Retired DAL pilots and current DAL pilots

[rjcap]

Idiot.

The retired pilots deserve every cent and every benefit that they worked for. If the current pilot group chooses to work under the current conditions so be it but the retired guys di their time and fought their fight, what they have should NEVER be touched.

I feel this way about the folks at Delphi and just about every other company. You worked for it, you earned it, sell the furniture if you have to but don't change the rules after a guy has already left the table.

Ditto !!

 

[DAL737FO]

If you guys haven't been keeping up with current events the furniture has been sold, along with everything else that would buy Delta time/operating money. Do you think the rest of us like the idea that the retirement is going to go the way of the dinosaur? This doesn't just effect the retired guys. Maybe you should check and see how many of those retired guys went early. Atleast they had that option. Those of us left are trying to right this ship. Do they deserve what they earned absolutely, but maybe they could put in a claim with the company through the court and not try and interfere with the current pilot groups negotiations. You see it pretty much is a no lose situation for them. They have their lump sum payment so that can't be touched. So if Delta gets shut down because they some how block the LOA then they are still out of their annuity, if this LOA passing and Delta terminates the pension fund then they are in the same place. So I guess they figure that they should take their shot. It's just their way could put a lot more people out of work.

 

[G4G5]

If you guys haven't been keeping up with current events the furniture has been sold, along with everything else that would buy Delta time/operating money. Do you think the rest of us like the idea that the retirement is going to go the way of the dinosaur? This doesn't just effect the retired guys. Maybe you should check and see how many of those retired guys went early. Atleast they had that option. Those of us left are trying to right this ship. Do they deserve what they earned absolutely, but maybe they could put in a claim with the company through the court and not try and interfere with the current pilot groups negotiations. You see it pretty much is a no lose situation for them. They have their lump sum payment so that can't be touched. So if Delta gets shut down because they some how block the LOA then they are still out of their annuity, if this LOA passing and Delta terminates the pension fund then they are in the same place. So I guess they figure that they should take their shot. It's just their way could put a lot more people out of work.

The furniture hasn't been sold yet. If it has, what are you planning on using as collateral for exit financing? Their is always something. Even the PBGC was able to get stock options from UAL.

Their is no way for them to put in a claim, the banks have already taken priority status. Current BK laws dictate that their is NOTHING left for the employees to have, that is why the retired folks have chosen their current course.

You don't change the rules. If the current employees feel that more is need to be given let them give it. You have the option of saying No and walking out the door or holding strong and demanding a better piece of the recovery.

They don't have any options and they shouldn't need one. They worked hard for Delta, fought their fights and lived by the letter of their contracts. The thought of taking away from fellow pilots after they are already retired is one of the lowest things I have seen done.

This industry just keeps getting more pathetic. If you think it's Ok, just ask yourself how you would fell or what you would do if you were 70 and this happened.

 

[GCAP]

If you guys haven't been keeping up with current events the furniture has been sold, along with everything else that would buy Delta time/operating money. Do you think the rest of us like the idea that the retirement is going to go the way of the dinosaur? This doesn't just effect the retired guys. Maybe you should check and see how many of those retired guys went early. Atleast they had that option. Those of us left are trying to right this ship. Do they deserve what they earned absolutely, but maybe they could put in a claim with the company through the court and not try and interfere with the current pilot groups negotiations. You see it pretty much is a no lose situation for them. They have their lump sum payment so that can't be touched. So if Delta gets shut down because they some how block the LOA then they are still out of their annuity, if this LOA passing and Delta terminates the pension fund then they are in the same place. So I guess they figure that they should take their shot. It's just their way could put a lot more people out of work.

Another YES vote!! How does that cool-aid taste??
Sorry for the wise-ass comments.
When POS 96 was sold to us, it was based on the gloom and doom of "the day" Shortly after ratification DAL made record profits. It WILL happen again. The Co. did not need further concessions. They are simply playing the game.

 

[BoilerUP]

I feel this way about the folks at Delphi and just about every other company. You worked for it, you earned it, sell the furniture if you have to but don't change the rules after a guy has already left the table.

G4G4, how do you feel regarding the Age 60 rule?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Let's look at how many groups feel they have a right to the DAL pilots negotiations.

3. RJDC (as described in their latest letter)

Have I missed any?

The Delta pilots gave ALPA marching orders that went contrary to the Union's Constitution and the union's duty of representation to members at ASA and Comair. The RJDC is just trying to get the Delta MEC's hands off their control of ASA and Comair bargaining. The RJDC has documentation to show that the reason why ASA and Comairs' pilots do not have scope, or merger and fragmentation protection is because of the involvement of the Delta MEC. The RJDC was, and is, a defensive move.

Just because we came out with a Fire Hose after your MEC tried to burn our village doesn't mean we wish to be involved in your negotiations. We don't like being pillaged, but we really don't care what you negotiate as long as it doesn't effect our seniority, pay and working conditions.

So don't lump us in with your enemies. After all, if we had got what we wanted you would be in the left seat of something with a few thousand guys below you.

 

[DAL737FO]

The furniture hasn't been sold yet. If it has, what are you planning on using as collateral for exit financing? Their is always something. Even the PBGC was able to get stock options from UAL.

Actually I don't think we own any airplanes any more. They have all been used as collateral.

Their is no way for them to put in a claim, the banks have already taken priority status. Current BK laws dictate that their is NOTHING left for the employees to have, that is why the retired folks have chosen their current course.

You don't change the rules.

I would agree with you but the rules were changed many times while I and over a thousand other junior guys were on furlough. We had certain rights and expectations that were put in place while we were on property then were negotiated away to "protect the profession" which was a catch phrase for keeping up the payscales and the retirement. Neither of which we now have but those that retired benefitted from.

If the current employees feel that more is need to be given let them give it. You have the option of saying No and walking out the door or holding strong and demanding a better piece of the recovery.

They don't have any options and they shouldn't need one. They worked hard for Delta, fought their fights and lived by the letter of their contracts.

OK. Let's just be clear about this point. The Delta pilots are not terminating the pension plan. Management is. We have just tried to put something in place to even have a portion of the retirement that the people that went before us had.

The thought of taking away from fellow pilots after they are already retired is one of the lowest things I have seen done.

I agree again go talk to management.

This industry just keeps getting more pathetic. If you think it's Ok, just ask yourself how you would fell or what you would do if you were 70 and this happened.

When I was hired to Delta I told my wife to expect no more than a 20 year career and to not expect anything from Delta for retirement. History was not on our side. (Eastern, Braniff, Pan Am, TWA) I live my life accordingly. Just out of curiousity G4G5 what is your dog in this hunt? You seem to be the hottest over this issue. It could just be the forum as you can never really tell how a person is talking via print. Me personally, I've never made money in this industry. I'm starting my 7th year at Delta this summer and the most I've made in a year is 74K. That's not a typo. I spent almost three years on furlough and hope every day that I find something else I enjoy doing as much as wiggling the sticks.

 

[G4G5]

When I was hired to Delta I told my wife to expect no more than a 20 year career and to not expect anything from Delta for retirement. History was not on our side. (Eastern, Braniff, Pan Am, TWA) I live my life accordingly. Just out of curiousity G4G5 what is your dog in this hunt? You seem to be the hottest over this issue. It could just be the forum as you can never really tell how a person is talking via print. Me personally, I've never made money in this industry. I'm starting my 7th year at Delta this summer and the most I've made in a year is 74K. That's not a typo. I spent almost three years on furlough and hope every day that I find something else I enjoy doing as much as wiggling the sticks.

My father was a 25+ year Pan Am pilot who got screwed out of his retirement. Then he went onto to DAL for 10+ years. 5 of which were sideways, not because he wanted to but becuase he needed to, in order to get his retirement bennies.

The thought of seeing him or anyone screwed out of their retirement gets under my skin. It's not personal but I watched this slow death by paper cuts happen to him at Pan Am and some college buddies at TWA. It's ugly and to think that everyone can be a Continental just isn't true. Eventually as a group, we need to stop lowering he bar. Taking bennies from any retired group in my opinion is setting the level of the bar well below where we as group should go.

 

[General Lee]

Here it is. The deal current pilots have made may be nixed becuase the retired dudes want all that is coming to them.

The possible result-- No deal and even more cuts for Delta pilots as the contract is disolved. All to keep the the retirement checks as big as possible.

Is this right or wrong? I'm thinking the retired dudes already got what was due to them. More than many others. They might have to sell their million dollar homes, golf memberships or maybe even trade down to, gasp!, an AMERICAN car.

Did they really think their fat paychecks would last forever? Why do current DAL pilots have to pay for retirees to go golfing?

And, even worse, the retirees want to put Delta's future at risk for their own benefit. Didn't they just berate the active pilots for putting Delta at risk by threatening strike?

I smell hypocricy.




http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060526/delta_pilots.html?.v=2



Court Showdown Looms Over Delta Pay Cuts
Friday May 26, 3:29 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer
Delta Air Lines' Quest for More Wage Cuts From Pilots Hits Some Turbulence in Bankruptcy Court
ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines Inc.'s quest for another round of wage cuts from its pilots has hit some turbulence in an unlikely place -- the bankruptcy court.

The court is often a friend to the debtor, helping it wipe away obligations and restructure leases. But the court is now being asked by the government's influential pension insurer and some retired pilots to nix the concessions deal the company and pilots union recently reached.

The dual objections have raised questions about whether the court will approve the deal, which Delta says would save it $280 million a year, at a hearing Wednesday in New York.

"The case does involve an important federal agency where an awful lot of money is at stake," bankruptcy lawyer William Rochelle said. "I know whoever wins, I expect the loser to appeal."

The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. believes it should get the $650 million note the company has promised the pilots if Delta terminates their pension plan. It also wants the $2.1 billion unsecured claim the pilots have been promised.

Separately, the retired pilots group has objected out of concern the deal would ultimately reduce their benefits based on the pension being terminated.

If the deal is not approved, that could spell trouble for the nation's third-largest carrier.

That's because an arbitration panel would resume consideration of the company's request to reject its pilot contract so it can unilaterally impose the cuts it wants. The active pilots have vowed to strike if their contract is voided, and the company has said a strike would put it out of business.

The same day as the court hearing, Delta's rank-and-file pilots will complete their voting on the concessions agreement, which includes an initial 14 percent pay cut and assurances the union won't fight the company's likely plan to terminate the pilots' pension.

The court has the final say.
Underscoring what both sides stand to lose without a deal, Delta's chief executive, Gerald Grinstein, sent a letter to pilots Friday assuring them that the company will aggressively fight the objections, singling out the one by the PBGC in particular.

"Without this deal, Delta Air Lines is at grave risk and the PBGC -- and potentially the U.S. taxpayer and all of our employees -- will lose out in the long run if this company is put in jeopardy as a result of their objection," Grinstein wrote.

The Air Line Pilots Association, which represents Delta's 5,930 active pilots, has said the agreement reached last month is in the best interest of the airline, its pilots and its creditors. The cuts are in addition to $1 billion in annual concessions the pilots agreed to in a five-year deal in 2004.

The PBGC made a similar objection during the bankruptcy case of UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, but dropped its opposition to the Elk Grove Village, Ill.-based airline's plan to terminate its employees' pension plans after reaching a settlement with the company that promised the agency up to $1.5 billion in notes and convertible stock in the reorganized company.

In the Delta case, the agency is concerned because if a pension plan is terminated without sufficient assets to pay all of its promised benefits, the PBGC becomes trustee of the plan and is responsible for paying participants their pension benefits up to a certain limit. Delta's pilots' pension plan is significantly underfunded.

Rochelle said it's possible the PBGC could reach a settlement with Delta, as it did in the United case.

It's not clear, however, if either side would be willing to do that.
"What I don't know is what are the marching orders in the executive department of the government," Rochelle said. "Maybe they don't want to continually settle these things and instead get a definitive ruling and go to the Supreme Court if they need to."

As for the retired pilots, they say the concessions agreement is improper because they believe it goes beyond what is necessary to help Delta successfully reorganize.
They also allege in their objection that Delta failed to negotiate the agreement "so as to treat fairly and equitably all creditors and affected parties."

In his letter to active pilots, Grinstein defended the deal, especially the company's willingness to give the pilots the huge note and unsecured claim. "Without these terms, there would not have been a deal," Grinstein wrote

The retired guys took atleast half of their pensions with them (if they were smart, rather than the full anuity), and that is more than any current 49 year old current Captain will get. Unfortunately, that means they won't get much more. The BK judge will probably allow this deal to go through, since it will allow this company to move forward, and that would be best for the creditors and all others still involved with this company. Sorry. It does show that you also need to invest for yourself in 401Ks and Roth IRAs, and stay married to the same woman, and only have 2 or less kids.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DAL737FO]

My father was a 25+ year Pan Am pilot who got screwed out of his retirement. Then he went onto to DAL for 10+ years. 5 of which were sideways, not because he wanted to but becuase he needed to, in order to get his retirement bennies.

The thought of seeing him or anyone screwed out of their retirement gets under my skin. It's not personal but I watched this slow death by paper cuts happen to him at Pan Am and some college buddies at TWA. It's ugly and to think that everyone can be a Continental just isn't true. Eventually as a group, we need to stop lowering he bar. Taking bennies from any retired group in my opinion is setting the level of the bar well below where we as group should go.

Well at least it looks like you learned from your father's lessons and went corporate. Based on your aircraft profiles I would say that you probably make more than most airline Captains now a days.