that generates a westerly wind flow (frontal storms that stall out on the western side - that's why the ski areas are over there), or the jet (which often appears around now) will produce significant mountain waves, rotors and turbulence on the lee side (east) (just like on the downsteam side of a rock in moving water- although this is more like the Niagara Falls ).

As PIC, the final decision is your's. I do commend you for asking about this though- most just come and do it, many of which leave in wooden boxes. Don't ever under-estimate the mountains.

Good luck with your decision. One final piece- when the jet arrives, the winds start without warning, very suddenly from calm to gusts up to 60-70 Kts. The one tell-tale is the lenticulars, so if you do end up here, watch for them.

Bruce.
BJC, Jeffco, CO.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Honestly, if I was you, I'd plan a stop at the first mountainous destination to get at least a little high density altitude/mountain flying instruction.

Here in Albuquerque I'd say I see an airplane get screwed up at least once a week due to somebody that just won't take that hour or two of instruction to at least get them started on the basics of this stuff. Usually, they just need three new tires, but it's not uncommon to see worse, or to see the aircraft do things that could quite potentially be really, really awful.

You aren't going to be doing any real heavy duty mountain flying. Trust me, you aren't going into any one way strips, you aren't going to be crossing any of the high passes. You'll do fine planning your flight better than that. I'd recommend the four corners/Albuquerque route Turbo mentioned above, it's not as out of the way as Tuscon, but it isn't unreasonably high either (you can easily fly it at 10,000.

I'd echo the sentiments about giving yourself a lot of time too, we've had obscured mountains here in New Mexico for the past week or so. You can't cross a pass if the clouds are covering it, or the mountains around it. But you can fly in the wide river valleys safely and easily if you have at least some idea of what you're looking for.

Let us know if there's more we can do for you, but don't discount the idea of taking just a bit of high density altitude instruction. The plane doesn't perform anything like it does in Florida, and that 65 KIAS works out to moving around 80 or so across the ground to land--I'd definately want a local pilot int he plane telling me that such things are normal the first time or two. Have fun!

Dan

 

[tarp]

Just another vote for "think this through carefully before you attempt it".

I flew a PA28 literally cross country (NY to Seattle to Las Vegas and return) during a wonderful summer vacation.

You are talking about taking on the Rockies in winter. The folks aren't kidding about winds and temperatures. I considered myself a strong "East Coast" mountain flyer with a lot of experience in eastern Tenn and western NC. The summertime rockies did things to my PA28, I wouldn't have thought possible. It's not fun going downhill at 1,200fpm with the engine going full out and the nose pitched right on Vx.

You are going to need relatively calm days and routes that use a great amount of either valley or coastal protection. There was a note about standing lenticular clouds. If you see them you shouldn't even have the plane in the air. They are the "worst case" scenario. The "rotor clouds" are another indicator but I can tell you that 50% of the time, you will have no visual indication of the turbulence rolling down the mountain.

You should think of the mountains as the rear deck spoilers on NASCAR racers. The air passes up over the top of the spoiler and then curls down and around giving a push on the back side. Great for race cars that need a push - pretty bad for light airplanes. The faster the car goes (or the wind passes over the mountain) the greater the push.

The east coast flyers have a rule that you should be a thousand feet over the top of the mountain for every 10 KTs that the wind is blowing. So you have a 6,000ft mtn and a 30 kt wind, you need to be at 9,000ft to be out of the mountain "wave" of turbulence. So then you go out west where you have a 12,000ft mtn and a 60KT wind in an airplane with a service ceiling of 13,000ft. Not a good combination.

There are books and courses on all of this stuff, but I liken it to flying in icing conditions - you need to go out with someone who knows and understands these phenomena and then learn by ratcheting up your experience level. Just going out on a "fun" delivery flight in a Tomahawk ain't going to cut it.

Good luck.

 

[Joseph II]

Have you guys noticed the lenticulars picking up in intensity lately?

I drive between Colorado Springs and Denver and have been seeing quite a few of them in the past few weeks.

 

[bigD]

well starvingcfi - I think you have your answer. Take the southern route. I've done that a couple of times, and it's a nice flight. I can't imagine tackling the Rockies in winter in a PA-28, let alone a PA-32.

 

[brucek]

Have you guys noticed the lenticulars picking up in intensity lately?

Yes- the lenticulars have been quite spectacular in recent weeks. Evidence that the "winds of winter" are almost upon us! Those lenticular formations sure do look spectacular, sometimes the leading edge follows the contour of the Rockies for more than 100 miles.

Bruce.
BJC, Jeffco, CO.

 

[f18pugsley]

Be careful as you approach the southern edge of the Sierras in CA! There is a reason the Sierra Wave Project in the '50s was done out of Bishop (BIS) and the Perlan Project is being flown out of BIS, California City, and New Zealand! The current world record for gliders (>49,000ft) was set in this area.

A friend of mine earned a Gold Soaring badge for altitude gain (>15K' gained) in a Cessna 170 (He figured out a way to prove the engine was off, flew his c170 out of Inyokern airport as a powered glider, flew into the wave, secured his engine and flew to 28K'). During the Sierra Wave Project, the P-38 they used for WX Recce was running low on fuel, but could not land because the airfield (BIS) was obscured due to high winds. The pilot secured both engines and soared a P-38 for several hours until the field cleared and he could come down! A glider was also ripped apart during the Sierra Wave Project after getting caught in the rotor (the pilot was wearing a chute and eventually landed unhurt after getting recirculated for a while).

I have also spoken with people who have been at idle, Vmax, and climbing through 18K involuntarily because they were caught in the wave.

The Lenticular clouds are cause for celebration by glider pilots, but not someplace to be caught without knowledge of what is going on. Unfortunately, I had to work during this last front that came through. There were some awesome wave clouds!

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

This far south I haven't seen a Standing Lenticular for a long time. But last time I was a-climbing in Northern NM, one formed on top of us and got nasty. After we summited and descended, there were Lenticulars along the East side of every mountain to the north....

One more reason to take the southern route!

One other bit of advice I'd give: don't go to the big international airports. What you want is an airport with a healthy contingent of airport bums who have flown the local area quite a while. There's a reason pilots in the mountains can name every pass, river, and mountain in a fifty mile radius--it matters. This doesn't mean you need to shoehorn your airplane into a 2400' strip or anything, just try to avoid anywhere that doesn't seem like a place with coffee in the pot and a bunch of pilots telling lies in the lobby.

Oh yeah, you hear about the good updrafts for gliders? That air has to come down someplace. Half goes up, half goes down. Make sure you don't end up where it goes down, and always give yourself a healthy ability to turn around out of the going down part.

Dan

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

wow, good thread.... I lost a 1000 feet the other day in a downdraft and thought that was bad...

 

[utahpilot]

I'd say it depends on your experience.

I have tons of hours in the area between BOI and LAS via OGD, SLC, PVU, CDC and SGU. This is basically a North South route along the mountains. I've been on lots of XC and sent lots of students in these areas at all times of the year. Just don't go East over the Wasatch without doing some planning ahead.

it's not that bad, though. You can stick to airways and still be safe while taking in some awesome scenery.

have fun!