RJDC 6/26 update

[FurloughedAgain]

Surplus said,

create a new subsidiary with no retirement....

For what it's worth, MidAtlantic is not a subsidiary -- it has no certificate of its own. It is a division of mainline US Airways, similar to Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Shuttle by United et al.

The aircraft are flown on the US Airways certificate by US Airways pilots. (their callsign is USAir as well) The only difference is that MidAtlantic is subject to a fence which prevents pilots from bidding back and forth between "MidAtlantic" and "mainline".

Chautauqua/Republic have a similar fence arrangement.

Surplus is right. As of now there is no complete contract, and the retirement consists of 401K plus matching only.

It did do one thing though. It acts as a bridge between wholly-owned subsidiaries and mainline US Airways. A single seniority list was created (albeit forced upon some of the wholly owneds) in which the wholly owned pilots are offered the opportunity to "flow" to MidAtlantic (and they may preference which seat they would like to be called to) and then -- assuming the company survives -- flow to US Airways.

If they decline the flow their seat at their respective carriers is theirs forever. Their seniority is theirs forever. If they accept the flow they bring their longevity to MidAtlantic for pay purposes -- a benefit that was not offered to the furloughed pilots (some of whome have in excess of 15 years seniority).

Assuming the carrier survives there will never be another "newhire" at US Airways. The most junior aircraft at US Airways will, at least for the time being, be a Dash-8 or CRJ. With 1800 pilots on furlough and another 2000 at the wholly-owneds on the CEL (combined eligibility list) it will be a long time for many of them to flow to the mainline. But if US Airways survives MidAtlantic will have done a great service to the pilots by removing Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA from the whipsaw.

It ain't perfect I admit. But coming from a company such as US Airways, i'd say its not a half-bad start.

 

[michael707767]

Between the glass ceiling of 70-seats max and the actual low end of the mainline work today lies a gray area that neither the mainline (Delta pilots) nor the subsidiaries (DCI) have entered as yet. That is defined by the gap between DAL's smallest aircraft and DCI's largest aircraft, i.e., the 71-100+ seat range. This is virgin territory for both groups.

Actually, its not virgin territory. The Delta pilots have flwon aircraft in the 71-100 seat range, but thats not the point. There will always be an unfilled gap. Thats why the limit is set at 70 seats. If one way or another, the Delta pilots were to allow an aircraft in the 71-99 seat range to be flown by someone else, "outsourced", just exactly how many 100 seaters do you think would be flown at the mainline? None. Allowing outsourcing on aircraft up to 100 seats would just create a new "gap". All the sudden it you would not see any aircraft in the 100-140 seat range at the mainline, and there would be cries from guys like you that this gap needs to be filled. No, the seat limit is where it is for a reason. Effectively, it protects the 100 seat flying.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

hey pylit

come on over and get the books and have 7 (only) sims and take the checkride.

 

[ifly4food]

Fins,

You and I are on the same side (I think) but please, don't think that any part of this equation is about what is "fair".

I'm not familair with the displacement provisions of the current ASA contract, so I don't know how your ATR pilots will be reassigned.

However, you do have a seniority section and a filling of vacancies section in your contract. Unless your MEC or your pilot group agrees to J4J, there is no way that anyone can force Delta pilots onto to your "list" ahead of ASA pilots. They can put them on the bottom of your list but they cannot give them "super seniority" without your consent. Your contract is "amendable" but (short of bankruptcy) the status quo remains in place.

Please tell me that your MEC is NOT considering some foolish agreement like the one at PDT/PSA/ALG/CHQ/TSA/MES. Your posts are leading me to suspect that you might be. Tell me that I'm wrong, please.

No, Surplus, our MEC is NOT considering anything of the sort. A J4J scheme hasn't even been proposed.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Then we would get most of the new 70 seaters and 100 seaters. Dalpa will not give up jobs, and Delta (Grinstein) wants his large pay cuts. Flight Safety won't mind who uses the sims----Delta pays for them anyways. The recalls are set, and the new airplanes I believe will be mostly 100 seaters and some 70 seaters.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You are hilarious!

You guys have no leverage. You WILL give up the farm because you don't want to loose half of your retirement in BK.
Do you really think that you guys are going into this thing with demands? Come on. Wke up and smell the coffee. You people will be told what the deal will be or it is straight to the BK judge. From what I have read, Mr. G. aint looking to "negotiate" any thing......he knows what he needs, which is now way more than he needed from you last time, and if he don't get it, well, you know the rest of the story.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus said,
For what it's worth, MidAtlantic is not a subsidiary -- it has no certificate of its own. It is a division of mainline US Airways, similar to Song, Metrojet, Delta Express, Shuttle by United et al.

Technically you are correct with respect to MidAtlantic. Sorry, there were so many ever-changing Letters of Agreement that I had a temporary lapse of memory. With resptect to Song I believe it is a corporate subsidiary of Delta Air Lines like Comair, but I'm not sure about the operating certificate. You say MAA has not certificate -- does it have a "corporate" identity?

One difference is that Song's pilots have a common "list" and contract with Delta mainline; not the same as MAA. However, the other Song employees are not Delta employees. The MAA pilot group does not appear to have a common list with USAirways. If it did, U pilots would not have to give up their longevity when they elect to fly for MAA and start at year one. In the absence of a valid contract for MAA pilots, it's anybody's guess as to what they have or don't have or when they have or don't have it.

It did do one thing though. It acts as a bridge between wholly-owned subsidiaries and mainline US Airways. A single seniority list was created (albeit forced upon some of the wholly owneds) in which the wholly owned pilots are offered the opportunity to "flow" to MidAtlantic (and they may preference which seat they would like to be called to) and then -- assuming the company survives -- flow to US Airways.

What you're really saying is that its a "double flow-through" from PDT/ALG/PSA to MAA to AAA, at least in theory and until the next change in the LOA. That could have been avoided many years ago were it not for the intransigence of the AAA MEC. We all have our opinions as to the "value" of this "deal" and its duration, even if AAA does ultimately survive. If there was ever a convoluted abortion, in my opinion it meets that requirement and then some.

But if US Airways survives MidAtlantic will have done a great service to the pilots by removing Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA from the whipsaw.

And replacing them with MAA? Such a deal. And then of course there are so many other "code-share" subcontractors that it's almost impossible to keep track of them. AAA management and the ALPA unit at U could hardly have created a bigger mess.

It ain't perfect I admit. But coming from a company such as US Airways, i'd say its not a half-bad start.

Like they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." I have no doubt that Beebe thinks he did a great thing. I guess ALPA thinks he did too since it was followed by his "election" to National office. The Peter Principle appears to work in labor unions much like it works in the rest of corporate America.

I have a lot of friends at U whose views don't seem to fully echo yours. The "big picture" over there has more than one perspective, just like the picture at DAL.

The whole thing is somewhat of a mess, I'd say, and from the looks of things it will get messier before it gets better.

Regards

 

[surplus1]

Actually, its not virgin territory. The Delta pilots have flwon aircraft in the 71-100 seat range, but thats not the point.

Of course you're right Michael. The Delta pilots have flown aircraft with 28-seats, and 54-seats too but, as you say, that wasn't the point.

There will always be an unfilled gap. Thats why the limit is set at 70 seats. If one way or another, the Delta pilots were to allow an aircraft in the 71-99 seat range to be flown by someone else, "outsourced", just exactly how many 100 seaters do you think would be flown at the mainline? None. Allowing outsourcing on aircraft up to 100 seats would just create a new "gap". All the sudden it you would not see any aircraft in the 100-140 seat range at the mainline, and there would be cries from guys like you that this gap needs to be filled. No, the seat limit is where it is for a reason. Effectively, it protects the 100 seat flying.

All of that is correct but for two exceptions. 1)I am not crying for the gap to be filled by guys like me. 2) The creation of a gap was not mandatory, it was voluntary. There would be no "gap" at all if there were no alter egos. There would be no alter egos if the Delta MEC/ALPA had not permitted that condition to exist. In fact they actually created it and then acted to perpetuate it.

My only real argument is that once you create a gap by drawing an artificial line, you can't keep changing that gap by redrawing the line whenever and wherever you want it.

It is not the concept of a "gap" that causes the conflict, it is the constant attempts to redefine it, at our expense. The line was drawn at 70-seats and everything below it unlimited. Put it back to that position and the conflict will go away and the market will take care of the rest.

On the other side of that coin, if the Delta pilots continue efforts to take the 70-seat "gauge" and restrict the 50-seat "quage", they can expect that effort to be countered, including exposure to a battle for the 71-100 seat range.

As you yourself point out, for as long as there is a "changing gap", efforts to manipulate it by one group or the other will continue. We did not advocate this "variable gap". The Delta pilots did. There are consequences to everything that we do.

"Self preservation is nature's first law." That is a two-way street, both in nature and in the airline business. Wherever there is a predator the intended victim will seek ways to preserve the survival of his species. That may include becoming a predator himself.

"Be careful what you ask for; you might get it."

 

[~~~^~~~]

No, Surplus, our MEC is NOT considering anything of the sort. A J4J scheme hasn't even been proposed.

How do you know? ALPA's J4J protocol ( US Air, United, and now NWA ) makes the predatory mainline bargaining unilateral, since in ALPA's view all the flying belongs to mainline anyway.

You know that Delta needs work rules changes, you know Delta is paying furlough protected pilots to sit at home now, you know that more efficient utilization of Delta pilots will result in more furloughs ( 800 to 1,000 ) and you know Delta would love to have an RJ pay rate to put these guys on. You also know that Delta is the only carrier without a jets for jobs program and you know ALPA and Delta are currently in negotiations. You can either connect the dots for yourself, or wait a couple weeks for written confirmation.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

Unless your MEC or your pilot group agrees to J4J, there is no way that anyone can force Delta pilots onto to your "list" ahead of ASA pilots. They can put them on the bottom of your list but they cannot give them "super seniority" without your consent. Your contract is "amendable" but (short of bankruptcy) the status quo remains in place.

Please tell me that your MEC is NOT considering some foolish agreement like the one at PDT/PSA/ALG/CHQ/TSA/MES. Your posts are leading me to suspect that you might be. Tell me that I'm wrong, please.

Surplus :

Our MEC has been in the love in mode with John Malone because he "understands" our issues and the "BSIC is for real now." We are also given the message that "ALPA is a Democracy and we can only do the best we can within the system by coalition building." Our MEC still has not recovered from the fact that they were right on the PID, but the politics were wrong. Now they are pragmatists.

I expect our MEC will be given the same tremendously difficult choice faced by the US Air Express MEC's - either to go along with J4J with "super seniority" in exchange for a flow through, or, be left to bid amongst any and all wanna be DCI carriers for airplanes under a J4J scheme ( and likely being shut out ).

In their shoes, I'm not sure what I'd do.... The fact this will be a done deal before the DCI MEC's have any confirmation it has happened just makes it more difficult to address.

The ASA pilots have a lot bigger fish to fry than their current contract, negotiations are about to go into a completely new paradigm - we are going to be negotiating for the scraps after mainline eats their fill.

~~~^~~~

 

[avrodriverj85]

Don't forget about the b.s. brewing over at NWA and the fallout it will have on XJ and 9E.

 

[JohnDoe]

You mean your phantom "Jets for jobs" program?

Or the flying that is in mainline's contract to do. A contract signed by NW management.

 

[surplus1]

Fins,

Your posts are begining to worry me some. It sounds like you may be willing to give up and throw in the towel. I think that's premature. While I don't pretend to know what you want or what your pilot group wants, whatever it is should be worth fighting for. Your adversaries have always had the "upper hand" and your union has always been against your interests. That will never change unless you are willing to do whatever it takes to make it change. Yes, you may lose the battle, but you will surely lose the war if you just give up. Keep the faith.

Surplus :

Our MEC has been in the love in mode with John Malone because he "understands" our issues and the "BSIC is for real now." We are also given the message that "ALPA is a Democracy and we can only do the best we can within the system by coalition building." Our MEC still has not recovered from the fact that they were right on the PID, but the politics were wrong. Now they are pragmatists.

That amazes me. Malone "understands" your issues? Isn't Malone the same man that negotiated to stop your growth, limit your equipment and restrict the rest of your flying? If your MEC truly feels that he "understands" your issues about all I can say is that I don't understand your issues or your MEC.

The "BSIC is for real now" -- what does that mean? BSIC is an interesting acronym. It stands for "Bull Sh*t Infested Conundrum". It's objective is to obscure issues, laden you with conjecture and create delay. Its only purpose has always been to serve as a placebo for the ignorant while providing the time frame for your continued and further exploitation.

ALPA a democracy? Yet another oxymoron. ALPA is not a democracy it is an oligarchy. It creates the ilusion of democracy in order to provide advantage to the few that actually control it. Its structure contains no checks and balances, no independent process of revue or oversight and no independent executive power. It is designed to foster patronage and enhance the advantages of the powerful. It offers no gaurantees or protection of even the most basic rights of the minority. It is perhaps one of the most perverse examples of democracy that one could muster.

I expect our MEC will be given the same tremendously difficult choice faced by the US Air Express MEC's - either to go along with J4J with "super seniority" in exchange for a flow through, or, be left to bid amongst any and all wanna be DCI carriers for airplanes under a J4J scheme ( and likely being shut out ).

This could happen and it is highly probable that it will be attempted, by the very "friends" that allegedly "understand" you. If it does take place, my MEC will have the same choices as yours. It is left to be seen whether these MEC's will give in to the political pressures or rise to the occasion and defend the rights of their membership. It is left also to be seen whether they will include the membership in the decision making process directly or whether they will decide for us, what is best for us, in the typical "democratic" ALPA style.

We already know what the institution to which our MEC's belong will do and should expect no change from its already demonstrated modus operandi. Hopefully our MEC's will not be duped into allowing their own destruction. If you're a Star Trek fan, then you will recognize the similarities between ALPA and the Borg. "You [we] will be assimilated; resistance is futile." Well, resistance is always futile -- when you choose not to resist.

In their shoes, I'm not sure what I'd do.... The fact this will be a done deal before the DCI MEC's have any confirmation it has happened just makes it more difficult to address.

"The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer."

Because Malone "understands" your issues you can be assured that the "deal making" that affects you will be done behind the scenes and without the knowledge of our MEC's. That's more of ALPA's democracy. Perhaps the ongoing litigation will keep them at bay, but I suspect they will ignore the advice of their lawyers, take the risk and do as they please. They've always been able to get away with that in the past and will likely assume they can do it again. Arrogance breeds more arrogance. Eventually however, there will be a "day in court" that just might modify their thought processes and turn the tide.

The ASA pilots have a lot bigger fish to fry than their current contract, negotiations are about to go into a completely new paradigm - we are going to be negotiating for the scraps after mainline eats their fill.
~~~^~~~

Anything is possible but I'm not as pessimistic as you are. I will continue to support the defense of our rights and demand that our union act to protect our interests. Whether or not our MEC's decide to get off the political fence and choose to defend what is right, which so far neither one of them has done, I will keep trying until the courts decide against us. I continue to believe that the courts will make the right decision, which will not be in favor of the ALPA.

Best wishes.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


Any New Aircraft can be negotiated by Dalpa---and their uses can be up to management and Dalpa. Malone has stated that he will not give up jobs---and the only place to grow now it seems is in the 70-100 seat arena. For the right amount of pay cut and the lower wage scale for certain new aircraft (something Dalpa has done before with Delta Express)---Dalpa will get something out of this deal. The NW MEC has stated that anything 70 seats and up will be flown by NW mainline, and you know Dalpa, National Alpa, and even the NW MEC are talking---trying to figure out what to do. We will all eventually take a hit here--because the "economics" have changed. Dalpa has been waiting to negotiate--and now everyone--including the creditors--will be involved.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

Any New Aircraft can be negotiated by Dalpa---and their uses can be up to management and Dalpa.

General,

I don't know what you mean by "New Aircraft" and I don't want to guess. When you define it I'll comment.

Malone has stated that he will not give up jobs---and the only place to grow now it seems is in the 70-100 seat arena.

Candidly, what Malone says is of about as much interest to me as what I say is of interest to him. Having said that, I don't think the Delta pilots should "give up jobs". I don't know of any pilot group asking you to give up the jobs you already have. Change that number to 71-100 and I'll have no problem with it. That's open territory and you have every right to bargain for it. Of course, so do we.

For the right amount of pay cut and the lower wage scale for certain new aircraft (something Dalpa has done before with Delta Express)---Dalpa will get something out of this deal.

I hope you do get something for whatever you give up. As long as that "something" isn't in my territory, I wish you luck. When it is our turn in the barrel I'm sure we'll take the same approach. You want us to "follow in your footsteps" so it should not bother you when we do.

The NW MEC has stated that anything 70 seats and up will be flown by NW mainline, and you know Dalpa, National Alpa, and even the NW MEC are talking---trying to figure out what to do.

NWA has a long standing contract with a dividing line at 56-seats and an "grandfather exemption" for 36 Avros w/69 seats. If their company buys a new 70-seat airframe they will not be taking anything from anyone, by attempting to maintain the status quo. Whether or not they can hold that line is left to be seen. However, they are not trying to change something "after the fact." That is quite different from what the Delta MEC did and is still trying to do more of.

Yes, I know that ALPA National is trying to figure out how to ensure that only mainline pilots fly 70-seaters; they've been doing it for years. I also know that DMEC has been trying to do the same thing, also for years. There is nothing new about the collusion between you two.

We will all eventually take a hit here--because the "economics" have changed. Dalpa has been waiting to negotiate--and now everyone--including the creditors--will be involved.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Yes sir, the "economics" have changed, even though the President (GWB) keeps telling us that they haven't and it's "better than ever." They're not favorable to anyone right now, especially the legacy carriers. I see reports that your company is now demanding 1 billion dollars from the Delta pilots. I sincerely hope that you will not have to do anything close to that. If true, it's a lot more than their last demand and I can't see how you could do that much. 50% is something I would not want to see. Malone has a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to take the 70-seaters from us. The threat of BK is a lot more onerous than some regional jets (that make money for the company).

It's a very difficult situation and believe it or not I'm really wishing the best for you guys and hoping you can come out of this with a minimum down side for all of you.

I don't exactly know what you mean by "everyone will be involved". As long as it does NOT mean that your MEC will attempt again to negotiate for us or use us as a bargaining chip in your negotiations, I'm ok with that. If and when the company comes to us again, we'll handle our own negotiations, thank you.

I wish the best for you. But, it bothers me that you don't seem to wish the same for us. As long as you see us as a threat to your well being, it is virtually impossible for us to see you as anything but the same.

 

[spinproof]

The General and his ilk are what they are....arrogant aholes! They could have prevented all this years ago with a "simple" staple...But "NO"..defient to end, they still don't get it!

Sin in haste DALPA..repent at leisure...I personally have no simpathy for any of you! You will get what you deserve. PERIOD!

No amount of your tired diatrib will change that.

...anyone know the difference between a porcupine and a BMW full of Delta mainline pilots..........a porcupine has the pricks on the outside!

 

[CTS]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040706/delta_pilots_4.html

General, How are you guys going to staff these new 70-100 seaters? You lost 216 last september and now your loosing 300 pilots in June alone. The return of the Furloughed pilots will be to fill your current planes. And why would DAL pilots want to fly RJ's why not buy some 7E7's. Very efficient airplane.

"Delta shares fell 25 cents, or nearly 4 percent, to close at $6.59 in Tuesday trading on the New York Stock Exchange. Lose another $1.60 and DAL will be condidered a Penny stock. (less than 5 a share for those who dont know)

 

[InclusiveScope]

General said:
"Any New Aircraft can be negotiated by Dalpa---and their uses can be up to management and Dalpa."

General,
The negotiatiors may be from "DALPA", but there is no bargaining agent called "DALPA" After the negotiators from "DALPA" agree to something with Delta, the agreement must be signed by ALPA. ALPA is also MY bargaining agent.

You sound like you OWN ALPA. You and I SHOULD be EQUAL members of ALPA.

 

[General Lee]

CTS,


We currently have a 75 hour cap, and all they would have to do is raise it 5-7 hours and a lot of it would be covered. But, Malone has said that he will not eliminate any jobs, so the only place to put the incoming 30 pilots a month is with new aircraft (after a pay cut).

Inclusivescope,

So, if we want to create pay rates for a new 7E7--we would have to run it by your RJDC thugs too, right? Give me a break. We can create pay rates for any NEW aircraft and fly them. If the company agrees to the new LOWER pay rates--they can also decide where to put them--and if they want lower rates--they will be with us. This is how it worked with Delta Express---and that took 4 more years to clear up. But, Dalpa has a history of this, and even NW and their MEC are starting to grab plane types--they said they will fly anything 70 seats and up. Jetblue then just crushed everyone with very low 100 seater rates that will be the bench mark. These are things you should also be worrying about--the Jetblue management just set your future wages. Can the RJDC fire some mean letters over to them too? Do it! They just ruined your future earning potential. Now, if you really want to make a descent living--you should hope that Delta mainline survives and that you can eventually come over.....(or go to Southwest or Fedex)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

CTS,

>>>> and even NW and their MEC are starting to grab plane types--they said they will fly anything 70 seats and up.

You are misrepresenting the NW piots. They aren't grabbing anything. Their contract already says they fly anything from 56-seats up. They are not making a retroactive grab like some other folks tried.

Jetblue then just crushed everyone with very low 100 seater rates that will be the bench mark. These are things you should also be worrying about--the Jetblue management just set your future wages.

You're off base again and blaming the wrong people. JB didn't set anybody's wages and it is they that should be screaming at ALPA for the stupidity of forcing them into this low-ball pay scale. Their management is merely following in the footsteps of the ALPA scales established at USAirways.

Come on General, you're slipping. Now that you know what you'll be making when you get the 100-seater you want, know also who you should thank for the low wages YOU will get. It's not JB, it is ALPA!

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,

So, if we want to create pay rates for a new 7E7--we would have to run it by your RJDC thugs too, right? Give me a break. We can create pay rates for any NEW aircraft and fly them. If the company agrees to the new LOWER pay rates--they can also decide where to put them--and if they want lower rates--they will be with us. This is how it worked with Delta Express---and that took 4 more years to clear up. But, Dalpa has a history of this, and even NW and their MEC are starting to grab plane types--they said they will fly anything 70 seats and up. Jetblue then just crushed everyone with very low 100 seater rates that will be the bench mark. These are things you should also be worrying about--the Jetblue management just set your future wages. Can the RJDC fire some mean letters over to them too? Do it! They just ruined your future earning potential. Now, if you really want to make a descent living--you should hope that Delta mainline survives and that you can eventually come over.....(or go to Southwest or Fedex)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, you missed the point AGAIN. The RJDC is suing ALPA for it's failure to represent ASA and CMR pilots fairly - PERIOD!!! You can negotiate any payrates you want. JetBlue can do the same. The RJDC has nothing to do with that. However many RJDC supporters have been saying that this would be a result of ALPA's failed scope policies. When you bid on flying, the pay will go down. Why does ALPA continue to support a bidding war on each property?