RJDC Update

[Boeingman]

Sounds like the final desperate cry of someone stuck in their regional job with no hope of ever making it to a major. So maybe you and your RJDC brothers (all 3 of them) can continue to hold out hope of destroying as many mainline jobs as possible so no one else will be able to have them, either.

Maybe it's time you take your ball and go home.

I think it is Surplus and his TWO brothers. I'll guess he is one of the plaintiffs in the case. No one in their right mind would spend as much time writing as he does about it unless they were DIRECTLY involved.

That aside, you got right to the heart of it.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hey Trainerjet,
If these things are so boring, then why has every single rjdc string been more popular than ANY other subject on this board?

You guys can discount us, but we are not just three people. I talk to rjdc supporters every day. Of course, I work for an airline, and many of you only see yourselves as "regional" pilots, hoping to someday work for a major airline.

 

[surplus1]

I think it is Surplus and his TWO brothers. I'll guess he is one of the plaintiffs in the case. No one in their right mind would spend as much time writing as he does about it unless they were DIRECTLY involved.

Your guess is wrong but that's in keeping with much of what you've said.

Surplus is NOT one of the plaintiffs. I am involved for two reasons:

1) I'm a unionist at heart. I believe in unions and their purpose. I hate to see what has been a good union perverted and destroyed by misguided leaders who serve their own political interests and power, instead of the interests of the membership. I oppose any form of corruption in a labor union.

2) I'm a Comair pilot and my fellow pilots are being injured by the union's activities. I will do what I can to stand with them and attempt to right the wrongs.

I have nothing to gain personally from the outcome and nothing to lose. I'm just doing what I believe is right and I'm not concerned about whose mainline pin-feathers get ruffled. I enjoy defending the weak from the predatory behavior of the strong.

Question to you: Is standing up for what is right something that is lost on mainline pilots? Is $$ the only thing that motivates you? IF so, that's a sorry state of affairs. The founders of our union were not of that ilk.

BTW, you "quoted" trainerjet but I can't seem to find those remarks in any of his posts. Did you import them from another thread? Can you help me find where he said that?

Just so you'll both know, a mainline job isn't something I want, need or envy. BTDT and got the T-shirt. It never swelled my head, thank God.

 

[trainerjet]

Surplus

Don't know what happened to the original post, but Boeingman has it in it's entirety in his imported quote.

SDD

I work for an airline, too. What's your point????

 

[surplus1]

Trainerjet

OK. Apparently your post was somehow deleted from this thread.

Anyway, you're off base on that. Way off base.

Just curious. What is your airline affiliation currently? I was thinking SWA for a while but you don't seem to talk like any of the SWA people I know.

 

[fatburger]

Hi Surplus1-

Are you saying that you have zero desire to work at a major airline? To expand a little bit-- you don't have any desire to fly left seat in a 757/767 or 777 or 747 or A330/340 someday? The benefits, schedule and vacation that come with flying for a major are quite attractive.

Either your spouse has a very good job or you are independently wealthy!! You can tell me all day long that you don't but I'd being willing to bet a lot of cookies that deep down inside you do.

Hell, maybe you don't but there aren't to many of you out there. I'd say less than 10 pilots at each regional/express carrier can honestly say they don't have a desire to fly for a major.

I'm curious if you have ever interviewed or tried to get an interview with a major? And also, how large is the membership for the rjdc? Thanks for your time.

fatburger

 

[surplus1]

All Good Logical Questions

Hi Surplus1-

Are you saying that you have zero desire to work at a major airline? To expand a little bit-- you don't have any desire to fly left seat in a 757/767 or 777 or 747 or A330/340 someday? The benefits, schedule and vacation that come with flying for a major are quite attractive.

No, that's not what I'm saying, that's just what you're reading into it. Not everyone that works for a regional airline came there from flying school. This is not my first airline job. Many years ago(too many to mention) I was the captain of a 4-engine jet flying in international service. Therefore, it is not something that I aspire to do, it is something that I have already done. Yes, the pay is very attractive. It wasn't up to today's standards at DAL, but it was pretty good even for then. Sorry, I'm just not a new kid on the block.

Either your spouse has a very good job or you are independently wealthy!! You can tell me all day long that you don't but I'd being willing to bet a lot of cookies that deep down inside you do.

LOL, I wish I was independently wealthy (I'd donate some to the RJDC). My wife fired me a long time ago (said I was gone too much = happiness). I didn't get a new one 'cause they're high maintenance and what they have is usually free anyway. My kids are grown and I have grandkids that aren't babies. See above for the other.

Hell, maybe you don't but there aren't to many of you out there. I'd say less than 10 pilots at each regional/express carrier can honestly say they don't have a desire to fly for a major.

I don't know if most airline pilots want to fly "for a major", but I would agree that most pilots want to fly big airplanes. In my day, it was because they were big and cool. Today I think it all revolves around $$, with little genuine enthusiasm about simply flying for the sake of flying.

I'm curious if you have ever interviewed or tried to get an interview with a major? And also, how large is the membership for the rjdc? Thanks for your time.

Yes, I've interviewed more than once, been rejected more than once and been hired more than once. There are some places where I never bothered to apply (more than where I did).

I honestly don't know how many people contribute to the RJDC (there are no "members", just supporters). All I can say is that the litigants are NOT wealthy, the litigation is VERY expensive and it is ALL funded by donations from pilots. The amount expended to date is well over six figures (I'm told) and they have yet to spend one day in a courtroom. They haven't even been through the "discovery" phase yet.

If you have a few bucks you can spare to help defend the rights of pilots to be represented fairly by their union, I'm sure your donation would be welcome. Check it out on the website.

No problem with the time part. As much as I write on here, you can see I have lots of time to spare. As someone said, "An idle mind is the devils workshop."

 

[skydiverdriver]

Boeingman,
I agree that mr Surplus is very well educated, and well spoken on the matters of the rjdc. However, so is Flydeltasjets. So, why do you say something disparaging about Surplus, but not FDJ? I think they are both intellegent and well informed people, who use valid arguements to make their point. You, however, use name calling and innuendo, that make no points.

Fatburger,
Why do you think that since Surplus supports the rjdc and it's goals, that he couldn't possibly want to be a mainline pilot? I don't think he does, but I do, and I support the rjdc. Why? Because of two main reasons. One, is that sometimes you have to do the right thing, even if it doesn't benefit you personally. Second, is that I think the goals of the rjdc, if reached, will help ALL pilots, major or "regional."

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: Point for Surplus 1

Thanks for your thoughts but I don't agree that the RJDC should change its name. If there were no RJs, ALPA would not be doing what it is. The agenda of the ALPA is intent on stopping the RJ. So intent that ALPA is willing to violate its own rules and its DFR to the regional pilots in order to pursue that agenda. The name is not misplaced.

The purpose of the litigation is to force the union to carry out its duty of fair representation to ALL its members. Not just to mainline pilots. In my opinion that duty has been violated already and continues to be violated over and over again. It has to stop.

Mainline pilots would do well to stop trying to "spin" the reasons for the litigation into a campaign that serves their interest at the expense of the rest of us.

Surplus, First let me say that I can be convinced. I am opinionated, but my ego is not such that I am unable to change my mind and accept that I was mistaken. I'll continue to debate this name issue until ya'll change my mind or you give up; or I change your mind.
You wrote, "Thanks for your thoughts but I don't agree that the RJDC should change its name. If there were no RJs, ALPA would not be doing what it is." I would submit to you that your statement is only an opinion. How do you know that ALPA would not be doing what it is if there were no RJ's?
You wrote, "The agenda of the ALPA is intent on stopping the RJ." Unless I have missed something, and it is quite possible that I did, ALPA has not stated what you are attributing to them. I would argue that ALPA is intent on stopping the loss of mainline jobs to other carriers. It is only coincidental that the other carriers are flying RJ's . (remember that I'm only debating the need for the RJDC to change its name, not the merits of either case)
You wrote, "The purpose of the litigation is to force the union to carry out its duty of fair representation to ALL its members. Not just to mainline pilots." To that I ask, since the fight is over RJ's, (as you said, "If there were no RJs, ALPA would not be doing what it is") why is the litigation aimed at forcing the union to represent all of its members, should the litigation not be aimed at forcing the union to represent all of its airplanes?
You claim that the title is appropriate, yet most of your post addressed the need for pilots to be properly represented. I agree that pilots need to be represtented, and the more I learn about your case, I'm beginning to agree that you all have not been properly represented.

regards,
8N

 

[RJFlyer]

Well, I had stepped back from these discussions as there was nothing new being said, and nothing new to say. Now there is a legitimate issue being raised, with the obvious conflict of interest being perpetrated by ALPA in this latest US Air agreement, and (almost) everyone ignores it and returns to the same old "you don't get it," "no, YOU don't get it" arguments and name-calling.

How about getting back to the issue - namely, ALPA has negotiated a deal which will break (subvert? pervert?) contracts negotiated by ALPA on behalf of the US Air regionals, in order to benefit ALPA US Air mainline pilots. Forget for a moment that the RJDC even exists. How can you major pilots really look at this issue and not see that this is not legal , and simply not right? Many of you may or may not be right in guessing that the true number of RJDC supporters is quite small. But this new and disturbing problem just may swell the ranks.

There are some very disturbing things going on up in Fortress ALPA, when they think they can perpetrate this kind of insult on other ALPA 'brothers' with impunity. I am VERY concerned.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,
I agree that mr Surplus is very well educated, and well spoken on the matters of the rjdc. However, so is Flydeltasjets. So, why do you say something disparaging about Surplus, but not FDJ? I think they are both intellegent and well informed people, who use valid arguements to make their point. You, however, use name calling and innuendo, that make no points.

Name calling? Innuendo? I view it more as a wild guess towards him being one of the Plaintiffs. I guess his innuendo about my "ilk"making money at larger carriers doesn't count? Not that I am bothered about his obvious jealousy.

FDJ? Am I supposed to comment on each and every poster within the thread? FDJ and I have gone round on other subjects before.
Both of us have thick enough skin to realize it is for discussion only.

 

[Boeingman]

Well, I had stepped back from these discussions as there was nothing new being said, and nothing new to say. Now there is a legitimate issue being raised, with the obvious conflict of interest being perpetrated by ALPA in this latest US Air agreement, and (almost) everyone ignores it and returns to the same old "you don't get it," "no, YOU don't get it" arguments and name-calling.

How about getting back to the issue - namely, ALPA has negotiated a deal which will break (subvert? pervert?) contracts negotiated by ALPA on behalf of the US Air regionals, in order to benefit ALPA US Air mainline pilots. Forget for a moment that the RJDC even exists. How can you major pilots really look at this issue and not see that this is not legal , and simply not right? Many of you may or may not be right in guessing that the true number of RJDC supporters is quite small. But this new and disturbing problem just may swell the ranks.

There are some very disturbing things going on up in Fortress ALPA, when they think they can perpetrate this kind of insult on other ALPA 'brothers' with impunity. I am VERY concerned.

One question. Is USAir buying the RJ's?

 

[Boeingman]

Your guess is wrong but that's in keeping with much of what you've said.

Surplus is NOT one of the plaintiffs. I am involved for two reasons:

With your intensity I find that very difficult to believe. But I really don't care if you are or are not. I just pulled an all nighter at my club so my answers will be short and brief. (Yes, I am one of the ilk that I am concerned about bringing in as much money as I can.)

1) I'm a unionist at heart. I believe in unions and their purpose. I hate to see what has been a good union perverted and destroyed by misguided leaders who serve their own political interests and power, instead of the interests of the membership. I oppose any form of corruption in a labor union.

Those are fairly strong accusations and statements. One might construe them as libel and slander.

2) I'm a Comair pilot and my fellow pilots are being injured by the union's activities. I will do what I can to stand with them and attempt to right the wrongs.

My comment before is still on the table. All this money and energy then should be spent on forming a new Regional pilot union if you feel so wronged. If you think you have so many followers than this should not be a difficult task. Obviously you have the money to burn for a lawsuit.

Speaking of which, should you lose, and I think you will, my hope is ALPA countersues for legal fees.

I have nothing to gain personally from the outcome and nothing to lose. I'm just doing what I believe is right and I'm not concerned about whose mainline pin-feathers get ruffled. I enjoy defending the weak from the predatory behavior of the strong.

"I'm just doing". sans "I'm just participating in" Interesting choice of words you use here. Again, you do not sound like a supporter but a Plaintiff.

What do you think you are some Robin Hood of the regional pilots?

Question to you: Is standing up for what is right something that is lost on mainline pilots? Is $$ the only thing that motivates you? IF so, that's a sorry state of affairs. The founders of our union were not of that ilk.

Money, quality of life, days off. Yes, I'm part of that ilk. That is why I strived to get on with a major in the first place. You may think this RJDC is right, others feel the RJDC is despicable.

I've already fought a battle for what I believed was right BTW.

Just so you'll both know, a mainline job isn't something I want, need or envy. BTDT and got the T-shirt. It never swelled my head, thank God.

Well we don't get T- shirts, and the only thing swelled around here is my wallet. Going to bed now.

 

[RJFlyer]

One question. Is USAir buying the RJ's?

I don't know - do you?

I guess, technically, no USAir is not buying them. They will not be used at "USAir." My understanding is that they will go to Potomac Air (can you say alter-ego?), where they will all be flown by USAir furloughees, and scraps to the w-o's, where half will have to be flown by USAir furloughees.

Other questions: at what point do these furloughees get recalled to mainline? Will they? Then who flies the RJs at Potomac? I haven't seen this part of the plan. I've also heard that USAir, because of their accounting regarding the w-o's, can't spin them off in an IPO, but Potomac Air could be. Interesting way to get rid of a bunch of highly-paid, troublesome mainline pilots.

I can see the argument that USAir could be invoking 'force majeure' to be able to violate the contracts of the w-o's, but that doesn't mitigate the responsibility of ALPA to try to defend those contracts, not be a party in destroying them.

 

[surplus1]

With your intensity I find that very difficult to believe. But I really don't care if you are or are not.

Should I say I'm surprised? People believe what they want to believe. You're entitled to your opinion notwithstanding my efforts to confuse you with the facts. Yes, I am "intense" about this. A great wrong is being done to a lot of people without any legitimate justification. I want it stopped and I'm quite willing to volunteer my time and energy to that end.

Those are fairly strong accusations and statements. One might construe them as libel and slander.

You feel accused? Sorry, but if the shoe fits, wear it. I meant what I said, but I hope the shoe doesn't fit.

My comment before is still on the table. All this money and energy then should be spent on forming a new Regional pilot union if you feel so wronged. If you think you have so many followers than this should not be a difficult task. Obviously you have the money to burn for a lawsuit.

You should know that most Americans aren't quitters. When there is wrong and there is, we right it or at least we try. Running from the problem solves nothing.

My daddy taught me that I should face my problems head on. He also told me that my most valuable posession would always be my integrity and that I must never sell it at any price. To date I have followed his advice and I hope I can go West with those beliefs intact.

Anyway, since the allegations of the suit have already been committed, our departure might make you feel better but would not relieve you of the liability. The damage has been done. The time to consider departure is after the victory and you're correct, it would not be difficult.

Speaking of which, should you lose, and I think you will, my hope is ALPA countersues for legal fees.

If ALPA so desires, that's within it's rights. For such eventualities you buy insurance. You know, like the policy ALPA has in place to protect it from litigation. Of course, if you have no assets a victory would be moot.

"I'm just doing". sans "I'm just participating in" Interesting choice of words you use here. Again, you do not sound like a supporter but a Plaintiff.

I've already told you what I am. You may choose to belive or not believe as you prefer. Candidly, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

What do you think you are some Robin Hood of the regional pilots?

Well, I honestly hadn't given that any thought, but if you see yourself as the Sheriff of Nottingham or a member of his clan, I'd sooner be classed with Robin.

You may think this RJDC is right, others feel the RJDC is despicable.

Yes Sheriff, I do think it's right. Perhaps you could tell me what about it you think is despicable. There is no need to hold back, if I couldn't stand the heat I wouldn't be in the kitchen.

That's a gauntlet for you. Pick it up and tell me what's despicable about it.

I've already fought a battle for what I believed was right BTW.

Then I'm proud of you. Every man should be willing to fight for what he believes is right. That is precisely what I am doing right now.

The fact that you do not share my view makes me listen willingly to your perspective, if you have one. If you can show me where I am wrong, I will accept it and change. But remember, you have to show me. It isn't enough that you simply disagree. Disagreement will not alter my resolve. A well presented argument might. I don't have a closed mind. Can you say the same?

Well we don't get T- shirts, and the only thing swelled around here is my wallet. Going to bed now.

Hope you had a good night and slept well and no, I'm not being facetious. No T-shirt? Too bad. I got a T-shirt and a hat too with writing on it. It says "Whatever It Takes".

Now I'm going to bed. All the best to you and Fly Safe.

PS. In the good old days my wallet was swelled too. It's not any more but that's no big deal. I've figured out what's really important in life and what's peripheral.

 

[publisher]

clear

I think that it should be clear by now that everyone rides their own horse.

Someone on here said that morale was low as management wanted to do X. Well let me assure you that if there is a morale problem today it is with shareholders, insurance companies, and aircraft lease holders. It is clear to these people that management has lost their ability to manage to labor interests.

It is no less clear that ALPA serves but one master, themselves. In the end, they only do what protects their own interest just like they accuse management of doing. Like the PGA Tour, the members have long since lost control to the government of the organization.

Wholly owned and independent regionals operate to a different scheme of things. The benevolent dictatorship of the mainline carriers are no longer so understanding and the artificial constraints imposed on all are beginning to bend to the point of being broken.

The rjdc could win their case, it is certainly no secret that ALPA does not serve them. Then what. In the end, will the mainlines and ALPA not be in position to impose their will upon them.

All of this is about money. The power follows the money. The power of ALPA may be to the point that it destroys the golden goose by making the carriers contracts so costly that upstarts and small regionals take the marketshare.

My grandfather once said that successful people have one common trait. They have the resources to be powerful combined with the judgement not to use them. Not much success in this group of supposed leaders.

 

[enigma]

BRAVO

All of this is about money. The power follows the money. The power of ALPA may be to the point that it destroys the golden goose by making the carriers contracts so costly that upstarts and small regionals take the marketshare.

This is exactly why I have repeatedly said the the market WILL prevail, and that supply and demand ARE in control. If the pilots at the top want to maintain their high wages they have to figure out a way to educate/propagandize the newbees so that said newbees will not work for less. As long as there are those willing to work for less, in this unregulated market, they will drive the price to what they are willing to accept. It's too bad that most of those willing to give themselves away are only doing so, so that they can position themselves for the big money later; because their current wages are directly undermining the wages that they aspire to. Oh well. I don't really think that anything will change until we get some real leadership, and as you have correctly pointed out; ALPA (I assume that you mean national leadership) shows no inclination to take a position that helps anyone but their current leadership. See we really do agree.
regards
8N

 

[Boeingman]

Surplus:

I don't debate with you about my position because as I have followed the thread(s) I agree with the positions by Drag, FDJ and a few others against it. I really don't have the time to rehash their same arguments.

When I was talking about libel, I meant it as your very pointed statement about the ALPA leadership.

Insurance for lawsuits? Don't know, but I am sure this is costing the membership plenty, and not just in dollars.

I notice you did not comment about the forming of a regional union. In my opinion, with your arguments and reasons to date for the RJDC, it would seem to me this would be the most honorable and productive thing to do.

The only people that make out in lawsuits are the attorneys.

 

[Slim]

Boeingman,

I'll respond to the suggestion of forming another union. I posted these similar remarks on another thread.

Leaving ALPA to form another union isn't feasible at this time. The reasons follow:

1. Many of us don't want to form another union because we choose not to leave in the middle of a fight. I spent over 20 years in the military and that attitude doesn't sit well.

2. Leaving ALPA to form another union requires money. Based upon some very rough numbers, I estimate the start up cost to be between three and four million dollars for the first 12-18 months of operations. The seniority list at Comair numbers around 1,500. I believe the number of pilots at ASA is 1,100-1,200. Of the combined numbers, 170-200 pilots are apprentice, non-dues paying members. Therefore, the critical mass to support the start up of a new union doesn't exist. I estimate the critical mass number to be around 3,000.

3. The RJDC consists of pilots from Comair, ASA and other carriers. I believe there are some SkyWest pilots in the membership. Unlike the AA pilots who left ALPA in the 1960s, it's far more difficult to get multiple pilot groups to do what you recommend.

Like Surplus1, I'm at my second carrier and have been employed by a major (not as a pilot). I have no desire to return. That has to do with a number of factors, few of which relate directly to money.

Fly safe!

 

[publisher]

enigma

Enigma.

The part to the equation that has been left out is the paying customer. They have shown a major reluctance to pay what needs to be paid to support the infrastructure of the large carriers.

What is more likely needed is redistribution of the pot which almost never happens. That is the problem.

If you suddenly got everyone on the bottom of the pay scale up to a parity with the large carriers, I believe that the result would be less opportunity, not more, and less flying, not more.

What happens when there is an inbalance of power is that the wage on top gets out of proportion to the task.

Let me give you an example from a different area. I have a phone receptionist and that position is part of my union contract. Each year that psotion gets its mandatory wage and seniority bumps. The next thing you know we are paying a telephone receptionist $30k per year when the fact is that the task is a $14000 a year job and we could get people all day to fill the job.

Customers are willing to fly so much for so much. There are very few costs that the airline can finitely control. Good managment can hedge fuel costs, make good deals on aircraft, have good terminal leases, etc. Crew costs can be X part of that and it is done by averaging across the board by type. If that costs go up, so has to the willingness of the public to pay the fare.

The guys on top you refer to know that factor and know that they benefit from the new people not having the votes. In life, the last guy on the train rarely cares if the guy behind him makes it.