Required Pilot-to-Controller Responses

[twighead]

The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.

this is exactly right. it just says that you have to report when leaving for the new altitude. nowhere does it specify how you report it, or that you have to verbalize the altitude you are leaving and the one you are going to.

 

[NCherches]

Well your also suppose to say "FIFE" and NINER all the time. Some people are too serious on the radio...we need to have more fun.

 

[Sphinx]

<sigh>

Well your also suppose to say "FIFE" and NINER all the time. Some people are too serious on the radio...we need to have more fun.

$.02

Not in radio communications with control. (re: we need to have more fun)

RE: niner... "nine" means no in German...there's reasons behind the phonetics on a radio...try using them, your controllers will appreciate it. TCDP all can sound the same over chatter. Do you actually think the phonetics are for fun? <rolls eyes>

 

[Sphinx]

fun

Christ...I'm up to a nickel...

Fun??? you've logged over 3500+ hours...you're a pilot...You should be having fun...if you're not...give the little piece of plastic you hold in your wallet back..and Drive Cross Country.

 

[NCherches]

What is your picture of? I think my MSFS had one of those... anyways, relax, controllers are people, they understand nine and yes. Not all of them speak german belive it or not.

 

[PHX767]

Pilot's Discretion descents...

The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent:

Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250"

When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250"

This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.

 

[twighead]

Well your also suppose to say "FIFE" and NINER all the time. Some people are too serious on the radio...we need to have more fun.

don't forget "tree" instead of three

 

[flystoomuch]

Amen!!!

Originally posted by districtpilot:
“The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.”

Originally posted by Twighead:
“this is exactly right. it just says that you have to report when leaving for the new altitude. NOWHERE does it specify how you report it, or that you have to verbalize the altitude you are leaving and the one you are going to.”

AMEN!!!

In a radar environment, THEY ALREADY KNOW WHAT ALTITUDE YOU’RE AT… they could care less if you SAY the altitude you are leaving AND the newly assigned altitude… it just adds to radio clutter especially in a high traffic environment.

All they need you to do is to CLEARLY and DISTINCTLY say what altitude you’re are climbing or descending to in your readback.

Examples:
“Falcon 123 descending to eight thousand;” or…

“Eight thousand for Falcon 123:” or…

“Down to eight thousand, Falcon 123.”

Originally Posted by PHX767:
“The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent: Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250" When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250" This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.”

Right on again!

The AIM 5-3-3 reference certainly is valid for a “Pilot’s Discretion” clearance.
“Falcon 123 is descending now to eight thousand” That’s just to keep things honest and makes sure he didn’t forget about the PD he gave to you and clear another aircraft to cross your path while you were still hangin’ around in the flight levels (has happened).

Getting back to the original quote from ’72 Gremlin:
“I was under the impression pilots were ‘REQUIRED’ to include the altitude you are vacating in the readback.”

While it clearly is not “REQUIRED,” I guess you could say that it’s not necessarily wrong either. It just adds to frequency clutter especially in high traffic situations.

My bet is the Captain was just trying to get you into the swing of things.

There’s quite a bit of other frequency clutter out there that’s a LOT more annoying… ESPECIALLY when the controller is spitting out instructions like a tobacco auctioneer on amphetamines (e.g., “Good morning Atlanta Center, this is Falcon 123 with you, level at, and checking in at Flight Level 310”… when all that needs to be said is… “Falcon 123 at 310”). In other words, don’t waste 8 seconds of the controllers time with two seconds worth of information (i.e., He already knows it’s a “Good morning”, he already knows he’s “Atlanta Center”, he already knows “this is”, he already knows you’re “with him, level at, and/or checking in”). I’m now going to step down off my soapbox.

I can appreciate Don Brown’s holding pattern scope clutter scenario although I’ve mentioned it to a couple of controller friends of mine that don’t seem to have a problem with it either way. I will however consider it the next time I’m stacked in a hold.

I highly respect A Squared’s opinion, but I don’t think there is a distinct right or wrong on this particular subject.

That’s my fifty cent.

Flame away!

 

[A Squared]

I highly respect A Squared’s opinion, but I don’t think there is a distinct right or wrong on this particular subject.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

That’s my fifty cent.

Flame away!

Hey, no flames, it's just a discussion. The only real point of contention I have is that you and a couple of others have said that this is only applicable to pilot's discretion descents. Now, I'm at a loss how anyone can read the words "at all times" and think it really means: "only when you've been issued a PD descent" Clearly "at all times" means" "at all times" not: "only some of the time". I think I worded it a little strongly when I said "required" the AIM is recomendations, in most cases very good recomendations. My point was that the original poster was doing it as per the AIM recommendations, and that his captain is out of line telling him he's wrong. As far as controllers you've talked to, hey controllers are probably at least as different as pilots are. Don Brown tends to favor a "do it by the book, there's good reasons for it" approach but no blindly so. One of the things that impresses me about him, is that whenever he says "look, do this like the AIM says to do it" he backs it up with real world examples why that way is better. Naturally, you'll find less conservative controllers who don't think the AIM is as important.

One last thing as food for thought. A couple of you have made the obervation that when things get busy, it's best to shorten things up and leave stuff out of your calls. Again I'll drag Don into this, sorry to keep doing it, but over the couple of years I've been reading his columns, I've developed a very high regard for his opinions on things like this. ANyway, his view (and like all of them, he backs it up with excelent examples) is that making your transmissions shorter than the AIM recommendecd format, actually uses up *more* of his time on frequency because of increased requests for repeats, resulting from the less clear communication. In other words, the air time you save by dropping a word or two out of your transmission is small compared to the time lost as a result of him asking you to clarify. So to even it out on the time budget, one request for a repeat has to be offset by many people dropping out words, but if many people drop out words, the number of repeats goes up. it's a viscious cycle. Just something to think about.

 

[100LL... Again!]

That Captain is a tool. It is harmless to report the altitude passing through even if not required.