RESPECT - Guys at the majors read this

[GCD]

Hey PCL,

Nothing is going to change for you as long as you have the current management in place. It would be easier for you to find another job than to wait for a change at PCL.

As far as pay and respect; I was offered a B-747 captain position this last summer at the whopping pay rate of $200 US per day, a per diem of $30 US, with eight days off per month, and a COACH class ticket to and from work (on my time, taking days off down to six).

Let's see...would I respect myself at $4,400 US per month, travelling coach, on my own time, just to be called a B-747 captain? NO! However, I know there are some people out there that did take the positions...mostly Eurotrash. Another good reason to keep EU pilots out of the US.

I am happy with my job at the above posted pay rates. However, the carrier that offered me the cut-rate-captain job is bidding on some of our current contracts. Pay and respect...I guess there are some folks who'll take a little pay to get the captain title. Sadly, I think that concept is not limited to the EU.

 

[Flying Freddie]

Some times I wonder why I worked so hard on getting my G.E.D. Seems like I wasted a lot of time and money.

 

[WrightAvia]

originally posted by andy:You make very valid points. I have always been opposed to a national seniority list, even during UAL's darkest days (and they're not out of the woods yet).

Yes, I got no problem with unions...gotta have em. I don't see any problem with ONE LISTING a major and it's wholy owned carriers. But a nationalization of the industry, would not be fun. Could you see being a new hire and adding a list the size of the entire airline pilot population ahead of you...dictating your life for ever!

What about domicile problems...you'd be moving a lot.

It sucks that a lot of guys are having a time with being furloughed, but that number wouldn't have changed with a national list and it would only have benefited the senior guys.

 

[texanpilot]

9 yr Mesa RJ FO = $30,000?
5 yr PDT DHC8 FO = $35,000.
Citationman, you are a class act.

 

[wms]

Respect has nothing to do with how much money you earn. C-man is supposedly making major airline bucks, and does nothing to earn respect.

You can't go from an entry level flying job straight to a major. You have to gain some additional experience in corp, charter or regional flying. Because someone is at a stepping stone in their career, doesn't mean they're not a respectable person. The respect you get has more to do with the respect you give.

This doesn't mean commuters should take advantage of their work force, but that the work force should have a little self-respect and stand up for themseves. But when one or more sell themselves out, like has been done recently, they become a tool for the parent companies to use against others and it becomes more difficult to stay the course, until someone else finally has the self-respect to stand firm.

 

[Ligeirinho]

Hey guys I think you all looking just the small picture here, some of made some points but none of you took a big look around.
I am not an Eurotrash neither think they are trash.
I would accept a job as a 747 captain for 4,400 month? Yes, but not because is a 747 captain job as I don't need the title to feed up my kids, but the unemployment finally arrived in US companies are just crazy about pofits so if you don't have a type rating from your pocket forget about a good payed job. So as I never had a chance to get the money for a type rating I have to submit myself to this so called trash jobs. And the thing now is that whoever get ajob in a major hold it but save money becuase the microjets are coming and gonna put down the salaries and the market as they gonna be certified for single pilot and yes they are jets and by the price of an RJ new charter companies gonna be able to buy 20 of them and fly from door to door in no hassle airports.
Yes 9/11 hurt everybody, but what was done??
Around the world and who is international pilot here can confirm was always the way the are trying to do here now and americans always traveled abroad so what's the deal? cowardice? maybe.
But Waht about those people working in the airports now w/o any training because our government thinks is the best of the world for everything. Why those guys don't even know how to approach someone or even how to setup their metal-detector. Yes they don't know that meta detector is samething as an Electro-magnet and generates a circular field around and in max sensitivity if some of "security" guys passes buy if those metals everywhere in their uniforms the metal detector will sound. And now what "go there, remove your, remove your belt, clothes, etc..
And if you try to talk to them you can go to jail. So what ?
Let's put down this government and try to do something decent I am not democrat neither republican but I would never elect some donkey to be my leader. Open your eyes our government here manipulates everybody and because we can buy guns in wallmart we think we're free. WE ARE FAR AWAY FROM FREEDOM here in US. Airline guys get a ticket go to europe go to the beaches there. How come most of the US Major Airlines flight atendants can be seen naked there free and happy and here they cannot even use a thong? Religion? Church? I don't think so in the bible JESUS never told anybody how to dress and HE even forgave Magdalena (prostitute). So what's the deal? We cannot vote for president here and most of the people don't even know that we elect an electoral college who has no compromise with the people and can elect whoever they want (like last elections). So we need to really do something but need to start from the top asking why the enron's people are not in jail? Why someone who did the same as enron's CEO's can be president? Why if our sons are catch druged and drunk being a minor go to juvenile probation and being president's ones don't? Ask yourselves why we can recal only for governors? And how much cost your consious? 600.00 bucks in advance from your taxes?
GOD bless all of us.
Good night.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

ooookay then...

 

[teedub]

boys from brazil

thank god your football is not in any way shape or form linked to your world political views.....although I'd kinda wish it was last year......

hmmmmmmmm!

 

[metrodriver]

quote: mostly Eurotrash. Another good reason to keep EU pilots out of the US.


Wow GCD, you must have had a bad day. I didn't know that's how you see some people.
This company that offered you the job, was that AAI by any chance? I have been following a thread about them on pprune. I noticed there some americans, canadians and quite a few europeans. It also seemed a place where you get on, get current and start looking hard for some company with better pay. If they offered me a job (I haven't applied there, neither at mesa) would I take it? Probably. Right now I have no job, no income. It would be an improvement in my personal (financial) situation. But I do agree, those salaries are not 747 worthy. But it's also here in the states. I have seen starting salaries for 727 crews come down by about 1000/ month. Some bottomfeeding turboprop freight jobs are paying their captains just barely more than a regional jet f/o. These salaries used to be quite reasonable. I guess it's all about the small pond with a lot of fish

 

[GCD]

I don't exactly know what the fellow from Brazil was talking about, but I will answer one accusation. I got hired someplace, got trained, and passed a type rating ride at the end of my training.

As far as Eurotrash. I didn't invent the name. I spend a lot of time in the EU, and have heard many professional EU pilots refer to the AAI and AACS folks as Eurotrash. You are correct about my usual temperment; in that I don't regard all Europeans as Eurotrash. In fact, I have a good time socializing in the EU.

Mind you, I do not have anything against legal immigration to the US. We are a nation made by immigrants. However, coming to the US with the intent to take a PFT seat to build time, without the intent to get citizenship or a "Green Card," and with all of the intent to return to the EU, simply adds fuel to the PFT programs in the US, and cheapens our US jobs. Every time I run into a want-to-be pilot in the EU, I get asked about Gulfstream Airlines. I try to be polite, but it is clear to me that there is a trend for EU citizens to take advantage of our US freedoms, at our (US pilots') expense.

As far as AAI offering me a job... I didn't apply to them. They got my resume' from a data base and sent me a conditional offer of employment, with a class date. When I read the letter of conditional employment, I couldn't believe what they were offering me. I thought it was FO pay until I re-read the letter several times.

As far as the respect issue: Perhaps, if I was unemployed, and couldn't find anything else, I MAY consider the offer. However, every time one of us accepts a job under less than standard pay and conditions, we simply cheapen our profession and lessen our respectability. Also, as a US citizen, taking a EU job, at less than standard EU pay, would conversly cheapen the EU pilot market. I know what name I would be labeled for doing that. There are times when walls are good for the profession.

 

[Lear70]

GCD is right about one thing: nothing at PCL is going to change with the current management in place and the puppeteers in MSP pulling their strings. Those over on Nonconnah purposefully teach the kind of behavior we are on the receiving end of. To be more specific, they are taught and encouraged to bend and/or break the contract if the pilot will allow it and coerscion and threats are part of the game. With that kind of corporate culture at work, it's no wonder the rest of the airline just follows along.

That's one of the reasons I'm not as popular in the SOC as those who "play ball" more than others do. I take a hard-line stance on the contract and regs and call b.s. when scheduling, dispatch, or (very rarely) Mx tries to shortcut the system just to get a flight out. If EVERYONE both here and at other regionals started doing that, along with some other very aggressive behavior (within contractual and legal constraints of course), respect would come with it.

Citation Boy (and others who bash from outside our ranks): for the record, not everyone who works at a regional has PFT'd or attended/worked at one of the "accelerated schools" such as Gulfstream (there's a difference between the two although I'm not a real fan of either of them) but it's not my place to tell someone how they should or should not get a job. I had the invitation to PFT here at Pinnacle (at the time Express I) back in '95 and had the money/credit but turned it down and stayed in the charter world for my own personal reasons. Many pilots at regionals have been in charter, corporate, supplemental Part 121, or ALL THREE, even a major before ending up at a regional for whatever reason they find themselves here, so take care how you lump people into one category...

The size of the aircraft doesn't really matter either as far as respect from corporate is concerned; I interviewed at Transmeridian last month for a direct-entry 727 Captain position but turned it down because the pay was only $4k a year more than PCL with only a few more days off a month and ALL the lines have a little reserve built into them and no security. The pay for all these positions is WAY off, and it'll take some hard-line negotiating to get it back into a reasonable realm, especially in regards to starting F/O pay.

For the original thought of how to gain an reasonable level of respect and cooperation with SOC: it would take a very LARGE effort by ALL the pilots here in STRICT enforcement of the contract, refusal to pick up open time, Will Fly days, denial of Junior Manning assignments, etc (there's no contractual requirement to accept a Junior Assignment nor is there a penalty for it, read closely, a lot of senior guys never accept JM assignments and have yet to be disciplined for it). Once they realize that the pilot group has the solidarity to follow through on these issues, they will start being a lot less belligerent (my .02 cents).

The reality: we don't have the cohesiveness inside our group to organize that kind of response and our Association is prohibited by the RLA from organizing something like that - organizing such a response would be considered an illegal job action (see the APA's penalty for doing something similar a few years ago over at AA). Now would be the perfect time for something like that, given that we are drastically understaffed, have lost several crews lately and are down to barely 11% reserve coverage in DTW and have 5 MORE crews timing out in three weeks, not to mention the 30/7 problems they're created for themselves with these lines... >-) I personally like the quote someone else has on here from "The Patriot": "If your principles dictate war, then war is the only answer; it has come to that."

 

[FLB717]

GCD,
AAI got you resume' froma database? HUH? You must know something that I dont because we only accept them dirrectly that I know. If you dont like our rate, ok others do. many have been furluoghed from USAir and TWA and seem pleses to have the job and the pay scale. Good for you if you dont like it, good for them if they do.

 

[metrodriver]

FLb717: I think you work for Aitran, different AAI then the one from Iceland that flies 747's with pilots that don't get paid very well. A lot of guys there came from major carriers that ceased to exist in Europe, the US and Canada and for most it puts a little food on the table, better than the soup kitchen or the salvation army hand-outs or a job at McD's.

 

[WhiteCloud]

The respect you get has more to do with the respect you give.

Hey folks, if you're looking for respect from the good people that work around airplanes, we, as a group, have to treat them better. When's the last time you asked a guy busting his tail on the ramp how his kids were doing in school? How about the last time you helped a gate agent with a passenger attitude problem or lifted a bag into the upper compartment when the FA was at the other end of the plane? I watch pilots drop the ball on basic manners every day and act like we're a little better than the people who work in our vicinity. A little consideration goes a long way.

 

[GCD]

AAI = Air Atlanta Icelandic for the purposes of this thread.

 

[GCD]

Lear 70,

You are absolutely correct about no enforcement of the contract by the pilot group (I was one of those major guys that ended up at PCL, but left). The most flagrant folks are the senior people who continue to pick up open time. I think some of the Memphis fellows would work for 1/2 of the current pay rate, and management knows it. That's not demonstrating self respect or respect for your fellow pilots.

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of great folks at PCL, and I liked being around them. I even posted a "Thank You" to the PCL pilot group when I left. I just saw so much bravo sierra from both sides that convinced me that there will never be a winning solution.

WhiteCloud,

I agree with you. When I was at PCL, the FA's would all tell me that they had never been treated as respectfully as I had treated them. Got to wonder...I was just civil to them and treated them as part of the crew.

I always get a good chuckle when I see a pilot yelling on the telephone at a crew scheduler. Yea, that's going to help you get respect.

 

[FLB717]

GCD, Metro,
Woops, AAI as in a company not the NYSE Stock symbol, sorry got the clear picture now.