Return of the SIC-logging question, with a twist.

[Snakum]

OK ... I've read the threads here and elsewhere, where-in the logging of SIC time in a C90/200 has been beaten to death. I pretty much understand that unless your Ops Spec (135) specifically requires an SIC for an aircraft that is otherwise certified SP, you simply cannot log the time. I also have read that even if your employer's Ops Spec requires a C90/200 SIC that Express Jet will tell you to "pound sand" in the interview anyway. So here's where I'm concerned:

I've talked to a few guys over the years in various 135 and 91 operations who got their first or second flying gig sitting right seat in a C90 or B200, who eventually moved to the left-hand seat or moved on to turbojet position, and obviously they were logging their FO time, including the Part 91 pilots, and this time was accepted by their next employer as legit. However, going by what I've read here in the last four years ... it's a iffy proposition.

So, considering that I still hold out hopes of eventually getting into the right-hand seat of something burning kerosene (lotsa NASCAR teams flying locally ), and I'd like to progress to the left-hand seat ... in your own experience have you seen right-hand C90/B200 seat time counting toward career progression or have you seen it primarily been wasted time as far as job progression goes (I know NO learning time is really wasted)? What has been your personal experience, or the experience of friends out in the real 91/135 world?

Minh

(At 40 years old, I don't want to quit my real job for the right-hand seat of a C90 with Billy Bob's Flying Service if I'd have been better off flying patterns alone in a C152 ... )

 

[Timebuilder]

Let's say your question applies directly to an employer who has ops specs for the SIC in the airplane. In this case, the time is loggable for your experience (as well as being legally loggable anyway) that eventually lets you take the ride for the left seat job with the same employer. That time in the left seat will be the really important time for the career progression, and will give justification for the time you logged in the right seat as being more than a radio and gear operator.

Your mention of NASCAR reminds me of one of my visits to GSO in a 55, where I waved through my windshield to Richard Petty as he left one of his planes, and got a real friendly, southern-style wave and a smile. We (the captain and I) took the FBO van over to the next town and got some BBQ. I don't recall the name of the restaurant, but it was near a local college. Beautiful countryside.

 

[Snakum]

Yeah, one of the neat things about this area, if you're a NASCAR fan, is getting to see all the 'name' drivers. My ex was friends/coworkers with the Petty's Westwind Captain's wife and I've seen Kyle and Richard both at GSO when they were running the J31s. At EXX I've seen all the Childress drivers, and where I'm at now two of the Wallace brothers fly out. Usually VERY nice folks, especially Mr. Petty, who is a class act. Now that I'm flying again I'm kinda hoping to land in a NASCAR King Air or EMB120 eventually. Among the FOs there's usually a bit of movement, and depending on who you know there often low-timers given a chance at the right-hand seat (Childress hired a 700-hour guy into the B200). That's why I'm trying to work a local flight line ... networking .

About the time thingee ... from talking to local folks I get the impression there's a few Part 91 and Part 135 departments for which there is no Ops Spec requirement for an FO, yet owners/passengers/insurers have requested one and these FOs are moving up the food chain (including Midway when they were at RDU), even though everything I've read would indicate the right seat 90/200 time isn't legit. Just thought I'd get some more feedback.

Thanks TB.

Minh

 

[350DRIVER]

I also have read that even if your employer's Ops Spec requires a C90/200 SIC that Express Jet will tell you to "pound sand" in the interview anyway. So here's where I'm concerned:

I tend to think that most of these guys that are being told to "pound sand" are logging the time as SIC when in fact the ops specs do not require or permit this practice to occur. I am sure that some of the EJ pilots on this board can better answer this question but I would be highly surprised if this is the case.. I would assume (logical reasoning) that if you interviewed with Express Jet and bring to the interview a copy of your company SIC flight check form, and you were able to justify "why" you were logging SIC time per the ops specs then you shouldn't have any problems or concerns, just my take on the issue though. I have been wrong before so take the above for what it is worth....

Airnet pilots have been logging SIC time in Barons, etc, for awhile and I don't think this is questioned by EJ. If you showed up to the interview with "proof" that the SIC time is valid and you are "required" per your company's ops specs then are you going to be excused from being told to pound sand?

I would be interested in hearing what is actually questioned and allowed in the mind of the folks at EJ.

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[EatSleepFly]

Why is it that SIC time is seen as nothing more than operating gear and flaps? I am SIC in a B100 (under 135), and we split the PF/PNF duties pretty much dead even. Heck, I can hardly even *reach* the gear handle from the right seat.

Seriously though, I can see why some SIC time is crap, but not all of it. It kind of chaps my ass when people say that being a legitimate SIC in an aircraft that is technically single pilot is bogus. Besides, a lot of customers seem to prefer having two pilots.

Oh, and before you flame me, they paid for my training, they pay me, and its a pretty safe bet I'll be in the left seat when I have enough time in type to satisfy the insurance company.

 

[johnpeace]

Can someone refer me to material about 'ops specs' and how these are determined?

I only know what I read here and it sounds sort of arbitrary to me that some companies can have required crew in the same plane that other companies can't.

How does that all work?

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

To put it simply, Op Specs are extra rules that overrule the FARs (or can). An operator of aircraft can apply for specialized rules concerning it's pilots and equipment.

For example, airliners don't do 100 hour or annual inspections, they have A, B, C, or D checks. These checks are less frequent than a 100 hour but can cover more than a 100 hour covers. Or a charter operator could be able to shoot an ILS down to 150 ft AGL in a Cessna 172 BUT is required to have both a PIC and a SIC (SIC is Second In Command). Or an operator could get a waiver to fly an aircraft with a fuel guage out of order (or the hobbs meter broken) but then there will be additional requirements.

[for those of you who know more, I am only giving an example of what it is like, I have no clue if you could actually get the examples above approved]

 

[vetteracer]

Ok, how abouth this,

King air 200, 135 certificate requires an SIC.

But all the pilots are Capt. qualified.

We always fly two capts. And switch seats on every other leg.

One pilot is deamed the capt for the shift, and check weather and files flt plans.

And say you are a current MEI or check airman.


Mark

 

[350DRIVER]

Ok, how abouth this,

King air 200, 135 certificate requires an SIC.

But all the pilots are Capt. qualified.

We always fly two capts. And switch seats on every other leg.

One pilot is deamed the capt for the shift, and check weather and files flt plans.

And say you are a current MEI or check airman.


Mark

I would only assume that since your company ops specs requires a SIC to be onboard then you are legally allowed to log the time as such if you are part 135 SIC "qualified" per the FAR's/company ops specs. I don't think you would get into trouble by doing this since it is required per your ops specs. The time that you are the "acting" PIC then log that portion of the flight as PIC time.

good debate on this topic... I really would like to hear feedback from EJ guys relating to this issue...


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[avbug]

Part 135 always requires a second in command under IFR. If an aircraft is operated under IFR under Part 135, a company is always authorized to use a SIC...even when the company holds OpSpec authorization to fly single pilot IFR with autopilot, in lieu of a SIC. The fact that the company is authorized to fly with a single pilot in lieu of a SIC does not at any time preclude the company from operating with a SIC instead...it's a requirement under Part 135 and requires no special OpSpec authorization.

Don't get too wrapped up over weather the Opspec requires a SIC, because you're barking up the wrong tree. If the airplane is operated under IFR, the SIC is required, period. All that may be gained from an Opspec authorization is to allow the PIC to fly with the autopilot in lieu of a SIC. The PIC may at any time fly with a SIC instead, without any specific permission required.

The only requirement is that the SIC be trained and qualified as a SIC under Part 135. A pilot trained and qualified as PIC is not necessarily automatically qualified to act as SIC. Specific training and authorization is required for that pilot.

Accordingly, type certification of the aircraft notwithstanding, a SIC acting as SIC under Part 135 may log the flight experience as SIC. That same pilot may log PIC when acting as sole manipulator of the controls but is ill advised to do so in this situation. Additionally, any time so logged will not count toward removing the 100 hour PIC restriction for a high minimums captain.

Ok, how abouth this,

King air 200, 135 certificate requires an SIC.

But all the pilots are Capt. qualified.

We always fly two capts. And switch seats on every other leg.

One pilot is deamed the capt for the shift, and check weather and files flt plans.

And say you are a current MEI or check airman.

Under Part 135, the certificate holder (your employer) designates the PIC. The designated PIC remains the PIC for the entire flight. None of this "co-captain" garbage that's so popular in the corporate and fractional world. There is one PIC, and the PIC remains the PIC. Switching out legs by trading seats, or trading flying duties, doesn't change the fact that one pilot is designated by the certificate holder as PIC, and that pilot remains PIC.

That the pilots are "captain qualified" means nothing. Further, a pilot who is "captain qualified" is not necessarily qualified as a second-in-command under Part 135. Specific training and company qualification is required.

While technically pilots may log flight time in accordance with 14 CFR 61.51, one should only log PIC under Part 135 when one is the designated PIC by the company.

Being a current MEI or check airman means nothing in this scenario.