Ricci/Rossi coming back to FLOPS?!

[dime line]

We are not going to get everything that NJ pilots got in our first contract. I hope we are very close in pay, benefits, and work rules but some of the extra benies you guys get we may not. just the facts of life at Floptions.

Ill be voting no then.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Just sayin'...

Ill be voting no then.

...and hopefully that will mean it will be modified...I've seen too many times in aviation where no one's input (as a group) is taken...then suddenly this TA goes out for vote...Then GUESS WHAT...it comes with the fear disclaimer "Oh, By the way it's either "yes" or the entire contract has to be thrown out and start all over from the beginning." Hope our guys wouldn't do that, but as I said, seen it time and time again, coupled with the inane all or nothing fear tactic with everything being blamed on "that's how the RLA works," or some other inane reason. That's why (as I have said in the past) it is so important to properly gather the wishes of the majority AS YOU GO, so you don't end up with something that p*sses a lot of people off and is forced upon them. I KNOW our guys aren't out there purposely working against us, but I haven't seen a whole lot of surveying going on (and I don't mean on msg boards or questioning people on the road. REAL surveying.
That said, our guys have worked hard and I don't expect that they'd do us wrong, especially since those of us who have stayed have been drug through the ringer and are on the edge as it is.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

We are not going to get everything that NJ pilots got in our first contract. I hope we are very close in pay, benefits, and work rules but some of the extra benies you guys get we may not. just the facts of life at Floptions.

Why that attitude about being Flops? Have you forgotten that for quite some time FLOPS was paid higher than NJA? Sounds like the NJA brainwashing being done on this forum is starting to affect the thinking of some? Too much "Buffet" kool-aid? FLOPS keeps all of its other costs lower, so they should have no problem bring us back to being paid higher than NJAs, and get back to being competitive with a HAPPY pilot group that will reflect positively on the "new" company. No need for some blowhards to make you feel "less than" when they know d@mn well the tables were turned very recently for quite a while.
Cycles, cycles....

 

[FR8DOG777]

You're Joking Right?

We are not going to get everything that NJ pilots got in our first contract. I hope we are very close in pay, benefits, and work rules but some of the extra benies you guys get we may not. just the facts of life at Floptions.

It is that kind of thinking that management is trying to perpetuate by dragging these negotiations out. Not only have they made our lives miserable for over two years they have had time to save up. They could have settled for less at an earlier stage in the game with the NJA 05 cba and they blew it. I have faith our 1108 leadership will not settle for anything less. If I am still here I will be voting no along with dime. Pay up suckers or close the doors.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Better check you're tire pressures too below 90% is bad

PROPER INFLATION PROCEDURES​

​

​

(CONT’D)​

Mounted Tube-Type Tires​

A tube-type tire that has been freshly mounted and installed should be closely monitored during the first
week of operation, ideally before every takeoff. Air trapped between the tire and the tube at the time of
mounting will seep out under the beads, through sidewall vents or around the valve stem, resulting in an
underinflated assembly.​

Mounted Tubeless Tires​

A slight amount of gas diffusion through the liner material and casing of tubeless tires is normal. The
sidewalls are purposely vented in the lower sidewall area to bleed off trapped gases, preventing separation
or blisters.​

​

​

A tire/wheel assembly can lose as much as five percent (5%) of the inflation pressure in a
24-hour period and still be considered normal. If a soap solution is used to check leaks, it is normal for
small amounts of bubbles to be observed coming from the vent holes.​

COLD PRESSURE SETTING​

The following recommendations apply to cold inflation pressure setting:
1. Minimum service pressure for safe aircraft operation is the cold unloaded inflation pressure specified by
the airframe manufacturer.
2. The loaded service inflation must be specified four percent (4%) higher than the unloaded inflation.
3. A tolerance of minus zero (-0) to plus five percent (+5%) of the minimum pressure is the recommended
operating range.
4. If “in-service” pressure is checked and found to be less than the minimum pressure, the following table
should be consulted. An “in-service” tire is defined as a tire installed on an operating aircraft.​

PROCEDURES FOR HOT TIRE INFLATION PRESSURE CHECKS​

When it is deemed necessary to make “hot” tire inflation pressure checks between normal 24 hourly
“cold” tire pressure checks, follow these procedures to identify any tire that has lost pressure faster than
its axle mate(s).​

Cold Tire Service Pressure Recommended Action​

100 to 105 percent of loaded service pressure None - normal cold tire operating range.
95 to less than 100 percent of loaded service pressure Reinflate to specified service pressure.
90 to less than 95 percent of loaded service pressure Inspect tire/wheel assembly for cause of pressure loss.
Reinflate & record in log book.
Remove tire/wheel assembly if pressure loss is greater
than 5% and reoccurs within 24 hours.
80 to less than 90 percent of loaded service pressure Remove tire/wheel assembly from aircraft
(See​

​

​

NOTE below).
Less than 80 percent of loaded service pressure Remove tire/wheel assembly and adjacent tire/wheel
assembly from aircraft (See NOTE below).
0 percent Scrap tire and mate if air loss occurred while rolling
(See NOTE below).​

NOTE:​

​

​

​

Any tire removed due to a pressure loss condition should be returned to an authorized repair
facility or retreader, along with a description of the removal reason, to verify that the casing has not
sustained internal degradation and is acceptable for continued service.
Do not approach a tire/wheel assembly that shows signs of physical damage which might
compromise its structural integrity. If such conditions exist refer to operator safety procedures
for damaged tire/wheel assemblies.
THIS PROCEDURE DOES NOT REDUCE OR REPLACE THE NEED AND IMPORTANCE OF​

24-HOURLY “COLD” TIRE PRESSURE CHECKS.

 

[shanes123]

I agree..If this contract Doesnt Dwarf NJ..I will vote NO..Pay up or Close the doors..Its the Cost of doing business..If you cant afford it..Your out of business
Seems simple to me

 

[Publishers]

Now that is the voice of reason.

 

[fischman]

I agree..If this contract Doesnt Dwarf NJ..I will vote NO..Pay up or Close the doors..Its the Cost of doing business..If you cant afford it..Your out of business
Seems simple to me

As an NJA guy, I have to tell you...


I hope it does. Good luck guys. :beer:

 

[netjetwife]

Why that attitude about being Flops? Have you forgotten that for quite some time FLOPS was paid higher than NJA? Sounds like the NJA brainwashing being done on this forum is starting to affect the thinking of some? Too much "Buffet" kool-aid? .... No need for some blowhards to make you feel "less than" when they know d@mn well the tables were turned very recently for quite a while. Cycles, cycles....

I find this post offensive... What brainwashing?! As Fisch said, NJA folks want to see the Options pilots successful. In addition to the camaraderie aspect, it is obviously easier to bargain for a pay raise when your peers are making more than you are. It's only natural that the NJA pilots are asked a lot of questions about their pay, but I don't see them rubbing it in anyone's face. Voice has an unwarranted chip on his shoulder apparently. I'm glad he doesn't speak for the Options pilotgroup because his attitude drives support away when you guys can use it. Just to set the record straight, Voice's posts during the NJA pilots' time at the bargaining table was far less supportive than the NJ posts being made to encourage the Options pilots in their fight for fairness.

Back on topic: Here's my take on Silver's note of caution. I think it was based on his unspoken observation that NJA is in a period of record profits and is growing while FltOps has been shrinking because of the FLOPS' mismanagement. Keep in mind that the more comparable CBA situation was in 2005 and it wasn't until profits rose (showing the new payscale was sustainable) and the pilots had further proved their worth (by demonstrating the effectiveness of proper motivation) that the NJA pilots were able to partner with the Company in IBB to arrive at the present day contract that the Options pilots hope to copy. CS is also a comp that will be used; their pay is similar to the NJ pilots, but their benefits package is not as good, is it?

All of the above notwithstanding, I still think the Options pilots should try for a contract similar to the NJA pilots. The fact that your jobs are essentially the same justifies your goal of obtaining the new industry standard. In the meantime all the Ops pilots can do is keep an open mind and evaluate each TA when it's presented. Other than following the directives of your 1108 leadership, of course. That goes without saying for involved pilots fighting for their career. Best Wishes! NJW

 

[fischman]

As Fisch said, NJA folks want to see the Options pilots successful.

And I meant it too.

 

[Publishers]

I am not sure what industry is left. Netjets won the war of the business and is the industry. Most of the others had some ulterior motive such as Citation and Bombardier pushing aircraft. Flight Options was to be the "used model" providing a much lower cost product. Yes they may all fly corporate jet aircraft but any similarity past that is remote. Netjets created and is the business.

 

[netjetwife]

Hello?! Don't the pilots of Avantair, Citation shares, FlexJet and Flight Options all fly fractional owners, too? I hope the board realizes that Publishers is not a NJ pilot and his remark doesn't reflect the overall thinking of the NJ folks. NJ may be the biggest but those pilots certainly aren't the only fractional pilots out there... Maybe this is the attitude Voice was referring to? If so, it must be noted that it is not coming from a NJ pilot. Nonetheless, interesting comment from a poster who was full of doom and gloom during the NJ pilots' contract dispute...

 

[gunfyter]

I am not sure what industry is left. Netjets won the war of the business and is the industry. Most of the others had some ulterior motive such as Citation and Bombardier pushing aircraft. Flight Options was to be the "used model" providing a much lower cost product. Yes they may all fly corporate jet aircraft but any similarity past that is remote. Netjets created and is the business.

I finally found something I agree with Publishers on.

 

[Publishers]

Obviously I did not expect NJW to get the differences between product offerings. There is more similarities between companies as aircraft sales organizations than as fractional aircraft operators.
The newer models such as XOjet make a specific effort to paint themselves as different than NJ and not a fractional company. What I have been saying all along is that Flight Options needs to figure out who they are first and then worry about how to serve the market. The fact is that there has been a good deal of wealth created over the last number of years and Netjets created a business and is an industry to itself.
I don't think many people who have been on this board as long as I have think I am an NJ anything. The fact is our company flies corporate jets too but that does not mean an NJ type of contract would work for us. Sentient, or any of the other companies flying charter or managing others aircraft are not necessarily in the same industry even though they all have pilots flying the same type aircraft as NJ. Because my GIII has 3 owners, is this a fractional? Are we really going to add Avantair into the mix as anything close to NJ.
Netjets created this industry and for all intent and purpose, they are the only one in it. I liken this to when ILFC created the new aircraft leasing business model and changed commerical airline purchasing for those of you who have that background.
NJ now has the size and industry power to do what it is doing and operating the way it does. Most of the others do not.

 

[netjetwife]

Obviously, you and I will rarely see things the same, Publishers. Your focus is continually on the purely business side of things and mine is on the people involved--primarily the pilots and their families. You love dissecting the business models in minute detail. I'm satisfied with a general knowledge as I discuss the events and how they relate to our fractional families.

Say what you will about me... You called it wrong on the NJA contract when you kept telling NJ folks that the fractional model was not profitable enough and was doomed to failure. Had the pilots listened to you they'd have accept the POSTA offering $69K to a 5yr PIC... I insisted that the money was there but NJA was diverting profits to subsidize NJEurope. My faith in people and common sense was vindicated. So you're quite welcome to your personal viewpoint. I'm fine not seeing things your way.

I'll be standing firm that our fractional pilots (btw, if they see themselves as such that's good enough for me) are all professionals whose skills and demanding lifestyle deserve (by merit) industry standard wages. Being different from NJA doesn't give similar companies an excuse to underpay the pilots. There needs to be an acceptable minimum rate for pilots--regardless of how one classifies the company. Balancing the budget on the back of any pilotgroup is wrong!!
Standing by my posts,
Netjetwife