Resigning Seniority

[Ludicrous Speed]

Commuterguy-

Because I’m also furloughed, I’ve given your question quite some thought. I haven’t applied to the regionals because:

-the pay is remarkably low (equivalent to earning about $10/hour at a regular 9-5 job),
-poor QOL aspects including reserve, commuting, crash pad, & scheduling,
-uprooting my entire family to what has been “transient domiciles”, seems financially irresponsible and overly selfish on my behalf… just to fly an snj (shiny new jet),
-and I’m not signing a training contract or a letter that relinquishes a seniority number.

Regardless, congratulations on “Regional’s” job offer… I think.

The idea that a company would require you to relinquish your seniority number, sign a document attesting to the fact, and then forward it to your former employer &/or union speaks volumes about the environment you’re headed for.

I think signing that document violates the third of three cardinal rules for the professional pilot: Don’t burn any bridges, always have an iron in the fire, and keep your options open. Even if it doesn’t outright close that option down, you’re putting it in jeopardy. (It’s true that most unions and even many reputable employers will toss those letters… they know those letters are nothing but an attempt to restrict or limit the options of new employees. Still, it is a risk.)

Our situations differ in that my former employer signed an LOA (Letter of Agreement) with the union, so I know that when the company begins rebuilding, I’ll get a call. For me, those years of seniority and longevity, well, that’s future money in the bank.

We often overlook the importance of negotiated recall rights, especially with both engines humming quietly at 35,000’ and while eating our bagels with cream cheese. Without turning this thread into a union rave, I’ll state that right now, I’m thankful the union negotiated that LOA.

So, how do you feel about being recalled to work by your former employer? Do you have an LOA? Do you firmly believe Fractional will, at some later date, fully honor the terms? How many years do have vested with Fractional? If/When you return to Fractional, will you definitely retain your seniority and longevity?

As gunfyter pointed out, you could attend class, sign your seniority letter, and the very next week be laid off. What protections is Regional offering you, that with Regional, you will absolutely be able to recoup the years invested at Fractional? In other words, if you worked 5 years at Fractional, are you guaranteed 5 years of work or pay with Regional? The answer is, “Of course not.” So, I think it’s well beyond unfair for Regional to make that requirement.

I know Regional’s argument: They’re investing time, money, and resources into you. That’s dandy. Guess what? All that indoc and training… that’s not your doing… It’s required by (federal) law. It’s just the business we’re in. Management thinks its their job to get you to feel you’re something special, having been picked for the job and that 100% commitment to the job means forever shutting all your past doors. BS! If you live up to your end of the bargain and the company fails to live up to theirs, where does that leave you?

But really, your potential recall is probably the best “parachute” you’re going to have. It’s different than the golden parachute that management has, because in your case, (should things not work out between you and Regional) Regional won’t have to pay out one red cent. So, why should they try and take that away from you?

Many companies, including several regionals, are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, they’re trying to limit your options so you won’t leave right away. On the other, work rules and compensation are designed so that after a few years, you’re actually ENCOURAGED to leave. Without recall rights at your former employer, where does that leave you?

I’m guessing that just by posting your question, you’re trying to make a serious go in this industry. I don’t think you’re a 500 hour pilot with SJS (shiny jet syndrome), so I don’t think jeopardizing you seniority number for Regional is the best choice.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

Commuterguy-

It sucks being furloughed, but I got into this business for the long haul. Having flown for nearly 25 years, I remember the tall tales about “the hiring boom”.

I don’t know that we’re headed for a pilot shortage or a hiring boom, but upcoming events mean good news for pilots. I hate to wait two days, let alone 2 years, but I think in about 18 to 24 months, the landscape is going to begin changing. [Questions asked in this post are genuine: I’m looking for real data.]

1-Signed into law in December 2007, we’re nearly 2 1/2 years into the Age 65 Rule. This delayed the potential retirement of thousands of pilots.

The Age 65 rule was passed in part because the airlines did not put up the vehement opposition they had when this issue was previously raised. Why? Because the numbers support a huge percentage of the pilot population is nearing retirement. Why else would an airline not oppose an idea that substantially increases its salary expense?

A couple years back, a short study was published (maybe even by ALPA) listing something like 70% of the ALPA pilots were over the age of 55. (Question) Does anyone have that data or reference to it that supports pilot ages (particularly in 121 ops)?

2-The universities definitely capitalized on - even exploited- the concept/myth of a hiring boom. It’s springtime now here at my local airport and I hear the Cessnas buzzing. For the last couple years though, it’s been deafeningly quiet. (Question) Does anyone have any data on recent/current university or other flight school enrollment and graduation figures? In other words, how many new pilots are in the pipeline, getting ready to join the workforce?

3-From The Buffalo News, City & Region, Sunday March 13, 2010, “Under the Schumer compromise, the FAA will have to set an 800-hour flight requirement for copilots by the end of next year. Some of that experience would have to be in multiple-pilot environments and adverse weather including icing, as well as in other specific conditions. If the FAA fails to develop and implement those rules by the end of next year, new co-pilots automatically would be required to have 1,500 hours of experience in specific, rigorous conditions.”

Just getting a commercial license is going to be more difficult and time-consuming. And, from the looks of potential legislation, no more 400 hour FO’s. (Question) What plans, if any, have the regionals and charter operators (historically, the entry level pilot employers) been making to recruit and retain pilots in the next 2 – 5 years?

4-Aviation operators, including the majors, regionals, and fractionals have significantly cut their operations. On the airline side, base fares are still stupidly low. (Question) Realistically, how much more can be cut before operations and fares have to increase?

5-China. ‘nuff said.

6-Every economy is cyclical. It’s difficult for me to see, but the talking heads say the economy is beginning to upswing. Since we’ve learned through experience that the downturn really bites, I’m optimistic the upswing will result in significant improvements in our lives.

7-As we saw in the latter half of the ‘70’s & early ‘80’s, airlines drew heavily from military pilots with jet experience. With so many civilian pilots with jet experience (employed & unemployed), I don’t see military experience as superceding civilian experience.

The first signs of the airline apocalypse will probably occur overseas. From talks with ex-pat pilots, most of the ex-pats will immediately vacate their contracts once U.S. airlines begin hiring.

The toughest companies hit, though will be the regionals. They’re going to have a heck of a time competing with their mainline counterparts for pilots, because mainline will always protect its own operation first.

So, Commuterguy: I don’t have a magical crystal ball. But I remain optimistic thinking better times are forecasted for pilots!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Get a flashlight, some burglary tools and break into HR and take it back.

 

[glasspilot]

Wow, some really well thought out posts on this thread. I, for one, am happy to see the original topic grow legs and come back.

 

[Photoflight]

Isn't Medicare trying to buy drugs from abroad? There's your "forign commerce".

Americans voted for it. We're gonna get it. Stop painting Joker faces on the President. Clinton tried and failed at the same thing. Nobody painted Joker faces on him.

You do know the guy who created the "Joker" Picture of the POTUS was a 20 year old, liberal, Palestinian college student from chicago right?





As for the original post....Call the CP... let him know whats going on. I wouldn't give up a number to go to the regionals.

Then again I wouldn't give up a piston freight job to go to the regionals years ago either.

 

[Club ORD FO]

is it flexjet?? if so you have no seniority to resign, you were laid off. so you're good to go, the agreement you have with flex is preferential hiring

 

[Hung Start]

is it flexjet?? if so you have no seniority to resign, you were laid off. so you're good to go, the agreement you have with flex is preferential hiring

Careful, my friend.

You are giving out bad info. I have my letter right in front of me, and no where does it mention "preferential hiring".

What it does say is "First Officers participating in the Program shall be notified in order of date of hire of First Officers positions that become available on or before March 29, 2011".

I'm no lawyer, (did stay in a Holiday Inn Express, tho), but I do believe that pretty much says they will call back those layed off in seniority order.

It does mention that you are out of the recall program if you voluntarily request to be removed from the furlough roster, or resign.

I doubt they would break their own words. What good would it do them?

Hung

 

[brokeflyer]

once again, do what you need to do, but dont buy into their bull$hit they try to pull on you.

these companies would butt rape you then share you with their friends for sloppy seconds.

sign a diffrent name on the paper, do anything you can short of breaking the law to get out of that crap. remember, they WILL break the law to make a profit. deny deny deny.

 

[rbav8r]

Only companies that lack integrity are asking you to put your integrity on the line!

 

[rbav8r]

...and to the post that said they rather work at Home Depot. I have applied to 76 flying jobs including flight instructor and ground ops. Additionally, I have applied to McDonalds and WalMart and have not been hired. So while you are currently working as a pilot be carefull of what you tell those of us that are being pushed out of a career everyday that goes by without a flight. I'm willing to flip burgers and cant get a call.

 

[wacoflyr]

deny deny deny.

"Credible deniability" is a term originally coined in the Nixon era. Nice to see that the concept is still alive.

 

[brokeflyer]

"Credible deniability" is a term originally coined in the Nixon era. Nice to see that the concept is still alive.

yeah, but someone else is doing the fcking.

you think these dirtbag operators dont lie to get a percent?

 

[wacoflyr]

you think these dirtbag operators dont lie to get a percent?

Absolutely they do. They do it from comfortable offices that don't move, and where no one dies if they get it wrong. Let's just be clear about what's going on. As I stated earlier, I'm not in the same position as these guys, and I don't think you are either. It would be arrogant for either one of us to tell them they are right or wrong for making a difficult ethical decision. I guess I did exactly that to some extent, and I apologize. Lie, don't lie. Just be able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning. Sometimes I think we get paid to make ethical decisions all day long. It is these decisions, and their consequences, that have convinced me that we belong to one of the most underpaid professions in the country.

Why should an experienced pilot have to start at the bottom of anybody's list? It sounds to me like a manager's dream and an employee's nightmare. How did this profession get so devalued? Why should these pilots be put in a position where they have to make this choice?

 

[brokeflyer]

i hear ya bud. Im retired and I was in management for many years at NW.

I found that making the tough decisions in the air, even though it paid less, was far more satisfying than sitting at my desk knowing that I was the anti-Christ.

I know management has a job, but what many dont realize is they have no flak from making mistakes, they simply move on to another host. like a virus.

 

[ghostrider64]

Seems like this is a matter of mathematics....

Time expected to be furloughed, I suggest there will not be a single person recalled for a minimum of 5 years.

Second add expected earnings with "new employer " up.

Third looking at date of recall find out how long it will take to make up the difference...IE the break even point had you decided to take the new job.

You might find you are looking at 10 years down the road before being recalled equates to income lost because you turned down the job.

Lastly if they are asking for you to Resign your rights, are they in turn willing to guarantee you a 5 year contract of employment? Arguing that if you quit one job for another only to be furloughed again makes no sense.

I've never dealt with being furloughed or unemployment before but I have made career changes fairly late in life. My "worst case" mathematics actually became reality, however I am far ahead today.

Good luck...

PS if I was being employed by a Solid Corporate Flight dept I would drop my number in a minute.

 

[hopalong]

This is proving to be a much tougher decision than I imagined it would be. I've been offered a job with a regional, which I will admit seems like a blessing after being out of ANY work for 9 months. But they will make us give up or seniority/recall rights. The flip side is I have no good feeling for if or when the frac world will pick up and start recalling. It's turning my stomach trying to decide what to do...anyone who's crystal ball is working who wouldn't mind sharing some insight please do...mine broke long ago.

I had ALMOST the same situation about 10 yrs. ago. I was flying for USA Jets and interviewed w/a fortune 100 company hoping to get the gig that would retire me. My buddy that worked at this fortune 100 company was convinced that I would land the job after the group interview. At the same time, USA Jets wanted to promote and type me in another aircraft. They asked me to sign a contract stating that if I left before 2 years that I would have to pay them back the $15k they spent for my type rating. I refused to sign the contract and they let me go. I Never did get the job w/ that fortune 100 company and waited tables for 4 months @ Bennigan's until I landed another flying gig which proved better than my prior job. It's time that we as pilots stand up for ourselves and REFUSE to be INDENTURED SERVANTS!!! You deserve better! DON'T SIGN IT UNLESS THEY ARE WILLING TO GUARANTEE YOU EMPLOYMENT FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS. I know it's hard buddy; especially if you have a family. However, we must command the respect we have worked so hard for so that these AUDACIOUS contracts would disappear. We are responsible for MORE LIVES and REAL ESTATE than any other profession. It's time that we are TREATED and PAID ACCORDINGLY. Please feel free to PM me.

 

[hopalong]

commuterguy-

it sucks being furloughed, but i got into this business for the long haul. Having flown for nearly 25 years, i remember the tall tales about “the hiring boom”.

I don’t know that we’re headed for a pilot shortage or a hiring boom, but upcoming events mean good news for pilots. I hate to wait two days, let alone 2 years, but i think in about 18 to 24 months, the landscape is going to begin changing. [questions asked in this post are genuine: I’m looking for real data.]

1-signed into law in december 2007, we’re nearly 2 1/2 years into the age 65 rule. This delayed the potential retirement of thousands of pilots.

The age 65 rule was passed in part because the airlines did not put up the vehement opposition they had when this issue was previously raised. Why? Because the numbers support a huge percentage of the pilot population is nearing retirement. Why else would an airline not oppose an idea that substantially increases its salary expense?

A couple years back, a short study was published (maybe even by alpa) listing something like 70% of the alpa pilots were over the age of 55. (question) does anyone have that data or reference to it that supports pilot ages (particularly in 121 ops)?

2-the universities definitely capitalized on - even exploited- the concept/myth of a hiring boom. It’s springtime now here at my local airport and i hear the cessnas buzzing. For the last couple years though, it’s been deafeningly quiet. (question) does anyone have any data on recent/current university or other flight school enrollment and graduation figures? In other words, how many new pilots are in the pipeline, getting ready to join the workforce?

3-from the buffalo news, city & region, sunday march 13, 2010, “under the schumer compromise, the faa will have to set an 800-hour flight requirement for copilots by the end of next year. Some of that experience would have to be in multiple-pilot environments and adverse weather including icing, as well as in other specific conditions. If the faa fails to develop and implement those rules by the end of next year, new co-pilots automatically would be required to have 1,500 hours of experience in specific, rigorous conditions.”

just getting a commercial license is going to be more difficult and time-consuming. And, from the looks of potential legislation, no more 400 hour fo’s. (question) what plans, if any, have the regionals and charter operators (historically, the entry level pilot employers) been making to recruit and retain pilots in the next 2 – 5 years?

4-aviation operators, including the majors, regionals, and fractionals have significantly cut their operations. On the airline side, base fares are still stupidly low. (question) realistically, how much more can be cut before operations and fares have to increase?

5-china. ‘nuff said.

6-every economy is cyclical. It’s difficult for me to see, but the talking heads say the economy is beginning to upswing. Since we’ve learned through experience that the downturn really bites, i’m optimistic the upswing will result in significant improvements in our lives.

7-as we saw in the latter half of the ‘70’s & early ‘80’s, airlines drew heavily from military pilots with jet experience. With so many civilian pilots with jet experience (employed & unemployed), i don’t see military experience as superceding civilian experience.

The first signs of the airline apocalypse will probably occur overseas. From talks with ex-pat pilots, most of the ex-pats will immediately vacate their contracts once u.s. Airlines begin hiring.

The toughest companies hit, though will be the regionals. They’re going to have a heck of a time competing with their mainline counterparts for pilots, because mainline will always protect its own operation first.

So, commuterguy: I don’t have a magical crystal ball. But i remain optimistic thinking better times are forecasted for pilots!

excellent post!!!!

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

I wouldn't sign it. When the commuter furloughs you, you will be out of TWO jobs. Any company that insists that you give up your seniority already knows that you won't be with them long.

 

[bmxandjets]

Patriot Americans believe in the Constitution.... All others (whether elected to high office or not), are enemies of the Constitution.

Show me in the COTUS where the United States is authorized to exercise power regarding health care....

amen brother..

and i agree, bring on the fairtax, this american would rather have a job and pay for my own insurance, than "free" crap from the gov't..

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

I"ll take the "free crap." I paid for it.