twighead
Pan Pan
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Required Pilot-to-Controller Responses
- Thread starter '72Gremlin
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Sphinx
IwannaflyIwannaflyIwannaf
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<sigh>
$.02
Not in radio communications with control. (re: we need to have more fun)
RE: niner... "nine" means no in German...there's reasons behind the phonetics on a radio...try using them, your controllers will appreciate it. TCDP all can sound the same over chatter. Do you actually think the phonetics are for fun? <rolls eyes>
$.02
Not in radio communications with control. (re: we need to have more fun)
RE: niner... "nine" means no in German...there's reasons behind the phonetics on a radio...try using them, your controllers will appreciate it. TCDP all can sound the same over chatter. Do you actually think the phonetics are for fun? <rolls eyes>
Last edited:
PHX767
it's a dry heat
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- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 349
Pilot's Discretion descents...
The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent:
Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250"
When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250"
This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.
The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent:
Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250"
When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250"
This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.
flystoomuch
Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2006
- Posts
- 7
Amen!!!
Originally posted by districtpilot:
“The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.”
Originally posted by Twighead:
“this is exactly right. it just says that you have to report when leaving for the new altitude. NOWHERE does it specify how you report it, or that you have to verbalize the altitude you are leaving and the one you are going to.”
AMEN!!!
In a radar environment, THEY ALREADY KNOW WHAT ALTITUDE YOU’RE AT… they could care less if you SAY the altitude you are leaving AND the newly assigned altitude… it just adds to radio clutter especially in a high traffic environment.
All they need you to do is to CLEARLY and DISTINCTLY say what altitude you’re are climbing or descending to in your readback.
Examples:
“Falcon 123 descending to eight thousand;” or…
“Eight thousand for Falcon 123:” or…
“Down to eight thousand, Falcon 123.”
Originally Posted by PHX767:
“The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent: Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250" When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250" This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.”
Right on again!
The AIM 5-3-3 reference certainly is valid for a “Pilot’s Discretion” clearance.
“Falcon 123 is descending now to eight thousand” That’s just to keep things honest and makes sure he didn’t forget about the PD he gave to you and clear another aircraft to cross your path while you were still hangin’ around in the flight levels (has happened).
Getting back to the original quote from ’72 Gremlin:
“I was under the impression pilots were ‘REQUIRED’ to include the altitude you are vacating in the readback.”
While it clearly is not “REQUIRED,” I guess you could say that it’s not necessarily wrong either. It just adds to frequency clutter especially in high traffic situations.
My bet is the Captain was just trying to get you into the swing of things.
There’s quite a bit of other frequency clutter out there that’s a LOT more annoying… ESPECIALLY when the controller is spitting out instructions like a tobacco auctioneer on amphetamines (e.g., “Good morning Atlanta Center, this is Falcon 123 with you, level at, and checking in at Flight Level 310”… when all that needs to be said is… “Falcon 123 at 310”). In other words, don’t waste 8 seconds of the controllers time with two seconds worth of information (i.e., He already knows it’s a “Good morning”, he already knows he’s “Atlanta Center”, he already knows “this is”, he already knows you’re “with him, level at, and/or checking in”). I’m now going to step down off my soapbox.
I can appreciate Don Brown’s holding pattern scope clutter scenario although I’ve mentioned it to a couple of controller friends of mine that don’t seem to have a problem with it either way. I will however consider it the next time I’m stacked in a hold.
I highly respect A Squared’s opinion, but I don’t think there is a distinct right or wrong on this particular subject.
That’s my fifty cent.
Flame away!
Originally posted by districtpilot:
“The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.”
Originally posted by Twighead:
“this is exactly right. it just says that you have to report when leaving for the new altitude. NOWHERE does it specify how you report it, or that you have to verbalize the altitude you are leaving and the one you are going to.”
AMEN!!!
In a radar environment, THEY ALREADY KNOW WHAT ALTITUDE YOU’RE AT… they could care less if you SAY the altitude you are leaving AND the newly assigned altitude… it just adds to radio clutter especially in a high traffic environment.
All they need you to do is to CLEARLY and DISTINCTLY say what altitude you’re are climbing or descending to in your readback.
Examples:
“Falcon 123 descending to eight thousand;” or…
“Eight thousand for Falcon 123:” or…
“Down to eight thousand, Falcon 123.”
Originally Posted by PHX767:
“The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent: Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250" When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250" This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.”
Right on again!
The AIM 5-3-3 reference certainly is valid for a “Pilot’s Discretion” clearance.
“Falcon 123 is descending now to eight thousand” That’s just to keep things honest and makes sure he didn’t forget about the PD he gave to you and clear another aircraft to cross your path while you were still hangin’ around in the flight levels (has happened).
Getting back to the original quote from ’72 Gremlin:
“I was under the impression pilots were ‘REQUIRED’ to include the altitude you are vacating in the readback.”
While it clearly is not “REQUIRED,” I guess you could say that it’s not necessarily wrong either. It just adds to frequency clutter especially in high traffic situations.
My bet is the Captain was just trying to get you into the swing of things.
There’s quite a bit of other frequency clutter out there that’s a LOT more annoying… ESPECIALLY when the controller is spitting out instructions like a tobacco auctioneer on amphetamines (e.g., “Good morning Atlanta Center, this is Falcon 123 with you, level at, and checking in at Flight Level 310”… when all that needs to be said is… “Falcon 123 at 310”). In other words, don’t waste 8 seconds of the controllers time with two seconds worth of information (i.e., He already knows it’s a “Good morning”, he already knows he’s “Atlanta Center”, he already knows “this is”, he already knows you’re “with him, level at, and/or checking in”). I’m now going to step down off my soapbox.
I can appreciate Don Brown’s holding pattern scope clutter scenario although I’ve mentioned it to a couple of controller friends of mine that don’t seem to have a problem with it either way. I will however consider it the next time I’m stacked in a hold.
I highly respect A Squared’s opinion, but I don’t think there is a distinct right or wrong on this particular subject.
That’s my fifty cent.
Flame away!
A Squared
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 3,006
flystoomuch said:
Hey, no flames, it's just a discussion. The only real point of contention I have is that you and a couple of others have said that this is only applicable to pilot's discretion descents. Now, I'm at a loss how anyone can read the words "at all times" and think it really means: "only when you've been issued a PD descent" Clearly "at all times" means" "at all times" not: "only some of the time". I think I worded it a little strongly when I said "required" the AIM is recomendations, in most cases very good recomendations. My point was that the original poster was doing it as per the AIM recommendations, and that his captain is out of line telling him he's wrong. As far as controllers you've talked to, hey controllers are probably at least as different as pilots are. Don Brown tends to favor a "do it by the book, there's good reasons for it" approach but no blindly so. One of the things that impresses me about him, is that whenever he says "look, do this like the AIM says to do it" he backs it up with real world examples why that way is better. Naturally, you'll find less conservative controllers who don't think the AIM is as important.
One last thing as food for thought. A couple of you have made the obervation that when things get busy, it's best to shorten things up and leave stuff out of your calls. Again I'll drag Don into this, sorry to keep doing it, but over the couple of years I've been reading his columns, I've developed a very high regard for his opinions on things like this. ANyway, his view (and like all of them, he backs it up with excelent examples) is that making your transmissions shorter than the AIM recommendecd format, actually uses up *more* of his time on frequency because of increased requests for repeats, resulting from the less clear communication. In other words, the air time you save by dropping a word or two out of your transmission is small compared to the time lost as a result of him asking you to clarify. So to even it out on the time budget, one request for a repeat has to be offset by many people dropping out words, but if many people drop out words, the number of repeats goes up. it's a viscious cycle. Just something to think about.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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'72Gremlin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Posts
- 179
AIM does give an example of how to report leaving an altitude:
[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]
5-3-1. ARTCC Communications
EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) contact (facility name or location name and terminal function) (frequency) at (time, fix, or altitude).
NOTE-
Pilots are expected to maintain a listening watch on the transferring controller's frequency until the time, fix, or altitude specified. ATC will omit frequency change restrictions whenever pilot compliance is expected upon receipt.
2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:
(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.
[/FONT]
Given, this is in the "Frequency Change Procedures" section, but it provides an example of how to report "leaving" an altitude.
I see that 5-3-3-a-1 can be interpreted in two different ways. When an instrutor pointed this out to me years ago (when I didn't include the vacating altitude in my readback), he showed me 5.5.3 in the AIM, and I interpreted it to mean that you had to include the altitude your were vacating. Afterall, that is the reason for the additional report in the first place, so why wouldn't you add that piece of information? However, after reading that sentence over and over again, I agree that AIM is not technically directive on HOW to make that additional report and a readback of the altitude you're vacating is not "required."
I do understand the need to declutter the radio waves in high density traffic areas with succint, to the point, radio transmissions. That additional 2 seconds of information, though, may not make a difference to the air traffic controller, but it may increase the situational awareness of other pilots in the same area. Or it may clue a controller in on an aircraft attemping to accept a altitude clearance intended for someone else.
The Air Force, on the other hand, is much more directive on what a pilot must readback. A pilot must readback an altitude (departing and assigned) when assigned an new altitude.
AFMAN 11-217V1 3 JANUARY 2005
11.7. Pilot Responsibilities.
[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]11.7.1. During Vectors. [/FONT][FONT=KABJNN+TimesNewRoman,BoldItali,Times New Roman]While being radar vectored, repeat all headings, altitudes (departing and assigned), and altimeter settings; and comply with controller instructions[/FONT][FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]. [/FONT]
[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]
There must be a reason for that.
Thanks, all, for the good discussion on an misunderstood topic. And just to set the record straight, the guy I flew with was really a good dude and nice guy. I was just caught off guard with his interpretation of 5.5.3 and what I thought was technically correct and came to ya'll for help/clarification for my own edification. I appreciate the good comments.
Gremlin
[/FONT]
[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]
[SIZE=+1]Section 3. En Route Procedures[/SIZE]
5-3-1. ARTCC Communications
b. ATC Frequency Change Procedures.
1. The following phraseology will be used by controllers to effect a frequency change: EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) contact (facility name or location name and terminal function) (frequency) at (time, fix, or altitude).
NOTE-
Pilots are expected to maintain a listening watch on the transferring controller's frequency until the time, fix, or altitude specified. ATC will omit frequency change restrictions whenever pilot compliance is expected upon receipt.
2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:
(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.
[/FONT]
Given, this is in the "Frequency Change Procedures" section, but it provides an example of how to report "leaving" an altitude.
I see that 5-3-3-a-1 can be interpreted in two different ways. When an instrutor pointed this out to me years ago (when I didn't include the vacating altitude in my readback), he showed me 5.5.3 in the AIM, and I interpreted it to mean that you had to include the altitude your were vacating. Afterall, that is the reason for the additional report in the first place, so why wouldn't you add that piece of information? However, after reading that sentence over and over again, I agree that AIM is not technically directive on HOW to make that additional report and a readback of the altitude you're vacating is not "required."
I do understand the need to declutter the radio waves in high density traffic areas with succint, to the point, radio transmissions. That additional 2 seconds of information, though, may not make a difference to the air traffic controller, but it may increase the situational awareness of other pilots in the same area. Or it may clue a controller in on an aircraft attemping to accept a altitude clearance intended for someone else.
The Air Force, on the other hand, is much more directive on what a pilot must readback. A pilot must readback an altitude (departing and assigned) when assigned an new altitude.
AFMAN 11-217V1 3 JANUARY 2005
11.7. Pilot Responsibilities.
[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]11.7.1. During Vectors. [/FONT][FONT=KABJNN+TimesNewRoman,BoldItali,Times New Roman]While being radar vectored, repeat all headings, altitudes (departing and assigned), and altimeter settings; and comply with controller instructions[/FONT][FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]. [/FONT]
[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]
There must be a reason for that.
Thanks, all, for the good discussion on an misunderstood topic. And just to set the record straight, the guy I flew with was really a good dude and nice guy. I was just caught off guard with his interpretation of 5.5.3 and what I thought was technically correct and came to ya'll for help/clarification for my own edification. I appreciate the good comments.
Gremlin
[/FONT]
AIM 5-3-1 (b)
When in Radar contact:
(a)When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level", or "climbing to" or "descending to", as appropriate, and the aircrafts present vacating altitude, if applicaable.
Example 2: (Name) Center, Leaving (altitude or flight level), climbing to or descending to (altitude or flight level).
Looks to me the Captain was right.
When in Radar contact:
(a)When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level", or "climbing to" or "descending to", as appropriate, and the aircrafts present vacating altitude, if applicaable.
Example 2: (Name) Center, Leaving (altitude or flight level), climbing to or descending to (altitude or flight level).
Looks to me the Captain was right.
districtpilot
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FlySacto
Ale User
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- Jan 22, 2002
- Posts
- 345
In high volume traffic areas, the most short and sweet response that gets the message across is kind of common sense. When 50-100nm out and ATC advises you to cross a fix at an altitude or descend via an arrival you might want to let them know when you're starting down (and from what altitude) when you decide to begin the descent. The AIM is always good form, but pilots that just like to hear themselves talk or do a little chest-pounding are a dumb as they sound. If you're on the radio more than 3 seconds per most transmissions you're really not getting it....
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