Reverse Thrust vs. Contaminated Runways

[Spooky 1]

The NTSB, today has urged the FAA to eliminate any credit for thrust reverse when computing landing distances on contaminated runways. This is a direct result of the SWA accident at Midway. More to follow. Read the NTSB action letter at; http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2006/A06_16.pdf

 

[Fly-diver]

Your link is missing an underscore ( _ ) between A06 and 16. Try this one.

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2006/A06_16.pdf

 

[Spooky 1]

Thank you!

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

In this accident, the thrust reversers were supposed to be deployed upon touchdown (they were deployed 18 seconds after landing with 1000 feet remaining). Additionally, I wonder what the winds were? I heard there was a 13 knot tailwind on final that night... Don't know if there's any truth to that... Case in point, I'm still using reversers on a contaminated runway...

 

[oldxfr8dog]

In this accident, the thrust reversers were supposed to be deployed upon touchdown (they were deployed 18 seconds after landing with 1000 feet remaining). Additionally, I wonder what the winds were? I heard there was a 13 knot tailwind on final that night... Don't know if there's any truth to that... Case in point, I'm still using reversers on a contaminated runway...

Pardon me if I misunderstood you:
I believe the NTSB isn't saying you shouldn't use them, they're saying you shouldn't use them in computing performance.

 

[Spooky 1]

In this accident, the thrust reversers were supposed to be deployed upon touchdown (they were deployed 18 seconds after landing with 1000 feet remaining). Additionally, I wonder what the winds were? I heard there was a 13 knot tailwind on final that night... Don't know if there's any truth to that... Case in point, I'm still using reversers on a contaminated runway...

No one is suggesting that the reversers not be used. Just that they not be factored into the landing distance required on a contaminated runway. Any other references to what might have caused the SWA is pure speculation at best and should not be considered until after the NTSB report is out and all the facts are known.

 

[1BigRodeo]

In this accident, the thrust reversers were supposed to be deployed upon touchdown (they were deployed 18 seconds after landing with 1000 feet remaining). Additionally, I wonder what the winds were? I heard there was a 13 knot tailwind on final that night... Don't know if there's any truth to that... Case in point, I'm still using reversers on a contaminated runway...

This is only refering to the use of reverse in CALCULATING landing performance. I would also be inclined to have a hard look at takeoff performance as well sans-reverse if its tight.

We all "heard" something about that night. I landed there a little while before the crash, and I "heard" alot of things that didnt happen that night passed as fact. The best we can all do is to watch the NTSB website for factual information and give our very best to the people sitting behind us who hope we dont repeat a night like that....regardless of the color of your jet.

 

[SWA/FO]

http://www.wvgazette.com/section/APNews/News/ap0785n

Thrust reversers typically deploy automatically -- six seconds or less after a plane's wheels touch the runway, said Paul Czysz, professor emeritus of aerospace engineering at Saint Louis University.

In this case, a computer used to calculate landing specifications "assumed they would go on immediately,'' he said.

Investigators haven't determined whether the pilots tried to deploy the thrust reversers manually, NTSB spokesman Keith Holloway said.

I'm sure glad they are talking to people that know what they are talking about. I had no idea they came out "automatically"...learning something new everyday.

 

[flatspin7]

Maybe the 737 is different but both "transport" category airplanes I have flown already calculate landing distance with out the use of reverse.

It is normally ground spoilers and max breaking.

 

[furloughed dude]

It appears that these guys decided to use autobrakes and they weren't allowed to use them at that time and they also took their time deploying the thrust reversers. I think it might get my attention if I was landing on a slick, short runway, especially if I had a whole 30 foot pad. What is it with these Southwest guys and not being able to keep their aircraft on the airport property?

 

[SWA/FO]

The investigation is on going...

 

[Chest Rockwell]

It appears that these guys decided to use autobrakes and they weren't allowed to use them at that time and they also took their time deploying the thrust reversers. I think it might get my attention if I was landing on a slick, short runway, especially if I had a whole 30 foot pad. What is it with these Southwest guys and not being able to ke
ep their aircraft on the airport property?

Dude,

"It appears" that you should not pass judgement on theses guys until you have all of the facts.

 

[73-Driver]

What is it with these Southwest guys and not being able to keep their aircraft on the airport property?

737 type rating........$5000

SWA interview prep.......$200

Not getting the job after interviewing with SWA and resorting to weak, coward-like attacks on F.I. to make one's self feel better.........PRICELESS!

 

[psysicx]

Are the pilots involved flying again? And this is an honest question not a crack at SWA.

 

[DX Rick]

In my dispatch class, we were told that all landing calculations were made without the use of the TR's to begin with. Is this true?

 

[Lampshade]

"FAA allows the reverse thrust credit to be used in calculating en route operational landing distances for some transport-category airplanes, such as the accident airplane, a 737-700. Accordingly, when using the reverse thrust credit for contaminated runways, the required runway length for 737-700 model airplanes is about 1,000 feet less than the required runway length without the reverse thrust credit. The OPCs of Southwest Airlines'™ 737-300 and -500 model airplanes do not use the reverse thrust credit; therefore, these model airplanes have a greater landing safety margin. In this accident, when the thrust reversers were not (or could not be) used in a timely manner, the airplane could not be stopped on the runway because of the absence of this extra safety margin."

 

[stonewall]

Are the pilots involved flying again? And this is an honest question not a crack at SWA.

1,553 questions.....

 

[michael707767]

Maybe the 737 is different but both "transport" category airplanes I have flown already calculate landing distance with out the use of reverse.

It is normally ground spoilers and max breaking.

at my airline, its funny. Landing distance on a dry runway is calculated using just brakes and spoilers, but if you go in the charts for a contaminated runway, they use brakes, spoilers and reversers.

The NTSB is right, reverse thrust should never be used as a part of the calculations for any landing distance. If they are available and you can use them thats just icing on the cake.

 

[lowecur]

Does this mean that everytime MDW has snow on the runway they will be sending the 737NG to another airport? Talk about a tough break. I'm sure that will go over big with the flying public.

imp:

 

[SkiFishFly]

Does this mean that everytime MDW has snow on the runway they will be sending the 737NG to another airport? Talk about a tough break. I'm sure that will go over big with the flying public.

imp:

I don't think that is necessarily the case.

I thought landing distance calculations already excluded reverse thrust. I'm going to have to check.

Can't believe the quote about automatic reverser operation. Where do they find such idiots to quote in the media?

 

[maru657]

If Ditka had been flying that airplane and the tailwinds had been over 100kts could he have made the first intersection turnoff?

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Is that regular Ditka, or mini-Ditka?

 

[CF34-3B1]

Does this mean that everytime MDW has snow on the runway they will be sending the 737NG to another airport? Talk about a tough break. I'm sure that will go over big with the flying public.

imp:

Almost as big as when they have to return to the gate because the E190 they're riding on needs to have its hard drive re-booted.

 

[lowecur]

Almost as big as when they have to return to the gate because the E190 they're riding on needs to have its hard drive re-booted.

That's not funny. I am requesting the moderator have you removed for obscene language. You will be sent to a gulag to serve your time, where you will be subject to repeated shots of blue kool-aid until you repent.

imp: