Request for Proposals to connect for DAL

[akhercs]

Just curiuos, with all this talk about scope, the RJs, Delta pilots on furlough, etc.... I would be curious to see what kind of proposal the Delta pilots would be willing to make in an effort to fly these new RJs. Do you think they would be competitive with any of the regionals?

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

That would be negotiating a different pay rate for the RJ - not a bid proposal. That would mean that Delta pilots would have to negotiate a pay rate to oust the lowest bidder (the "controllable cost of labor" as it was phrased). Less than CMR, CHQ, ASA, SKYW, or anyone else. I'm sure the company would be open to it though.

sarcasm...
That would, of course, earn respect from the entire industry and honor among their major airline peers...

Delta pilots that frequent other threads have pointed out the reason they are not currently flying RJ's for Delta - they will not compete in that price bracket ie. lower pay.

nice flamebait though

Pez

 

[FurloughedAgain]

interestingly...

Interestingly today is November 1st.

According to Comair's VP flight ops a Request for Proposal (RFP) will go out to allow carriers to bid for DCI expansion.

There will be an opportunity for the usual suspects to make adjustments to their own PWA in order to secure the promise of "growth". The race to the bottom will continue.

You see, John Orenstein said something interesting recently. He said his pilots are overpaid.

When asked to justify this statement he shrugged it off by stating, "I dont have any trouble filling newhire classes".

So, as you can see, someone will fly the planes. And if that someone decides to stand their ground then someone ELSE will fly the planes.

You see this is why the "portfolio concept" is a danger to organized labor. The whipsaw can be continued indefinately with an infinate number of airlines. They can continuously underbid each other to acquire the codeshare.

Nomatter how much we argue and condemn them on this or any other website -- they'll do the flying and they'll do it cheaper. They suffer from the unrealistic expectation that if they just get the growth...they'll upgrade faster...get the 1000 pic turbine quicker...and THEN move on to their "real" jobs.

When the dust settles and they find themselves stuck at their so-called "stepping stone" for more than 5 years they become dejected and angry. In time the growth comes to an end or, worse, another carrier underbids them and the flying is transferred there.

That is the RFP. It is a call to carriers to underbid their brothers. It is the starting pistol in the race to the bottom. It is management looking for the cheapest possible product because once it is painted in Delta Connection colors the traveling public thinks they're being flown by Delta pilots. They don't know the difference! They dont know if they're on Comair and they cant even spell Chautauqua. The airplane they climbed aboard says Delta on the side -- the ticket says Delta -- and they believe they're flying Delta. If management can foster that illusion for cheap...why wouldnt they?

People are worried that Mesa might become the next Delta Connection carrier. I've said for quite some time now that I believe Chautauqua is the single greatest threat to the continued growth and prosperity at Comair. They have a CEO who is every-bit as wiley as Orenstein. They have a young pilot group who are admitedly growth-junkies. They have a virtually unlimited supply of new aircraft available from Wexford Capital and the Solitaire Leasing Group. They are teamsters with no allegiance to ALPA. They are the next Mesa.

So the shot was fired and the race is on to determine who will receive the additional DCI growth. One thing is for certain. The result can not be good for the career "regional" pilot. There are too many of our brothers willing to step on our carcas to fuel their own unrealistic expectations.

So who do you think will win?

 

[OldManPilot]

How much do you want to make? Isn't that what it is all about? If your happy earning 50k-70K per year, then career at a regional airline is probably just fine. If you want more than that, you will just have to wait for the turn around of the majors. you will never turn a regional payscale into a mainline payscale, so stop your complaining. Stay or leave, just stop whinning like a little girl.

 

[wms]

How much do you want to make? Isn't that what it is all about? If your happy earning 50k-70K per year, then a career at a regional airline is probably just fine.

The problem is that with new race to the bottom, resulting from pilots at profitable airlines caving and taking concessions, that 50-70k won't last.

The majors are shifting from being an airline to a broker; going to the lowest bidder, rather than providing their own efficient service. Delta has abandoned its sound business plan and is following the model of USA and UAL, which will have the same results. Until DAL/DCI consolidates into one company and eliminates the costs of overlapping infrastructures, they will continue to waste valuable capital in the name of labor tactics.

JB will be setting the pattern for the future again with its integration of the ERJ. Meanwhile, the majors expand beyond their span of control and become wallowing giants.

The way for airlines to be profitable and pilots make fair wages is for us all to be one and on the same page.

 

[Heavy Set]

This post is tailor-made for General Lee... Where could he be?????

 

[KingAirKiddo]

I agree with Furloughed Again. I am appalled by the way the regional segment of our industry has turned into a feeding frenzy for growth hungry pilots willing to work for bottom dollar in order to get a fourth stripe and 1000 PIC (newsflash: the majors will not be in hiring mode again for quite awhile and most of us will be staying at the regional level, so what the hell is this obsession all about anyway?!)

We are our own worst enemies. I don't blame airline managements; they are simply doing their jobs and exploiting the inherent weakness WITHIN OUR OWN RANKS. Until we start demanding to be treated as professionals and stop selling each other out, the downward spiral will continue.

Read FLYING THE LINE I and II and HELP STOP THE WHIPSAW!

 

[46Driver]

If you want to stop - or at least slow down - this downward spiral, you are going to have affect the incentive. In this case, the incentive is a career airline (not just a traditional major such as Delta, United, American, etc but now also JetBlue, Southwest, AirTran). These carriers all require substantial amounts of PIC to be hired. Until that PIC requirement dies, you are going to have almost every regional FO fighting tooth and nail to upgrade and escape the regionals - and with AirTran getting 737's, Southwest more 737's, and JetBlue the big ERJ's, there is going to be substantial hiring.

The second part of this needs also to be enforced by the hiring committees of the big airlines. If you work for a regional airline that pays less than an established industry wage, you will not be hired anywhere else. This should put enough incentive on pilots at bottom feeder airlines to either improve their contracts since PIC time at that airline would still not get you hired anywhere else - in other words, a blacklist.

To put an end to this, you are going to have to start with the hiring committees at the career airlines.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

46 driver,

As you know we will never change the interviewers mind. Hiring requirements ebb and flow frequently with supply and demand.

In the mid 90s 1000 PIC turbine was only a requirement for SWA and FedEx. (Hence the thousands of pilots now furloughed from major airlines that lack that requirement).

We will also never change the mind of the pilot groups at-large. In a profession when pilots are willing to pay-for-training, or attend flightschools which guarantee interviews allowing pilots to bypass large segments of experience (charter, freight, turboprop, etc.) in exchange for $$$ there will ALWAYS be those who are willing to endure sacrifice in order to advance towards their ultimate goal -- regardless of whether that goal is realistic.

So I suppose the question is, can a carrier such as Comair, Air Wisconsin, or American Eagle -- formerly considered "career regionals" expect to remain career options, or for that matter, will they even survive the next decade.

The very same contracts which made them appealing career targets for me (and, admitedly, stepping stones for others) may potentially price them out of the market. Without contractual protections such as the Allegheny/Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions there is nothing to stop the wholesale transfer of aircraft and flying to the lowest bidder -- a cycle which could continue indefinately.

What can we, as "career" pilots at these companies do to protect our futures while, through no fault of our own, we price ourselves out of existance?

I'm not advocating concessions, but lets say that you're Mr. Airline Manager. (May I call you Mr. Lorenzo?) What would YOU do? There are two airplanes sitting outside in Podunk Connection colors. The customer can not tell the difference. You recoup 100% of the revenue from both... but one costs less to operate (contract).

What would YOU do? That is my point. There is a storm coming... and, in my opinion, we're in for a rough ride.

 

[JTrain]

Furloughed Again - well said in both your posts.

I think we are only scratching the surface of the portfolio of carriers, "whipsawing" technique. As it is, various mgmts who apply it are doing quite well, eg Mesa, DCI. It quite frankly scares me what the future holds for the regional industry as many pilot groups contemplate trading hard won work rules and pay rates for growth.

JT