Ricci/Rossi coming back to FLOPS?!

[dime line]

We are not going to get everything that NJ pilots got in our first contract. I hope we are very close in pay, benefits, and work rules but some of the extra benies you guys get we may not. just the facts of life at Floptions.

Ill be voting no then.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Just sayin'...

Ill be voting no then.

...and hopefully that will mean it will be modified...I've seen too many times in aviation where no one's input (as a group) is taken...then suddenly this TA goes out for vote...Then GUESS WHAT...it comes with the fear disclaimer "Oh, By the way it's either "yes" or the entire contract has to be thrown out and start all over from the beginning." Hope our guys wouldn't do that, but as I said, seen it time and time again, coupled with the inane all or nothing fear tactic with everything being blamed on "that's how the RLA works," or some other inane reason. That's why (as I have said in the past) it is so important to properly gather the wishes of the majority AS YOU GO, so you don't end up with something that p*sses a lot of people off and is forced upon them. I KNOW our guys aren't out there purposely working against us, but I haven't seen a whole lot of surveying going on (and I don't mean on msg boards or questioning people on the road. REAL surveying.
That said, our guys have worked hard and I don't expect that they'd do us wrong, especially since those of us who have stayed have been drug through the ringer and are on the edge as it is.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

We are not going to get everything that NJ pilots got in our first contract. I hope we are very close in pay, benefits, and work rules but some of the extra benies you guys get we may not. just the facts of life at Floptions.

Why that attitude about being Flops? Have you forgotten that for quite some time FLOPS was paid higher than NJA? Sounds like the NJA brainwashing being done on this forum is starting to affect the thinking of some? Too much "Buffet" kool-aid? FLOPS keeps all of its other costs lower, so they should have no problem bring us back to being paid higher than NJAs, and get back to being competitive with a HAPPY pilot group that will reflect positively on the "new" company. No need for some blowhards to make you feel "less than" when they know d@mn well the tables were turned very recently for quite a while.
Cycles, cycles....

 

[FR8DOG777]

You're Joking Right?

We are not going to get everything that NJ pilots got in our first contract. I hope we are very close in pay, benefits, and work rules but some of the extra benies you guys get we may not. just the facts of life at Floptions.

It is that kind of thinking that management is trying to perpetuate by dragging these negotiations out. Not only have they made our lives miserable for over two years they have had time to save up. They could have settled for less at an earlier stage in the game with the NJA 05 cba and they blew it. I have faith our 1108 leadership will not settle for anything less. If I am still here I will be voting no along with dime. Pay up suckers or close the doors.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Better check you're tire pressures too below 90% is bad

PROPER INFLATION PROCEDURES​

​

​

(CONT’D)​

Mounted Tube-Type Tires​

A tube-type tire that has been freshly mounted and installed should be closely monitored during the first
week of operation, ideally before every takeoff. Air trapped between the tire and the tube at the time of
mounting will seep out under the beads, through sidewall vents or around the valve stem, resulting in an
underinflated assembly.​

Mounted Tubeless Tires​

A slight amount of gas diffusion through the liner material and casing of tubeless tires is normal. The
sidewalls are purposely vented in the lower sidewall area to bleed off trapped gases, preventing separation
or blisters.​

​

​

A tire/wheel assembly can lose as much as five percent (5%) of the inflation pressure in a
24-hour period and still be considered normal. If a soap solution is used to check leaks, it is normal for
small amounts of bubbles to be observed coming from the vent holes.​

COLD PRESSURE SETTING​

The following recommendations apply to cold inflation pressure setting:
1. Minimum service pressure for safe aircraft operation is the cold unloaded inflation pressure specified by
the airframe manufacturer.
2. The loaded service inflation must be specified four percent (4%) higher than the unloaded inflation.
3. A tolerance of minus zero (-0) to plus five percent (+5%) of the minimum pressure is the recommended
operating range.
4. If “in-service” pressure is checked and found to be less than the minimum pressure, the following table
should be consulted. An “in-service” tire is defined as a tire installed on an operating aircraft.​

PROCEDURES FOR HOT TIRE INFLATION PRESSURE CHECKS​

When it is deemed necessary to make “hot” tire inflation pressure checks between normal 24 hourly
“cold” tire pressure checks, follow these procedures to identify any tire that has lost pressure faster than
its axle mate(s).​

Cold Tire Service Pressure Recommended Action​

100 to 105 percent of loaded service pressure None - normal cold tire operating range.
95 to less than 100 percent of loaded service pressure Reinflate to specified service pressure.
90 to less than 95 percent of loaded service pressure Inspect tire/wheel assembly for cause of pressure loss.
Reinflate & record in log book.
Remove tire/wheel assembly if pressure loss is greater
than 5% and reoccurs within 24 hours.
80 to less than 90 percent of loaded service pressure Remove tire/wheel assembly from aircraft
(See​

​

​

NOTE below).
Less than 80 percent of loaded service pressure Remove tire/wheel assembly and adjacent tire/wheel
assembly from aircraft (See NOTE below).
0 percent Scrap tire and mate if air loss occurred while rolling
(See NOTE below).​

NOTE:​

​

​

​

Any tire removed due to a pressure loss condition should be returned to an authorized repair
facility or retreader, along with a description of the removal reason, to verify that the casing has not
sustained internal degradation and is acceptable for continued service.
Do not approach a tire/wheel assembly that shows signs of physical damage which might
compromise its structural integrity. If such conditions exist refer to operator safety procedures
for damaged tire/wheel assemblies.
THIS PROCEDURE DOES NOT REDUCE OR REPLACE THE NEED AND IMPORTANCE OF​

24-HOURLY “COLD” TIRE PRESSURE CHECKS.

 

[shanes123]

I agree..If this contract Doesnt Dwarf NJ..I will vote NO..Pay up or Close the doors..Its the Cost of doing business..If you cant afford it..Your out of business
Seems simple to me

 

[Publishers]

Now that is the voice of reason.

 

[fischman]

I agree..If this contract Doesnt Dwarf NJ..I will vote NO..Pay up or Close the doors..Its the Cost of doing business..If you cant afford it..Your out of business
Seems simple to me

As an NJA guy, I have to tell you...


I hope it does. Good luck guys. :beer:

 

[netjetwife]

Why that attitude about being Flops? Have you forgotten that for quite some time FLOPS was paid higher than NJA? Sounds like the NJA brainwashing being done on this forum is starting to affect the thinking of some? Too much "Buffet" kool-aid? .... No need for some blowhards to make you feel "less than" when they know d@mn well the tables were turned very recently for quite a while. Cycles, cycles....

I find this post offensive... What brainwashing?! As Fisch said, NJA folks want to see the Options pilots successful. In addition to the camaraderie aspect, it is obviously easier to bargain for a pay raise when your peers are making more than you are. It's only natural that the NJA pilots are asked a lot of questions about their pay, but I don't see them rubbing it in anyone's face. Voice has an unwarranted chip on his shoulder apparently. I'm glad he doesn't speak for the Options pilotgroup because his attitude drives support away when you guys can use it. Just to set the record straight, Voice's posts during the NJA pilots' time at the bargaining table was far less supportive than the NJ posts being made to encourage the Options pilots in their fight for fairness.

Back on topic: Here's my take on Silver's note of caution. I think it was based on his unspoken observation that NJA is in a period of record profits and is growing while FltOps has been shrinking because of the FLOPS' mismanagement. Keep in mind that the more comparable CBA situation was in 2005 and it wasn't until profits rose (showing the new payscale was sustainable) and the pilots had further proved their worth (by demonstrating the effectiveness of proper motivation) that the NJA pilots were able to partner with the Company in IBB to arrive at the present day contract that the Options pilots hope to copy. CS is also a comp that will be used; their pay is similar to the NJ pilots, but their benefits package is not as good, is it?

All of the above notwithstanding, I still think the Options pilots should try for a contract similar to the NJA pilots. The fact that your jobs are essentially the same justifies your goal of obtaining the new industry standard. In the meantime all the Ops pilots can do is keep an open mind and evaluate each TA when it's presented. Other than following the directives of your 1108 leadership, of course. That goes without saying for involved pilots fighting for their career. Best Wishes! NJW

 

[fischman]

As Fisch said, NJA folks want to see the Options pilots successful.

And I meant it too.

 

[Publishers]

I am not sure what industry is left. Netjets won the war of the business and is the industry. Most of the others had some ulterior motive such as Citation and Bombardier pushing aircraft. Flight Options was to be the "used model" providing a much lower cost product. Yes they may all fly corporate jet aircraft but any similarity past that is remote. Netjets created and is the business.

 

[netjetwife]

Hello?! Don't the pilots of Avantair, Citation shares, FlexJet and Flight Options all fly fractional owners, too? I hope the board realizes that Publishers is not a NJ pilot and his remark doesn't reflect the overall thinking of the NJ folks. NJ may be the biggest but those pilots certainly aren't the only fractional pilots out there... Maybe this is the attitude Voice was referring to? If so, it must be noted that it is not coming from a NJ pilot. Nonetheless, interesting comment from a poster who was full of doom and gloom during the NJ pilots' contract dispute...

 

[gunfyter]

I am not sure what industry is left. Netjets won the war of the business and is the industry. Most of the others had some ulterior motive such as Citation and Bombardier pushing aircraft. Flight Options was to be the "used model" providing a much lower cost product. Yes they may all fly corporate jet aircraft but any similarity past that is remote. Netjets created and is the business.

I finally found something I agree with Publishers on.

 

[Publishers]

Obviously I did not expect NJW to get the differences between product offerings. There is more similarities between companies as aircraft sales organizations than as fractional aircraft operators.
The newer models such as XOjet make a specific effort to paint themselves as different than NJ and not a fractional company. What I have been saying all along is that Flight Options needs to figure out who they are first and then worry about how to serve the market. The fact is that there has been a good deal of wealth created over the last number of years and Netjets created a business and is an industry to itself.
I don't think many people who have been on this board as long as I have think I am an NJ anything. The fact is our company flies corporate jets too but that does not mean an NJ type of contract would work for us. Sentient, or any of the other companies flying charter or managing others aircraft are not necessarily in the same industry even though they all have pilots flying the same type aircraft as NJ. Because my GIII has 3 owners, is this a fractional? Are we really going to add Avantair into the mix as anything close to NJ.
Netjets created this industry and for all intent and purpose, they are the only one in it. I liken this to when ILFC created the new aircraft leasing business model and changed commerical airline purchasing for those of you who have that background.
NJ now has the size and industry power to do what it is doing and operating the way it does. Most of the others do not.

 

[netjetwife]

Obviously, you and I will rarely see things the same, Publishers. Your focus is continually on the purely business side of things and mine is on the people involved--primarily the pilots and their families. You love dissecting the business models in minute detail. I'm satisfied with a general knowledge as I discuss the events and how they relate to our fractional families.

Say what you will about me... You called it wrong on the NJA contract when you kept telling NJ folks that the fractional model was not profitable enough and was doomed to failure. Had the pilots listened to you they'd have accept the POSTA offering $69K to a 5yr PIC... I insisted that the money was there but NJA was diverting profits to subsidize NJEurope. My faith in people and common sense was vindicated. So you're quite welcome to your personal viewpoint. I'm fine not seeing things your way.

I'll be standing firm that our fractional pilots (btw, if they see themselves as such that's good enough for me) are all professionals whose skills and demanding lifestyle deserve (by merit) industry standard wages. Being different from NJA doesn't give similar companies an excuse to underpay the pilots. There needs to be an acceptable minimum rate for pilots--regardless of how one classifies the company. Balancing the budget on the back of any pilotgroup is wrong!!
Standing by my posts,
Netjetwife

 

[skanza]

PROPER INFLATION PROCEDURES​

(CONT’D)​

Mounted Tube-Type Tires
A tube-type tire that has been freshly mounted and installed should be closely monitored during the first
week of operation, ideally before every takeoff. Air trapped between the tire and the tube at the time of
mounting will seep out under the beads, through sidewall vents or around the valve stem, resulting in an
underinflated assembly.
Mounted Tubeless Tires
A slight amount of gas diffusion through the liner material and casing of tubeless tires is normal. The
sidewalls are purposely vented in the lower sidewall area to bleed off trapped gases, preventing separation
or blisters. A tire/wheel assembly can lose as much as five percent (5%) of the inflation pressure in a
24-hour period and still be considered normal. If a soap solution is used to check leaks, it is normal for
small amounts of bubbles to be observed coming from the vent holes.
COLD PRESSURE SETTING
The following recommendations apply to cold inflation pressure setting:
1. Minimum service pressure for safe aircraft operation is the cold unloaded inflation pressure specified by
the airframe manufacturer.
2. The loaded service inflation must be specified four percent (4%) higher than the unloaded inflation.
3. A tolerance of minus zero (-0) to plus five percent (+5%) of the minimum pressure is the recommended
operating range.
4. If “in-service” pressure is checked and found to be less than the minimum pressure, the following table
should be consulted. An “in-service” tire is defined as a tire installed on an operating aircraft.
PROCEDURES FOR HOT TIRE INFLATION PRESSURE CHECKS
When it is deemed necessary to make “hot” tire inflation pressure checks between normal 24 hourly
“cold” tire pressure checks, follow these procedures to identify any tire that has lost pressure faster than
its axle mate(s).
Cold Tire Service Pressure Recommended Action
100 to 105 percent of loaded service pressure None - normal cold tire operating range.
95 to less than 100 percent of loaded service pressure Reinflate to specified service pressure.
90 to less than 95 percent of loaded service pressure Inspect tire/wheel assembly for cause of pressure loss.
Reinflate & record in log book.
Remove tire/wheel assembly if pressure loss is greater
than 5% and reoccurs within 24 hours.
80 to less than 90 percent of loaded service pressure Remove tire/wheel assembly from aircraft
(See NOTE below).
Less than 80 percent of loaded service pressure Remove tire/wheel assembly and adjacent tire/wheel
assembly from aircraft (See NOTE below).
0 percent Scrap tire and mate if air loss occurred while rolling
(See NOTE below).​

NOTE:

Any tire removed due to a pressure loss condition should be returned to an authorized repair

facility or retreader, along with a description of the removal reason, to verify that the casing has not
sustained internal degradation and is acceptable for continued service.
Do not approach a tire/wheel assembly that shows signs of physical damage which might
compromise its structural integrity. If such conditions exist refer to operator safety procedures
for damaged tire/wheel assemblies.
THIS PROCEDURE DOES NOT REDUCE OR REPLACE THE NEED AND IMPORTANCE OF​

24-HOURLY “COLD” TIRE PRESSURE CHECKS.
​

What is the purpose of this post? Just curious...
​

 

[Publishers]

Businesses exist to create profits for it's owners, be that individuals or corporate shareholders. Businesses are also long term affairs, not one or two year flashes. There is no question at the time that Netjets was putting money into Europe and having difficulty. A business by its nature has to continue to grow and management thought Europe was a logical expansion. When youi look at this years economics, getting that aspect straightened out is making a huge contribution to the company.
From the very beginning of EJA, I could never figure why they hooked up with the Teamsters except for the RR connection. When you have a business that is an industry to itself, or a company that is significantly large with its own priorities (American Airlines), it made much more sense to have an inhouse union. This holds true with people like FEDEX and UPS as the cargo business is totally different. NJ would still be nowhere if they had not changed bargaining units. Where we differ is the term industry standard, and more to the work rules aspect and scope than pay. All that is another story.

 

[Galaxy]

What is the purpose of this post? Just curious...
[/left]

It's purely educational...

 

[fischman]

I know I learned something.

 

[jetwash]

Thanks for posting it,

It looks like you never stop learning.

 

[gunfyter]

She has a point Publishers.... You were wrong about NJ before 2005.

But I think you are right that the biz plan of NJ is different than what others are trying to do.

I am not sure what FLOPS is trying to do... since they are no longer a manufacturer owned company like FLEX and CS.

 

[AeroBoy]

She has a point
I am not sure what FLOPS is trying to do... since they are no longer a manufacturer owned company like FLEX and CS.

Flight Options management reminds me of The Puppy That Lost His Way.

 

[Publishers]

Gunfyer, I may or may not have been wrong. We really will not know that for a few years, hence my comments about business being a longer term thing. The hard part about NJ is really determining what the profit centers are and how they produce with all the symbiotic relationships like FSI. If I have underetimated anything, it is the amount of individual wealth created in the last 10 years, and, the great marketing job the airlines have done for corporate jet travel. My concern with NJ economics was the need to consistently sell more aircraft positions, and, residual values of what they have. Foreign demand has changed some of that and is keeping the used market up. Just now is there a softening of values and time on market. The value of the dollar gave not only NJ Europe a boast but also the used market. In the end, this is the part that has to go right for NJ not so much operations.
Flops had a plan that really has hit the can. If they buy a bunch of Phenoms from Embraer, they just become another Citation Shares wannabe. Buffett also has the brains and money to buy into the snyergistic ops like FSI.
NJW has that great big organization type thinking. She says that I concentrate on the business side. Well she is right. If you do not solve that part, there is little demand for employees or no longevity for the ones you have. The blunt fact is that EJA failed on every level that one could look at. It used to be an economic disaster area when it was under the railroad. Only the change in model to NJ allowed it to survive. These other moves are keeping it going. As I said, it is a tough playing field and the others survive because they are part of big organizations that have other missions. FLOPS unfortunately is not in that position unless they are an Embraer outlet in teh future.

 

[netjetwife]

....If I have underetimated anything, it is the amount of individual wealth created in the last 10 years, I don't know how you missed that. Plenty of experts kept reporting it. It was one of the common sense reasons the money was there for NJA to be profitable and pay the pilots a professional salary. It was also reported that business/private flying was growing rapidly. and the great marketing job the airlines have done for corporate jet travel. I listened to the frac pilots talk about airline service decreasing. Add to that the fact that security restrictions, inconveniences, etc are apparently here to stay and it's easy to see why those who can afford it prefer private travel. .... Buffett also has the brains and money to buy into the snyergistic ops like FSI. Which is why my husband took a chance on NJA even though he was hired during their contract negotiations. I'm confident the experts like WB, Santulli, and Rosenthal can manage the business side of things while the pilots take care of the customers and the NJ Association helps the pilotgroup. If I have questions about the business side of things I ask my husband his opinion. I simply find it hard to trust an outsider who had no problem seeing the NJ pilots being underpaid. NJW has that great big organization type thinking. Ironic comment. Actually, I am usually thinking of camaraderie and fostering a community spirit. She says that I concentrate on the business side. Well she is right. If you do not solve that part, (With all due respect, it's not your job. That said, I can see that the subject does interest you.) there is little demand for employees or no longevity for the ones you have. I see detailed business discussions as the purvey of upper management. Yes, the pilots need to pay attention enough to know that the company they fly for isn't being mismanaged, but otherwise their primary focus should be customer service. All the business theories aside, it still boils down to people. The pilots giving their pax a fantastic flying experience and management keeping the pilots motivated enough to concentrate on the pax without other distractions (namely low pay and unfair work rules) getting in the way. The blunt fact is that EJA failed on every level that one could look at. It used to be an economic disaster area when it was under the railroad. Only the change in model to NJ allowed it to survive. These other moves are keeping it going. I maintain that focusing on the basics listed above made a huge difference to the bottom line in a business with demand for the product/service. As I said, it is a tough playing field and the others survive because they are part of big organizations that have other missions. FLOPS unfortunately is not in that position unless they are an Embraer outlet in teh future.

It doesn't matter how well set up for success a company is if they do badly in the human behavior arena. Out of control egotistical CEOs/upper managers (Boisture as a past example, MS presently) can ruin a company. Labor strife causes high attrition, low morale, and wrecks havoc on a training budget. Unmotivated and/or lazy workers fail to retain customers and growth can slow or worse--shrink.

Business direction, models etc are intangibles beyond our sphere. In contrast, the pilots and their families are directly impacted in many tangible ways by the relationship between the pilots and management. Motivated pilots have no control over the business model, but they do play a huge role in making the company successful through service excellence. Personally, I think the pilots (and their families) are better served by working together on those things that they can change. Plans for concrete improvements are more beneficial for the fractional industry than theoretical business discussions, IMO, particularly when those discussions fail to criticize low pilot wages. NJW

 

[Publishers]

The one thing we share is that WB, Santulli, etc are fantastic managers who have done an outstanding job. Business flying grew at a 10 to 12% rate in 2006 and 2007 and is expected to go back to a more normal 6 to 7% this year. They capitalized on the market. I am certainly not disputing the success or the necessity of having a great realtionship with your core employees or that they cannot have an impact on success. It is easier to do of course when the company is growing, well financed, market leader, etc.. than when it is shrinking, cutting back, and its plan has gone south.
The thing is without those intangible business models, the job your husband has does not exist. If your union leadership had stayed like it was before 1108, you might still be without a contract. The managment of both is key or there is nothing there at all.

 

[netjetwife]

We can use FltOps as an example of a shrinking company. It was/is a human behavior problem. Ego-driven decisions are typically bad ones. The FLOPS refusal to pay the going rate has had dire consequences. Underpaid/overworked pilots have left and those still there are not motivated--understandably. The way to turn that around is to give the pilots a fair contract. Using the current situation as an excuse will only ensure more of the same failure. I'm disappointed that you aren't as bothered by low pay for pilots as the rest of us are. Why don't you discuss that topic more? It certainly is a much more immediate problem within the pilots ability to influence. The chosen business models are not. The thing is those models are already in place and pilots can consider that when they take the job, as my husband did. The relationship is an ongoing thing and negotiations allow direct pilot input. So it seems that should be the main focus of pilot discussions. Do you currently fly, Publishers, or are you in management? On the subject of good leadership we are in complete agreement. I will add that a strong contract can help to shield pilots when management fails to meet the high standards demanded from the pilotgroup.

 

[Publishers]

The FLOPS problem which is still an open issue us whether or not the fractional model created by NJ works with older higher maintenance aircraft with questionable residual values.
As to pilot pay, I think most pilot I know are paid a reasonable wage for what they do. That said, Netjets is such a different animal than other places, it is hard to even equate it.
I have been the founder, manager, and industry supporter of a number of corporate flight departments, 135, and 121 carriers. I have served on a number of the alphabet soup associations, published an aviation employment magazine, and am semi retired and helping various aviation entities. If you are near Columbus, Ohio State has some tremendous AED programs and the one on Human Resource management may be enlightening for you. While there you can debate the merits of a system that makes a pilot with tons of experience start over from scratch with another carrier because his company failed. In addition, find out why legal considerations have kept one aviation company from saying anything negative about an employee and the next company being stuck with the same bad apple. Your husband was an F16 driver, were they the best of the best or just someone who signed into the Air Force first. You are poniticating with a total background of two experiences.

 

[gunfyter]

Conspiracy theory

I suspect the future of FLOPS might be to copy the Flexjet and CS models of being the Aircraft manufacturer's fractional outlet for their business jets ... making a move to the Embraer products....

But the new planes won't hit the streets for some time....

So they would have to mark time while waiting. Did I recently read they have sold no shares this year? Why would they if they plan on a product shift?

Actually I think its a good plan.

 

[Publishers]

That is about the only plan they can pursue right now even without a current product (Embraer). The fractional concept utilizes aircraft so highly, the pressure is on maintenance and older aircraft just have a hard time with it. Secondly you need to keep your number of models down, especially when you start. Third, it is necessary to have a cozy relationship with a manufacturer like NJ did with Cessna for parts and service support. Lastly, the Embraer product is on the smaller end at the moment and has more potential for customers than say BBJ's. In short, they need to start over with a new plan, convince the pilots they have one and it can work, and lastly implement it in a way they can have a niche.

 

[ProFracPilot]

In short, they need to start over with a new plan, convince the pilots they have one and it can work, and lastly implement it in a way they can have a niche.

You've hit the nail on the head, Publishers.

The complete void of leadership and vision has been dumbfounding under Nahill and Sheeringa. There has been no corporate vision in upper management since Ricci left. Say what you will about his business management skills, the man's entrepenurial spirit provided vision for the fledgling Flight Options organization. The original model was built on a sale of shares platform with no real thought given to attaining or maintaining operational profitability under high maintenance costs of "previously enjoyed" aircraft. Perhaps the thought in the early years was that they would enjoy a longer time frame before being forced to achieve operational profitability - then 9/11 and the down markets of 2002 intervened. The "previously enjoyed" aircraft model certainly put Flight Options at a disadvantage when it came to controlling operational costs. But the truth is all the fractionals have scrambled to attain operational profitability.

I'm hopeful that Ricci's purpose in returning is to provide a new vision to Flight Options, one that is guided by H.I.G.'s business acumen. If this is the plan, and they sell it (along with delivering a fair contract) to the pilot group, they'll get the support they need.