RJDC Update 10-28-06

[PCL_128]

ALPA's own behavior is what turns new members against ALPA.

No, these members turn against the Association because they hear lies, rumors, and innuendo in the crewrooms from guys like Ford and JB. If they bothered to get informed, then they would learn that 99% of what these guys say is absolute rubbish. Of course, asking the typical ALPA member to get informed seems to be anathema around here.

How long are we supposed to wait for ALPA's leadership to fix the union's representational problems from the inside? Really, how much longer, can you give me a date?

No, I'm not going to give you a date. I'm going to continue working and so are many others. We'll work until we've fixed the problems. That's how productive members of an Association get things done. Whining and crying and running to the courts is not productive, and you will accomplish nothing in the end. Your lawsuit is going to fail, and you'll have lost many years and probably many thousands of dollars in donations in the process. What a waste. Perhaps you should get involved in the Association and actually work towards a solution instead.

ALPA must be fixed. Just like the battles other minorities had to fight for equal representation, it appears this battle will have to be won at the Courthouse to effect change.

Other minorities? Oh please! Comparing your silly lawsuit to the plight of minorities seeking representation is insulting to those that really did have to fight for their rights. This is where I start to lose respect for you.

You and I disagree on the point, but I see Dan Ford as one the bravest and most hard working ALPA supporters I've ever met.

You can't support something that you are trying to destroy.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA merger policy didn't apply in this case. It's as simple as that. Besides, even if the policy did apply, and the PID went forward, you can't force management to merge a seniority list. It was a hopeless endeavor intended to do nothing but stir up trouble and prove a point.

On this, we agree. Of course, you still have to find a way to accomplish a single seniority list for each brand. Espousing it as a good idea isn't enough. You need to come up with ways to achieve that goal.

I was one of the guys who worked with and around the project, so I think I know what our intentions were. Our main intention was to avoid the DCI whipsaw that was accurately predicted back in 1998 and 1999.

One list can be achieved across different companies. Teamsters seems to have figured this out, why can't ALPA? One list has been done at Eagle, all the Republic Airlines carriers and even Mesa.

Which is worse - onelist, or no scope and whipsaw? You just have to pick your priorities.

The difference is that at ALPA - the mainline pilots enjoy benefits tied to connection whipsaw. ALPA's economic and financial analysis department gives mainline pilots data for "bargaining credits" which effectively gives them money for trading away the employment rights of other ALPA members. ALPA's mainline MEC's negotiate low phantom pay rates to depress rates at carriers like yours, Mesaba, ASA & Comair who are struggling to hold the line on 70 to 90 seat pay - just so they can help management whipsaw the Connection pilots with the belief that the parent company will make more profit for them to exploit.

If you don't believe me, explain why your major and my major both negotiated concessionary pay rates on phantom airplanes that are not on any order books? What other purpose does a phantom pay rate serve than to drive down expectations at other carriers?

Think about how most airlines arbitration clause for new feet types works. You know this stuff. I keep waiting for the light to go off and you to join us in our quest to fix ALPA and fix this profession.

 

[~~~^~~~]

No, these members turn against the Association because they hear lies, rumors, and innuendo in the crewrooms from guys like Ford and JB. If they bothered to get informed, then they would learn that 99% of what these guys say is absolute rubbish.

The RJDC does not pilot to pilot. Instead they publish their ideas on paper and provide facts on their web site. www.rjdefense.com That requires accountability.

The most inflammatory facts have come verbatim from ALPA's own directors, not the RJDC. Really, ALPA's conduct and justifications are worse than those who lead the RJDC thought possible.

Who would have thought that a Delta MEC Chair and ALPA's President would testify that they adapted ALPA's scope policy to conform to management's plans? Why aren't the Delta pilots furious with their leadership who they vigorously supported during contract negotiations testifying that Leo Mullins and crew engineered the most important part of their contract?

I'm not a RJDC litigant and thus not privleged to know - but it sure seems based on my reading that the Delta MEC entered into a conspiracy with management to screw other ALPA members. But itself that is not illegal, but with ALPA's E&FA and Woerth's signature it is ALPA that entered into the conspiracy and that is a real no no when ALPA has a fiduciary duty to its members at ASA and Comair.

 

[N2264J]

ALPA merger policy didn't apply in this case.

Why not? At the time, we (Delta, Comair, ASA) shared a common board of directors, same image, same reservation system, common stock - same shareholders, same livery, overlapping management functions (marketing), same ticket stock, our schedules dovetailed at the hub to feed each other, etc.

It's as simple as that. Besides, even if the policy did apply, and the PID went forward, you can't force management to merge a seniority list.

What are you talking about? We have the right to bargain collectively under federal law. Don't you understand what collective bargaining means? If we had a real union behind us, there is no way Delta could have argued in court that we were not a single transportation system.

Merger and Fragmentation policy was created to keep the Frank Lorenzo's from moving assets from one airline to another within a corporate structure. The policy was ignored in 2000 and now we're all bidding on the flying we do. If the union is so helpless against managememt, why have merger and alter ego policy at all? In fact, if we are subject to management's every whim, why have a union at all?

For a status rep, that's a pretty bizzare attitude to take.

 

[~~~^~~~]

N2264J: Excellent post and the things you did not know about the PID is at that time the Delta MEC actually had a Side Letter which gave Delta pilots dual seniority at Delta, ASA and Comair. It is known as the "Bid Restricted Second Officer SLOA" and would have had Connection train and provide flying for Delta's Second Officers until those pilots could return to their Delta jobs. This was considered a "secret" agreement and at the BOD the Delta MEC Chairman flat out lied about this agreement and other relevant facts associated with the PID debate. Due to the perjury, we do not know the real outcome of the debate.

At the same time the same leadership told their pilots that Connection guys were asking for Date of Hire on the Delta list. It was another complete lie, but rallied the troops to support the Delta MEC and even is repeated to this day.

It has been siggested that if ASA and Comair had gone to the Delta MEC FIRST and negotiated a merger then it might have worked. However, at the time Delta was the FedEx of its day and squadron mates were given hiring priority. The Delta MEC Chair said that his first allegiance was to his military pilot buddies, not ALPA. His reason for fighting the PID request was that his buddies would not want to come to Delta and fly RJ's.

And thus a great opportunity for our profession was lost and the race to the bottom began.

 

[Firehoser]

The economics of scope

When you look at the economics of the issue, scope in terms of limiting numbers of regional jets vs. seat ranges it is absolutely ridiculous. CRJ 50s have a CASM that is nearly twice most mainline jets. CRJ 70s come closer but are not that close.

Any airline CEO in his right mind would therefore NOT put an mainline jet into a market that could support it for the sole reason that he will earn nearly twice the profit with a mainline jet that he would on a CRJ. So why does mainline use regional jets?

If in a given market you are only putting 50 people on a 150 jet, you are operating at a loss. If you put those people on a 50 seat jet you are operating at a profit.

If in a given market you don't have a "dense" schedule and you discover that you are losing small numbers of residual business to other airlines during the gaps in your schedule, you can put an RJ into that time slot and retain that business.

If a particular small market does not want capacity but frequency (therefore you can't run a mainline jet profitably), you can put several RJs into that market to capture the demand.

If you can't compete with competition in a given market in terms of stealing market share but don't want to lose what market share you have, you can put RJs into that market to maintain "brand presence".

If your destination is primarily a vacation market with most of your seats sold at cost or below, you can remove mainline jets, replace some of them with RJS thus reducing capacity giving you pricing leverage on vacation seats while retaining your profitable business tickets.

Finally, if you don't want to risk the big bucks with a mainline jet to open up a new market, you can get your regional partner to risk the money and build capacity as demand dictates.

In every case, when demand can support a mainline jet, no manager in his right mind will refuse to replace the CRJs with a mainline jet.

When you look at the economics involved there is no justification for limiting numbers of a given size jet. Scope is nothing more as one poster said, a ploy to increase mainline pilot career opportunites at the expense of regional jet pilots. On the Skywest = Scabs forum, I posted a link to an article in Aviation International News that quoted Duane Woerth as saying that the sole reason that ALPA National was pushing regional units to raise compensation to the level of mainline pilots was to stop the transfer of flying from mainline to regional affiliates. Here is the link:

http://www.ainonline.com/issues/08_01/08_01_comairstrikepg60.html

In other words, when ALPA National gets regional units to force their companies to grant compensation to make their flying just as expensive in terms of flight crew costs as the majors, the majors will then take back regional flying and the scope issue will be resolved.

What about the jobs of career regional pilots who have faithfully paid into ALPA to enhance and protect their jobs over the years?

To that, ALPA National has said in essence screw you - we know what's best for your career - a position with our mainline carriers on our terms.

ALPA has a legal fiduciary duty to represent ALL of its members equally without discrimination. This was the crux of the Pan Am Pilot's lawsuit against ALPA which the pilots WON. Similarly, the RJDC lawsuit argues that in applying scope in discriminatory ways and in as we see in the latest update, the discriminatory manner in which ALPA deals with its regional units, ALPA has failed in its fiduciary responsibility to represent the interests of the regional pilots with the same fervor that it does its mainline pilot members.

Contrary to other posts, the evidence that ALPA has failed in this responsbility and is no friend of the regional pilots is substantial.

The poetic irony in all of this is that mainline advocates of harsh scope language regarding numbers of regional aircraft are hamstringing their company's ability to respond to market demands thus ultimately hurting their own career security. If Delta, with its restrictive scope, cannot repond to these issues in the market, but another mainline carrier with more liberal scope can, Delta will lose market share. THAT in turn hurts mainline pilot career potential.

 

[crashpad]

Espousing it as a good idea isn't enough. You need to come up with ways to achieve that goal.

Have you tried clicking your heals together and wishing really hard?

 

[Huck]

It has been siggested that if ASA and Comair had gone to the Delta MEC FIRST and negotiated a merger then it might have worked. However, at the time Delta was the FedEx of its day and squadron mates were given hiring priority. The Delta MEC Chair said that his first allegiance was to his military pilot buddies, not ALPA. His reason for fighting the PID request was that his buddies would not want to come to Delta and fly RJ's.

As long as we're dredging up bitter memories - don't forget, there was a sizable group in ASA ALPA leadership (starting with MEC chair FDR) that absolutely refused to approach the DAL pilots to come up with a common strategy. I was at the meetings. Lots of big fish in that small pond didn't want to change things. I told them I would gladly be #10,001 at DAL but they didn't agree with me.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

RJDC= Really Just Desire Cash

 

[737 Pylt]

Why not? At the time, we (Delta, Comair, ASA) shared a common board of directors, same image, same reservation system, common stock - same shareholders, same livery, overlapping management functions (marketing), same ticket stock, our schedules dovetailed at the hub to feed each other, etc.

Um, sorry, but you were not. You were a wholly owned subsidiary. But if all that jibberish makes you happy, then have at it!

What are you talking about? We have the right to bargain collectively under federal law. Don't you understand what collective bargaining means? If we had a real union behind us, there is no way Delta could have argued in court that we were not a single transportation system.

See the above! You are an employee of DCI, either cmr or ASA! You are not a DL employee, much as you like to pretend to be!

I almost left this whole thread alone as I can see Dan's desparation is hysterical. he jumps on here to throw the 3 supporters a bone to let them know their hard earned money is being well spent. That flushing sound you hear is his desparate attempt to keep this trivial thing alive and kicking. So far he's done a pretty bad job. But I expect nothing less from the likes of him!

737

 

[John Pennekamp]

Why not? At the time, we (Delta, Comair, ASA) shared a common board of directors, same image, same reservation system, common stock - same shareholders, same livery, overlapping management functions (marketing), same ticket stock, our schedules dovetailed at the hub to feed each other, etc.

Um, sorry, but you were not. You were a wholly owned subsidiary. But if all that jibberish makes you happy, then have at it!

See the above! You are an employee of DCI, either cmr or ASA! You are not a DL employee, much as you like to pretend to be!

I almost left this whole thread alone as I can see Dan's desparation is hysterical. he jumps on here to throw the 3 supporters a bone to let them know their hard earned money is being well spent. That flushing sound you hear is his desparate attempt to keep this trivial thing alive and kicking. So far he's done a pretty bad job. But I expect nothing less from the likes of him!

737

737, he forgot to mention the beverage napkins, LOL. Remember that argument? We have operational integration with Delta because our beverage napkins said Delta. So then DCI introduced Delta Connection beverage napkins. The RJDC cultists really are hysterical.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

737, he forgot to mention the beverage napkins, LOL. Remember that argument? We have operational integration with Delta because our beverage napkins said Delta. So then DCI introduced Delta Connection beverage napkins. The RJDC cultists really are hysterical.

That's right, the beverage napkins said Delta, so that seals the deal. You just gotta laugh. The scary part is that some of those guys are allowed to carry firearms in the cockpit now. Yikes!!!!!!!!!

 

[N2264J]

737, he forgot to mention the beverage napkins, LOL. Remember that argument? We have operational integration with Delta because our beverage napkins said Delta. So then DCI introduced Delta Connection beverage napkins. The RJDC cultists really are hysterical.

Nobody, not one person in authority, ever brought up something as lame as beverage napkins.

But hey, I've got an idea bright guy. Why don't you tell us where this came from? I'll time you with a calendar.

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one and the same.

 

[wanagethi]

You guys can argue all you want, but until alpa decides to become a real union and get all brands of flying under each list the race to the bottom will continue in every airplane, a real union would have done this years ago and the bidding would not exist.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You guys can argue all you want, but until alpa decides to become a real union and get all brands of flying under each list the race to the bottom will continue in every airplane, a real union would have done this years ago and the bidding would not exist.

Now THAT is a true statement.

 

[PCL_128]

Why not? At the time, we (Delta, Comair, ASA) shared a common board of directors, same image, same reservation system, common stock - same shareholders, same livery, overlapping management functions (marketing), same ticket stock, our schedules dovetailed at the hub to feed each other, etc.

You were a wholly owned subsidiary. Nothing more, nothing less. That doesn't justify the use of ALPA merger policy. The Executive Council looked at this, and they made the decision according to the C & BL and the Admin Manual.

What are you talking about? We have the right to bargain collectively under federal law. Don't you understand what collective bargaining means? If we had a real union behind us, there is no way Delta could have argued in court that we were not a single transportation system.

There's nothing to argue in court. You are already represented by the same union, so filing for single-carrier status isn't necessary. The issue is what can be done to force management to accept a single seniority list. This has to be negotiated just like anything else. It can't be done in court, as much as I know you love the courts.

 

[bvt1151]

You guys can argue all you want, but until alpa decides to become a real union and get all brands of flying under each list the race to the bottom will continue in every airplane, a real union would have done this years ago and the bidding would not exist.

Now THAT is why the RJDC exists. Not a single dollar will ever come the RJDC's way, and Dan Ford has repeatedly said this. The goal is to force ALPA to start doing what it promised to do when we signed our bylaws.

Its funny how people will complain about ALPA's inability to function, and then complain about those who are actually doing something to fix it. If you just like to complain, there's plenty to complain about in politics. Move aside in the ALPA argument for people who are willing to do more than just complain.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Now THAT is why the RJDC exists. Not a single dollar will ever come the RJDC's way, and Dan Ford has repeatedly said this. The goal is to force ALPA to start doing what it promised to do when we signed our bylaws.

Its funny how people will complain about ALPA's inability to function, and then complain about those who are actually doing something to fix it. If you just like to complain, there's plenty to complain about in politics. Move aside in the ALPA argument for people who are willing to do more than just complain.

I don't know. Our reps seemed to do something about it when they voted Woerth out. And I'm pretty sure that they aren't named plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

So I guess the system really does work...

 

[kiteflyer]

A real AIRLINE PILOT belongs to and supports the RJDC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some pilots just don't get it. I find it Ironic that "scooter trash" regional pilots are doing more to save this profession tha any mailine group. ALPA is broken. Something has to be done, and as far as I can tell, this is the only active attempt at some progressive forward thinking by ANY pilot group.

General Lee, If ALPA doesn't start uniting pilot groups and brining senority lists together we are going to have a big problem. If you think the regional industry is bad now, just wait unitil management figures out how to have a seperate group fly each fleet type. Don't think it will happen? Bet you never thought it would get this bad either............On second thought, you don't even realize how bad the situation is.

 

[bvt1151]

I don't know. Our reps seemed to do something about it when they voted Woerth out. And I'm pretty sure that they aren't named plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

So I guess the system really does work...

How many years later? The thing is that ALPA took some serious damage for the reps to finally realize this. The RJDC have been predicting it for years and are calling for much more change than just the president. How long, and how much more damage are we going to take before the reps take the next step the RJDC is calling for? At this rate, it'll be another 5 years.

 

[John Pennekamp]

How many years later? The thing is that ALPA took some serious damage for the reps to finally realize this. The RJDC have been predicting it for years and are calling for much more change than just the president. How long, and how much more damage are we going to take before the reps take the next step the RJDC is calling for? At this rate, it'll be another 5 years.

Well, judging by their track record in changing ALPA, I'd say their crusade hasn't done much either. In fact, all the RJDC seems to be good at is saying "I told you so".

 

[PCL_128]

I keep waiting for the light to go off and you to join us in our quest to fix ALPA and fix this profession.

Actually, it works the other way around, Fins. I'll refer you to JC Lawson's testimony in his deposition:

Answer: "Whereas both management's plans

and the Delta MEC's scope argument, provide

overwhelming evidence that ASA and Comair​

flying is highly integrated with Delta

operations and as such poses a serious threat

to the interests and collective bargaining
power of ASA Comair and Delta pilots."​

Question: Was that statement, in that second
whereas that you just read, true in your
understanding at the time?​

Answer: I would say yes.​

Question: Do you think it's still true?​

Answer: No.​

Question: Something has changed?​

Answer: Something has changed.​

Question: What has changed?​

Answer: Umm, in my position within the
association, I've been able to look very
deeply in what drives it and what makes it
happen and why things happen the way they do
and certainly seeing both sides of issues that
pilots have to deal with, there is a process
and becoming closer to that process I would
have to say I know an awful lot more today
than I knew then.​

Question: So in your view you were wrong?​

Answer: Umm, that would probably be
overstating it.​

Question: How would you state it?​

Answer: I would state it that over -- over
a lot of time working with the association
that certainly my understanding is more and
better today than it was when this was​

written.​

​

​

You see, Fins, if you would get involved within the Association you would most likely find yourself rethinking all of this. You are looking in from the outside, and you are depending upon second-hand information from biased sources like JB and DF. JB has the opportunity to effect change from his position, but he acts too much like a spoiled child to even participate. Instead, he takes up space on the LEC Officer roster and does nothing. Don't you think it makes more sense to listen to a man like JC Lawson who has been there rather than a spoiled brat like JB who won't even bother to attend a Local Council meeting? Think about it.​

 

[~~~^~~~]

John: It takes a while to get to trial. Depositions and discovery are just about wrapped, so it is possible this will see trial in 2007.

A few years were wasted exhausting every possible means of resolution within ALPA. For a Federal case with a defendant who has done everything possible to slow its progress - it has gone forward in a timely fashion.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You see, Fins, if you would get involved within the Association you would most likely find yourself rethinking all of this. ... Don't you think it makes more sense to listen to a man like JC Lawson who has been there rather than a spoiled brat like JB who won't even bother to attend a Local Council meeting? Think about it.​

[/left]

JC does not explain the process that made him reconsider his position. It likely is that the process consists of becoming an ALPA EVP, getting paychecks from ALPA and knowing where is bread gets buttered. There is no tolerance for an EVP who makes highly divergent statements from the current ALPA political speech.

To use a quote I love from one of my status reps when he was discussing a resolution critical of the Delta MEC's bargaining to cap our pay rates by negotiating rates on phantom airplanes - "we can't just run up to the Delta pilots and kick them in the nuts." As an "outsider" I can freely speak my mind, which is why I'm not running for office.

JC did a good job of saying nothing - other than once he was an EVP he changed his position to conform. He did not say he was wrong. If there is a "process" other than forced acquiesence to the mainline MEC, I would LOVE to hear about it. You can't mean the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee that has in 7 years not reported any of scope's impacts other than they need more meetings in fancy hotels to talk consider it more.....

It is just this sort of coerced conformance that keeps reform from happening. But PCL, I do hope we cross paths one of these days, it would be a pleasure to buy you a beverage of your choice and hear your insights.

 

[PCL_128]

JC does not explain the process that made him reconsider his position. It likely is that the process consists of becoming an ALPA EVP, getting paychecks from ALPA and knowing where is bread gets buttered. There is no tolerance for an EVP who makes highly divergent statements from the current ALPA political speech.

JC doesn't receive any "paychecks from ALPA" anymore than I do. The only man that receives a paycheck from the Association is the President. Everyone else receives flight pay loss which comes on their usual company paycheck. He will continue to receive his pay whether he agrees with the rest of the EC or not. He cannot be forced to believe or say anything. Again, you are listening to crazy rhetoric from DF and friends.

JC did a good job of saying nothing other than once he was an EVP he changed his position to conform.

That's not what he said, and you shouldn't try to put those words in his mouth. Read it again. He said plainly that he no longer believes what that PID resolution said to be true.

It is just this sort of coerced conformance that keeps reform from happening.

Please state where this "coercion" is coming from. Again, no one can force JC to say, think, or do anything. He would get paid either way, and he would remain on the EC either way. JC was accountable only to the status reps of his caucus (Group B-1) that elected him to that position.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't know. Our reps seemed to do something about it when they voted Woerth out. And I'm pretty sure that they aren't named plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

So I guess the system really does work...

Changing the president of ALPA isn't going to change the current bidding war within the brands. As long as management bids out flying, the system isn't really working......

 

[bvt1151]

Well, judging by their track record in changing ALPA, I'd say their crusade hasn't done much either. In fact, all the RJDC seems to be good at is saying "I told you so".

That's a lot of what the RJDC is. Its a deterrent to prevent more of what's happening, and has shown some success in that area. More specifically, they're a pressure on ALPA to act like they should. "I told you so" is pressure. Not to mention the only way you can say "I told you so" is if you really did "tell them so," which the RJDC has done repeatedly.

Of course ALPA will never admit the RJDC was correct. It is funny, though to hear ALPA use the same "its the market" argument that management does when they're put under pressure. Hypocricy at its finest.

 

[bvt1151]

That's not what he said, and you shouldn't try to put those words in his mouth. Read it again. He said plainly that he no longer believes what that PID resolution said to be true.

By JC's own admission, he was very hands-off with the RJDC and quietly supported them. I think you're far too deep into your argument to accept this fact, but the truth is the truth. Or as JC says, "It is what it is."

 

[StaySeated]

If the supporters/members of the rjdc would have started the job hunting process instead of this lawsuit they would most likely already have the job they are suing for today. How many people have moved on to another job over the three or four years the RJDC has been litigating. Comair alone has had hundreds MOVE UP THE LADDER to jetblue, southwest, continental, ect in the last two or three years. What makes you guys better than the rest of us that have prepared, interviewed, and achieved the next level on our own merit and abilities?

 

[PCL_128]

By JC's own admission, he was very hands-off with the RJDC and quietly supported them. I think you're far too deep into your argument to accept this fact, but the truth is the truth. Or as JC says, "It is what it is."

Oh, I'm fully aware of JC's "lurking" involvement. Some of my posts from a few years ago even mention this, if I remember correctly. I'm no Lawson fan by any stretch, but his words from the deposition speak for themselves. As you get away from the rumor-mongering in the crew rooms and move into the ALPA structure, you begin to realize that things aren't anywhere near what the conspiracy-theorists believe. That's what JC realized, and that's what all of you would realize if you actually got involved instead of spreading discontent.