RJDC a failure!

[stratus72]

Maybe I'm not getting my point across completely. There should be no RJ pilot vs. mainline pilot debate. WE should all be mainline pilots....you included.

Like Robert Crandall...I have always been against code-sharing in any form.

=================================

Don't assume you know how I think or what i would take. I'm very fortunate in that $$$ is not an issue with me.

However, I agree there should be no mainline debate.

 

[Jmoney]

scope is everything.

rjdc the way i understand it is a dfr lawsuit b/c alpa tried to enforce it's scope clause.... They had it all wrong-

what they should have done is sue the he!! out of alpa/mainline pilots for not protecting their scope enough.

To be Fair:

I am certainly no fan of the RJDC. I think the whole idea was just a ploy hatched by mgmt. to try and destroy ALPA from within.

BUT-In all fairness, the central issue of the lawsuit had to do with voting rights. Each airline in ALPA had one vote on the national board. At least they did until the regional pilots became numerous.... Each regional also had one vote, just like any major. ALPA giggered around with the voting rules until all regionals (about 35% of ALPA memmbership at the time) were all lumped together and had only a single vote.

In other words, the RJDC was pissed that each airline used to have a vote, and all of a sudden, this huge group of something like 5,000 pilots total is lumped into a group which had only one vote shared by many airlines.

Although I thought this part of the suit had a certain merit, I never did think suing ALPA was smart. I mean, what the hell are you going to get for that suit? You might just get a couple of majors to de-certify ALPA and that would screw us all.

My issue with the RJDC has always been "what the hell do you want to get?" You would hear all sorts of silly solutions for this lawsuit. Each one was less realistic and stupider than the previous. It quickly became apparent that these people were not reasonable and that their primary purpose was to destroy ALPA. I never did support the RJDC, and have since done nothing but ridicule them since it became apparent that they want nothing more than to help mgmt screw ALPA-just from the inside.

In truth, the suit was far more about voting rights than scope.

 

[freightdogfred]

No dog in this fight, but I'd sure like to give old Duane Woerth a kick in the nuts if I ever saw him...

 

[Occam's Razor]

No dog in this fight, but I'd sure like to give old Duane Woerth a kick in the nuts if I ever saw him...

Why...because he was right? Time to add another layer of tinfoil to your hat, twit.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I tried to leave this alone, but there is just so much bad information, disinformation and conjecture.

At its core the RJDC achieved it's primary representational goal which was to get Regional pilots ALPA Reps to the table with real management (as opposed to remote control subsidiary managers with no negotiating authority). Better yet, let us give ALPA the credit for finally opening the doors to representation. ALPA has now negotiated contracts where ASA binds SkyWest and Comair binds Delta.

The issue remains ... some pilots put more of a priority on unity and scope (my camp) and other pilots' priorities are contractual gains which can be reached by trading scope away. The good guys who serve us in ALPA's positions of leadership have to represent both camps, make compromises and take responsibility. Although it may sound like I throw stones, I humbly appreciate the work of my Reps.

Here's what I deleted ... flame suit zipped up.

Once upon a time ALPA was a union which brought pilots together to bargain collectively. Pilots fought against managers like EL Cord who would famously replace one pilot with another when one pilot refused a trip for safety reasons, or demanded more pay, or wanted to unionize. ALPA realized it's only power was through unity, representing all pilots and not giving managers like EL Cord, Lorenzo and others the ability to replace pilots - whipsawing one pilot against another.

ALPA's procedure to resolve conflicts was unity. Mergers to bring all pilots flying the brand's airplanes together. Pilots fought for this too. Ransome Airways ATR42 pilots became Pan Am pilots (considered among the top dogs of the day). Those Pan Am pilots retired from Delta Air Lines.

ALPA's focus shifted. The reasons for the change are many and debated among ALPA loyalists, I'll try not to go there.

ASA and Comair were rapidly growing regional carriers which initially were independent of Delta. ASA flew ASA flights using its' code, its' own marketing and its' own operational control. Comair was the same. I still have some ASA ticket stock. Both these airlines grew. As you pointed out, ASA had 105 seat jets on the property and management was talking about orders for 737's at ASA and DC9's at Comair.

The pilots thought they were airline pilots, like the other members of ALPA. They had enforceable scope with their management teams.

Mainline ALPA units were some of the first to know of managements' intentions to purchase regional carriers. Regional airlines were very profitable and buying them brought those profits in house and gave the mainline carrier operational control. However, the mainline pilots did not want mergers, so they changed ALPA policy to remove references to "operational integration" and leave mergers to the discretion of the involved ALPA MEC units.

When ASA and Comair were bought, the ALPA MEC's of both airlines requested a merger under ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws. The 2000 ALPA Board of Directors declined to invoke ALPA merger policy.

Management stripped Comair and ASA of the redundant parts of their businesses. ASA and Comair marketing, tickets and code were all bought by Delta and consolidated under Delta's business units.

The problem from a union perspective is that the traditional merger brought pilots together under one MEC to negotiate with one management. This was now effectively blocked since Comair and ASA were both managed by remote control from Delta. ASA and Comair's "managers" had no authority to negotiate, or enforce, contracts.

The previous ALPA Officers at ASA and Comair, as well as Air Safety and other Committee Chairs came together to find a solution. They needed:
(1) A way to get real management to the table;
(2) A structure to work with the mainline MEC that went beyond BBQ social events;
(3) Scope over 500 RJ's ordered by Delta Management in the year 200. (Today the RJ fleet is bigger than Delta's mainline fleet)

Scope is the glue that binds the company to the contract.

They wanted:
(1) A merger, since one list would fix all the problems brought to the table. Traditionally no windfall ALPA mergers have been sorted by pay and equipment. ASA and Comair's pay and equipment was smaller than Delta's. The merger would be a staple. Advantages to the Delta pilots were:

• Perfect scope... no outsourcing
• Job protection... thousands hired below Delta pilots
• Greater power... Delta's list would be around 14,000 today with TB Kane close to the top 40%
• Protection for longevity... during furlough, some Delta pilots came to ASA for first year pay... IMHO they should have enjoyed their Company longevity

Advantages to Delta management:

• Ability to maximize revenue by using the right sized airplanes (no 70 to 142 seat gap)
• Ability to minimize costs
• Stability
• Being able to avoid contractual entanglements

However, this was not the path chosen.

Worse, ALPA blocked ASA and Comair pilots from negotiating scope with their parent companies. Scope within ASA & Comair was non binding as management proved when Comair's and ASA's airplanes were transferred during contract negotiations. ASA could not get a contract and Comair's fight went into a full blown strike.

The RJDC worked for at least a year to resolve the representational problem within ALPA. The wall between the regional MEC's and their real employer had to come down for ALPA to do its' job at the regional level.

However, ALPA had a political problem on its hands. Legally, it owed the Regional pilots the same level of representation has the Mainline pilots, but, politically saying a Comair member was equal to a Delta member was political suicide.

ALPA got itself into a political no-win. They could not legally harm the Regional pilots and they sure could not be seen to cede power from Delta's powerful MEC.

Eventually the flight attendants began negotiating contracts that ALPA said were impossible. ALPA had to accept reality and allow regional airlines to negotiate contracts that bound their parent companies. Today ASA's contract binds SkyWest and Comair's binds Delta's.

The RJDC was made up of pilots who brought ALPA on to the property of ASA and Comair, who served in ALPA leadership and who served their fellow pilots on committees.

Say what you want about the intelligence of the RJDC effort, but at least they had the balls to take a stand for their belief in the union's core principles of unity and pilot representation.

A loss? How measured? Today they enjoy their own binding scope and pay increases compared to their year 2000 numbers.

This lawsuit settlement is nothing but historical marker. The significant loss was at the 2000 ALPA Board of Director's meeting when our union took a turn away from its own principles.

We again have an opportunity to embrace unity in our handling of the Delta / Northwest merger and I hope we learned something. Let's take it back.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Cost?

Who was to pay it?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

Soon our joint contract will have rates on this equipment. Alternatively, Compass's contract need not change to give them a number on the list. Taken on a productivity basis, mainline is underpaid relative to the RJ drivers.

Cost? I think we have been too busy selling scope to ask how much, if anything, it would cost to buy some. Admittedly I'm far removed from such negotiations. If you have some insights we'd all appreciate your perspective.

 

[outtahere]

I agree, now how do you put the toothpaste back in the tube? Personally I have no desire to go to a major and face the risk of fourlough. The reward just isn't that great. So, how do we make this fair for the guys like myself that don't want to be an FO again, or take a paycut and become fourlough fodder? Just for the record, I would love to go to Netjets and be an FO again, but the bastards won't call me for an interview!!!

 

[waveflyer]

In terms of voting rights-- that is a huge part of my argument- so i may be more ignorant than i thought. Part of my b!tch about scope in this world is exactly what outahere is talking about- it's a real dillemma to decide to go anywhere not named southwest, nja, fdx or ups from the so-called 'regionals'. Every legacy, you become exactly furlough fodder- w/ no vote to whether or not you're job will be scoped out again- and you'll be swinging gear for guys who's IOE you did just a few years ago.

And how did we get here as younger pilots? We didn't get one vote in who got what flying- and that's a huge problem. "Regionals" can be whipsawed w/o limit. Get too strong, and you lose your codeshare- comair and awac proved that-- along w/ UFIS, westair, the original mesa, etc etc- Combine that w/ getting no vote at the scope table and LEGACY pilots have completely disenfranchised GenX in their career.

Why should you care as a legacy pilot? (Other than your bottom 20% has been furloughed more often than not- punishing them for being good enough to win a job there-- and I MEAN PUNISHED! btw. Starting over, every time you recall just to furlough, just to release scope, just to pick up overtime)
You should care- b/c you've created a situation where it is a VERY REAL STEP UP to go to VIRGIN(!) You b!tch about those wages-- but have created the situation where a pilot is willing to fly for them.

Now your pay goes down as "industry standard" gets redefined.

Then you complete your job of destroying the career by voting RIGHT WING - and creating a situation where even a unified union has no leverage...

Like i've said-- i don't get the entire lot of you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I tried to leave this alone, but there is just so much bad information, disinformation and conjecture.

So much for self control?

At its core the RJDC achieved it's primary representational goal which was to get Regional pilots ALPA Reps to the table with real management (as opposed to remote control subsidiary managers with no negotiating authority). Better yet, let us give ALPA the credit for finally opening the doors to representation. ALPA has now negotiated contracts where ASA binds SkyWest and Comair binds Delta.

Sounds like a management issue. Did the RJDC sue management?

The issue remains ... some pilots put more of a priority on unity and scope (my camp) and other pilots' priorities are contractual gains which can be reached by trading scope away. The good guys who serve us in ALPA's positions of leadership have to represent both camps, make compromises and take responsibility. Although it may sound like I throw stones, I humbly appreciate the work of my Reps.

Here it is... the core of it all.... leadership. ALPA lacked it and so did the RJDC guys... Since both sides were at fault... the RJDC sued... real nice Fins...

Here's what I deleted ... flame suit zipped up.

As Diamond Dave sang:

Ooh, baby I'm checkin' out, I think you oughta know

I'm only wastin' time I think I better go​

You ain't too civilized, oh-oh-oh-oh-oh​

Loss of control​

Loss of control​

Loss of control​

Once upon a time ALPA was a union which brought pilots together to bargain collectively.

A fairy tale Fins? Wait... let me get my kids... they will like this....

Seriously... I think.... Once Upon a Time... when? The 1990's? The 1940's? Or maybe before there was regional flying... like the 50's, 60's and 70's... all yes the good ol days when ALPA was a real union and didn't have the regional flying to deal with...

Pilots fought against managers like EL Cord who would famously replace one pilot with another when one pilot refused a trip for safety reasons, or demanded more pay, or wanted to unionize. ALPA realized it's only power was through unity, representing all pilots and not giving managers like EL Cord, Lorenzo and others the ability to replace pilots - whipsawing one pilot against another.

Whipsawing individuals against each other... not entire pilot groups...

ALPA's procedure to resolve conflicts was unity. Mergers to bring all pilots flying the brand's airplanes together. Pilots fought for this too. Ransome Airways ATR42 pilots became Pan Am pilots (considered among the top dogs of the day). Those Pan Am pilots retired from Delta Air Lines.

So how does suing ALPA help the unity?

ALPA's focus shifted. The reasons for the change are many and debated among ALPA loyalists, I'll try not to go there.

But yet if we don't understand them then how can we learn and make progressive changes? Or is it really just a matter of opinion... so you that is why you won't go there?

ASA and Comair were rapidly growing regional carriers which initially were independent of Delta. ASA flew ASA flights using its' code, its' own marketing and its' own operational control. Comair was the same. I still have some ASA ticket stock. Both these airlines grew. As you pointed out, ASA had 105 seat jets on the property and management was talking about orders for 737's at ASA and DC9's at Comair.

I knew management was involved somehow!!

The pilots thought they were airline pilots, like the other members of ALPA. They had enforceable scope with their management teams.

all right...

Mainline ALPA units were some of the first to know of managements' intentions to purchase regional carriers. Regional airlines were very profitable and buying them brought those profits in house and gave the mainline carrier operational control. However, the mainline pilots did not want mergers, so they changed ALPA policy to remove references to "operational integration" and leave mergers to the discretion of the involved ALPA MEC units.

A mistake on those arrogant mainline pilots... a reason to sue?

When ASA and Comair were bought, the ALPA MEC's of both airlines requested a merger under ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws. The 2000 ALPA Board of Directors declined to invoke ALPA merger policy.

Democracy!! Damm!

Management stripped Comair and ASA of the redundant parts of their businesses. ASA and Comair marketing, tickets and code were all bought by Delta and consolidated under Delta's business units.

I am sure many ASA and CMR like the idea!!

The problem from a union perspective is that the traditional merger brought pilots together under one MEC to negotiate with one management. This was now effectively blocked since Comair and ASA were both managed by remote control from Delta. ASA and Comair's "managers" had no authority to negotiate, or enforce, contracts.

So sue... who?? the mainline bastards!!!

The previous ALPA Officers at ASA and Comair, as well as Air Safety and other Committee Chairs came together to find a solution. They needed:
(1) A way to get real management to the table;

Sue ALPA?

(2) A structure to work with the mainline MEC that went beyond BBQ social events;

So if the ASA/CMR guys couldn't be social at the BBQ why would they be expected to be social at the scope/merger meetings?

My point? If you can't behave socially and be liked at a ATL or CVG pig pickin' drinkin' beer then why would anyone want to spend time with you in a serious professional setting.

This is what you RJDC guys never got... You didn't have the social skillset to form relationships and alliances so you sued the bastards...

This is like Eugenes' parents suing other parents cause the kids won't play with Eugene.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

(3) Scope over 500 RJ's ordered by Delta Management in the year 200. (Today the RJ fleet is bigger than Delta's mainline fleet)

Scope is the glue that binds the company to the contract.

And the RJDC is just as guilty as ALPA for screwing it all up...

They wanted:
(1) A merger, since one list would fix all the problems brought to the table. Traditionally no windfall ALPA mergers have been sorted by pay and equipment. ASA and Comair's pay and equipment was smaller than Delta's. The merger would be a staple. Advantages to the Delta pilots were:

• Perfect scope... no outsourcing
• Job protection... thousands hired below Delta pilots
• Greater power... Delta's list would be around 14,000 today with TB Kane close to the top 40%
• Protection for longevity... during furlough, some Delta pilots came to ASA for first year pay... IMHO they should have enjoyed their Company longevity

But ASA and CMR were persona non grata at the BBQ!!!!

Advantages to Delta management:

• Ability to maximize revenue by using the right sized airplanes (no 70 to 142 seat gap)
• Ability to minimize costs
• Stability
• Being able to avoid contractual entanglements

However, this was not the path chosen.

And that is all of our faults... still no justification to sue...

Worse, ALPA blocked ASA and Comair pilots from negotiating scope with their parent companies. Scope within ASA & Comair was non binding as management proved when Comair's and ASA's airplanes were transferred during contract negotiations. ASA could not get a contract and Comair's fight went into a full blown strike.

Because since ASA/CMR blew the BBQ and were now ready to take from the mainline guys...

The RJDC worked for at least a year to resolve the representational problem within ALPA. The wall between the regional MEC's and their real employer had to come down for ALPA to do its' job at the regional level.

Actually it seems like the RJDC needed to have a BBQ and fix the "social' stuff.

However, ALPA had a political problem on its hands. Legally, it owed the Regional pilots the same level of representation has the Mainline pilots, but, politically saying a Comair member was equal to a Delta member was political suicide.

How dare ALPA be a political organization.... (kinda like saying.. how dare the Pope be Catholic)

ALPA got itself into a political no-win. They could not legally harm the Regional pilots and they sure could not be seen to cede power from Delta's powerful MEC.

So instead of understanding that... the RJDC sued...

Eventually the flight attendants began negotiating contracts that ALPA said were impossible. ALPA had to accept reality and allow regional airlines to negotiate contracts that bound their parent companies. Today ASA's contract binds SkyWest and Comair's binds Delta's.

The RJDC was made up of pilots who brought ALPA on to the property of ASA and Comair, who served in ALPA leadership and who served their fellow pilots on committees.

But couldn't attend a BBQ with a follow up invitation to a meeting.

Say what you want about the intelligence of the RJDC effort, but at least they had the balls to take a stand for their belief in the union's core principles of unity and pilot representation.

There is a little BBQ sauce on the RJDCs' face.......

A loss? How measured? Today they enjoy their own binding scope and pay increases compared to their year 2000 numbers.

Ahh.. so its all about them now... who cares about the mainline guys! Who cares about anyone but themselves!!

What happened to unity? Or is that just a talking point when it serves the RJDC purposes...

This lawsuit settlement is nothing but historical marker. The significant loss was at the 2000 ALPA Board of Director's meeting when our union took a turn away from its own principles.

Perhaps... but it seems like politiking... influencing, grassroots efforts, etc was the way to go. How about saying... "I think the 2000BOD made a mistake here is why and here what we can do... win win for everyone..."

We again have an opportunity to embrace unity in our handling of the Delta / Northwest merger and I hope we learned something. Let's take it back.

Maybe you need to have a BBQ.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In the end, the only bad side was that ALPA had to pay some of their legal bills.

Every ALPA pilot had to pay their legal bills...

In terms of voting rights-- that is a huge part of my argument- so i may be more ignorant than i thought. Part of my b!tch about scope in this world is exactly what outahere is talking about- it's a real dillemma to decide to go anywhere not named southwest, nja, fdx or ups from the so-called 'regionals'. Every legacy, you become exactly furlough fodder- w/ no vote to whether or not you're job will be scoped out again- and you'll be swinging gear for guys who's IOE you did just a few years ago.

And how did we get here as younger pilots? We didn't get one vote in who got what flying- and that's a huge problem. "Regionals" can be whipsawed w/o limit. Get too strong, and you lose your codeshare- comair and awac proved that-- along w/ UFIS, westair, the original mesa, etc etc- Combine that w/ getting no vote at the scope table and LEGACY pilots have completely disenfranchised GenX in their career.

Why should you care as a legacy pilot? (Other than your bottom 20% has been furloughed more often than not- punishing them for being good enough to win a job there-- and I MEAN PUNISHED! btw. Starting over, every time you recall just to furlough, just to release scope, just to pick up overtime)
You should care- b/c you've created a situation where it is a VERY REAL STEP UP to go to VIRGIN(!) You b!tch about those wages-- but have created the situation where a pilot is willing to fly for them.

Now your pay goes down as "industry standard" gets redefined.

Then you complete your job of destroying the career by voting RIGHT WING - and creating a situation where even a unified union has no leverage...

Like i've said-- i don't get the entire lot of you.

Well said.... ALPA has successfully copied our culture paradigm... which is "Pull up the Ladder, I've got mine"...

Until the senior guys start looking out for everyone... the senior guys will continue to be screwed....