rest period

[matthewjohn]

Do any of your departments have set hours for a required rest period between trips? (ie. you duty off at 2300 what is the earliest you can show the next day to continue that trip or start another trip. If so do you also know a reason this rule is in effect?)

 

[FlyingMoose]

If so do you also know a reason this rule is in effect?

Safety, fatigue, and common sense are a few reasons that come to mind...

I would speculate you are asking in reference to a FAR Part 91 operation. Although there are no specific rest period and flight time restrictions as with 135, 121, etc., you are still very much required to operate in a safe manner and determine that you and the crew are airworthy just as you would the aircraft. Screw something up without reasonable rest and you could find yourself in violation of 91.13... and then look for the civil suits as well.

Your question is very alarming though. It reads as if you are not in favor of having any minimal limits for rest and flight time. I could be reading it wrong.

 

[yfly]

Yes, my company has a rest policy. 10 hours between duty days, if a duty day exceeds 14 hours we must get 16 hours of rest.

The reason for any rule should be safety. Fatigued pilots are dangerous.

 

[Tgaug6300]

Our company is very strict about our Duty Day scheduling.

Our dispatch tries not to schedual anything over 12 hours. Anything over this must be approved by our Chief Pilot. Under no circumstance can we work more than 16 hours (that is down time and flying time).

Dispatch can schedual a 14 hour day if a "Day Room" is available at a hotel.

Crew Duty Time
1.0-12 hours = 10 hours rest
12.1- 14 = 12 hours
>14 hours = 14 hours

 

[snow-back]

12 hour duty periods with 12 hours of rest between duty periods. This is adjusted up as the duty day exceeds 12 hrs. Duty day can go up to 13 hours with CP approval and 14 hours with VP of Flt Ops approval. Duty day isn't adjusted for back of the clock ops.

 

[aufan]

We are part 91 only but basically follow part 135 duty/rest requirments. Its only common sense to have some type of limits. That is nothing more than a safety issue. I know of depts that have no rules and have had 19 hr days ---not too smart

 

[matthewjohn]

When you talk about duty day, do you mean flying for #hours or do you count time on ground also? and does one weigh more than the other in terms of importance for a required rest (ie should doing a trip east coast to west and back, flying 8 hours, being on duty for about 12 hours have more bearing than doing a 1 hr flight sitting for 7-8 hours and flying 1hr back for a total duty day of 12 hours?) Should these days require the same amount of required rest after they are completed before the next trip or day can be started?

 

[snow-back]

Our duty day begins when we arrive at the airport prior to a flight and lasts for 12 hours after that. There is no distinction for flight time versus sit time, east/west trips, day/night, etc...just 12 hours on duty. We can extend our duty day if needed, but won't extend it on the back side of the clock. There are different departments within our flight ops and operations in our particular department mandate a hard 12 hour duty day for operational and safety reasons. Other departments use a max 14 hour duty day with mandatory rest provisions following.

When I flew for the airlines, our max duty day was on a sliding scale and adjusted depending on the time of day. I could never figure it out, but it seemed to work well. eg. If you showed for a 2200 red-eye, your max duty day was 10 hours (or something like that), where if you showed at 0800 for a day trip, your max duty was 15 hours (or something like that).

Duty is duty. It doesn't (shouldn't) matter if you're sitting at an FBO, in flight, on call, waxing your jet, etc.

 

[CA1900]

Duty is duty. It doesn't (shouldn't) matter if you're sitting at an FBO, in flight, on call, waxing your jet, etc.

I think that's really more appropriate for your off time.... :laugh:

 

[snow-back]

I think that's really more appropriate for your off time.... :laugh:

I thought it would have taken at least 10 minutes for someone to catch that.

We are a depraved bunch.

 

[snow-back]

When you talk about duty day, do you mean flying for #hours or do you count time on ground also? and does one weigh more than the other in terms of importance for a required rest (ie should doing a trip east coast to west and back, flying 8 hours, being on duty for about 12 hours have more bearing than doing a 1 hr flight sitting for 7-8 hours and flying 1hr back for a total duty day of 12 hours?) Should these days require the same amount of required rest after they are completed before the next trip or day can be started?

MJ,

What are you looking for? Are you trying to apply flight/duty times for your department or just comparing different flight departments? Are you trying to make a good argument for duty limits (search fatigue in the NTSB database)? There's another forum with a world of pro pilots :erm: that has a good corporate section where you might glean some good info. I hope any of the above helps.

 

[matthewjohn]

I am trying to make a caes for duty limits for our department. Right now it is up to the pilots to self police themselves for required rest and make sure they are OK to fly. I am told that this is what NBAA recommends but I have not confirmed that. How can a pilot know if they need rest most of the time. Most pilots I know are not lazy and want to get the job done, So much to the extent that I think they might be going beyond their capability and not know it cause nothing happened. An situation in our operation is that we often do an hour flight sit 8-9 hrs and fly one hour back for a total duty day of 12 hours. We currently say that the crew could "rest" while on the ground and that therer neednot be a "required minimum rest period" after that day. This situation does not happen often, but it has and it would be nice to know how other departments handle duty time and required rest.

Please keep all input coming.
Thanks

 

[G100driver]

MJ:

During those down time are you hanging out at the FBO or going to a hotel room. This is a very effective way increase duty time without compromising safety.

The NBAA certainly does not recommend that each decide what is best for him or herself as far as a duty day is required. They are members of the Flight Safety Foundation which sets up strict guidlines.

For more info, go here: http://www.flightsafety.org/home.html

As for minimum rest after a flight, yes there is a need. There is nothing worse than a tired pilot who "thinks" he is rested. We are our own worst judges of ourselves. This is why policy and procedures are in effect.

Good luck with structuring a mature and safe flight department.

 

[snow-back]

I agree with G100. Having a long rest period at a hotel can increase your effective duty day. In the 121 world, an 8 or 9 hour break may actually reset your duty day so a pilot could effectively start over. You mention a rest period following duty. In my opinion, this is just as important as a defined max duty day. Having a max 12 hour duty day doesn't do much good if you get in from one trip at 2200 only to launch the next morning at 0600. As far as self-policing, it's self-defeating. Without defined limits through an SOP or other policy, there will always be the temptation to push limits. Several groups have been studied (doctors, pilots, truck drivers, etc.) and it's been shown that fatigue and alcohol consumption have similar effects on a person such as slowing reaction times, impairing judgment and decreasing attention.

Good luck.