Replacing the 727 at FedEx

[Beertini]

Quick question.....with all the hiring lately at FedEx has anyone brought up the possible overstaffing that may come up if FedEx gets rid of the 727 and replaces it with a 2 man airplane? Just curious if it is a concern. Thanks.

I asked that very question to one of the Big Cheeses that came to our indoc class when I was a noob. He said that if a two seat 727 replacement showed up on the ramp 'tomorrow' the company would still be 130 guys short.

Beertini

 

[time builder]

Interesting comment about the 737 center fuel tank limitation. The 727 floor load limits went away after a couple of years of the feds wanting to reduce them to 3000# per position. I'll bet Fred's pull in DC had a lot to do with that.

The fuel tank load limitation in the Ameristar 737 was 5000 lbs JetA in the center tank, reducing the total capacity from 34000 to 24000. In short, you just lost about 1.5, maybe 2 hours of endurance in cruise.

 

[Groundpounder]

Isn't Kitty Hawk flying cargo B733's? How are they working out?

 

[stupidpilot]

I've seen Ameristar run cargo in 737's, and they had to drop 10,000 lbs. out of the center fuel tank capacity. They just don't hold nearly as much weight as the 727's.
My bet is that we see more regional hubs taking A300's and DC10's, the other cities will be connected by ATR flights from the regional hubs.

That's probably because Ameritar's 737's are 200's.

 

[dee48eal]

fedex will buy anything if its cheap and plentiful. the atrs are being flown by the same folks that fly the other feeders - its all about the $

fedex longtimer

 

[Superpilot92]

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0000480/L/

then they are going old school

 

[Tomct]

Talked with a friend of mine who's dad is a Senior Captain at FedEx. He said that they would LOVE the 757, but they would have to get new ground equipement....loaders? The lift would definately improve with that bad@ss mama jama, but who knows. For size, there is NOTHING that can compare to the 757! It can carry a mother load and have few if any limitations as far as weight restrictions etc. Only time will tell!

 

[EuroWheenie]

Tomct

Talked with a friend of mine who's dad is a Senior Captain at FedEx. He said that they would LOVE the 757, but they would have to get new ground equipement....loaders? The lift would definately improve with that bad@ss mama jama, but who knows. For size, there is NOTHING that can compare to the 757! It can carry a mother load and have few if any limitations as far as weight restrictions etc. Only time will tell!

Right, well that would be for the production freighter ... which is no longer in production. Outside of the Brown Brigade there is a total or 4 PF's flying around, and none are for sale. UPS are not exactly looking at selling theirs either.

That leaves you with the SF (or BCF as they're called these days). Our lot got 34 of the things, and we are indeed limited! We've got 2 different MTOW's, 93 and 99 tons. Max payload is never more than 28 tons, which on a 99t aeroplane you can carry for around 3.5 hours. However, as with FedEx we're mainly limited by the volume. Although the 75 can load upwards of 11 tons in the bellies, it's just never used. For one, it'll take too bloody long to load and off-load. Secondly, once you've loaded 20 tons on the maindeck, well, there's not much more to play with. Sure, you could technically speaking load around 8 more tons there, but we ain't got 2 hour turn-arounds in the express business.

As bang for the buck goes, the A321 would make much more sense. 13 positions upstairs and the option of contairizing the bellies. Much leighter than the 757 too, and not much in the way of volumetric difference.

Don't get me wrong now, the 757 is a fine aeroplane. It's just that the A321 will do 90% of what a 757 can, but at 60% of the costs. Which is also the reason why the A321 can be bought brand new today, whereas the 757 can't. Our outfit was seriously considering the A321 around 8 years ago. But there weren't too many available second hand, and those who were available was rather on the expensive side. Brand new was never an option for us.

In case you're wondering who "we" are, well, there's only one integrator who's not based in Atlanta, and operates 757s.

 

[big_al]

if the A321 is such a great option, how come there have never been any in service?

 

[time builder]

Tomct



...Although the 75 can load upwards of 11 tons in the bellies, it's just never used. For one, it'll take too bloody long to load and off-load. Secondly, once you've loaded 20 tons on the maindeck, well, there's not much more to play with. Sure, you could technically speaking load around 8 more tons there, but we ain't got 2 hour turn-arounds in the express business.

As bang for the buck goes, the A321 would make much more sense. 13 positions upstairs and the option of contairizing the bellies. Much leighter than the 757 too, and not much in the way of volumetric difference.

Don't get me wrong now, the 757 is a fine aeroplane. It's just that the A321 will do 90% of what a 757 can, but at 60% of the costs. Which is also the reason why the A321 can be bought brand new today, whereas the 757 can't. Our outfit was seriously considering the A321 around 8 years ago.

I'm not a huge Airbus fan, but this guy could be on to something. Also along the lines of the belly loading, remember that the A320 family is equipped for cans in the belly (I believe that's why they consider it a widebody).

Doing 90% of what the 757 can sounds a little rosy for cargo ops, is that a volumetric figure? Are you saying that because the 321 holds around 180 PAX where the 757 holds a little over 200? We're talking cargo here, you need payload, not just volume. I'll have to research the numbers.

 

[EuroWheenie]

time builder

The A321 holds 13 AAA ULDs. The 757-200SF we've got holds 14 AAA + 1 LD3. For the bellies, our docs show a volume of 53cbm (cubic meters), Airbus says the A321 has 52cbm. Therefore, the 757 has roughly 20cbm more volume. Total volume of a 757 is around 230cbm vs around 205 for the A321; a rough 10% difference. I've no data on payload capability for the A321, but would guesstimate at around 23-25 tons vs 28 for a (Boeing) conversion. Please note, it's of course possible to increase MTOW on the 757. I belive we can go up to 111tons on some of ours without modifications. Then again, we've got the -535C motors and I would expect a -535E4 engined version to be able to go higher still. Will give you more range most of all, as you'll be bulked-out (as an integrator) at around 25-28 tons.

I appreciate there's a 757 conversion on the market that'll give you 15 AAA positions (same as a 757PF), and therefore a further volumetric advantage.

The A321, however, is much leighter than the 757. We're talking an operating empty weight of 48 vs 60 tons! Sure, the 757 has superior performance over the A321, but carrying around those big fans with a 40k lbs capability is expensive if you don't need it. The A321 gets by with around 27k lbs.

So, if your requirement is to carry around 25 tons for no longer than around 3 hours, the A321 seems to be the better option. For longer sectors, or for sectors where performance is an issue, the 757 would be better.

I've personallly got nothing against Airbus, I'm sure they make fine aeroplanes. However, the deciding factor is not whether I personally like it or not - it's about economics.

Big Al

Airbus has never been much into the freighter market, and there havent't that many A321s on the second-hand market with a low enough price to justify a conversion program. They are starting to become available now, which is why Airbus has geared up and are starting to actively promote them. Hopefully they've listened to us last time we spoke and moved the cargo door from position 1 to 2!

 

[Superpilot92]

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00006712

looks nice

 

[Tomct]

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00006712

looks nice

VERY NICE!!!

 

[EuroWheenie]

Extremely nice, amazing what you can do with a bit of photoshop innit?

Is the -800 available as a freighter at all? I know the -700 is, can't remember reading anything about a -800PF or SF.

Here's our baby. Photo taken during RIAT 2005, ship flown by one of our skippers who's a former RAF Red Arrows display jockey. Impressive bit of flying that was, and many a fine beer was had that day

 

[jdlilfan]

I got this in an email today.

FedEx to invest $2.6 billion to buy, modify up to 90 757-200s

Wednesday September 27, 2006 FedEx said this week it will invest $2.6 billion to acquire and modify up to 90 757-200s to replace its 727-200 freighters.
The FedEx Express airline unit is expected to bring the new aircraft into service from 2008 to 2016.
"Compared to the 727 aircraft, the 757 has a 20% greater payload capacity and has an approximately 25% lower operating cost per pound," FedEx said in a statement. "Replacing the older 727 aircraft with the more fuel efficient and quieter 757 aircraft will have the effect of significantly reducing operating costs over time and provide better aircraft utilization efficiencies."
The company added that the program is expected to have "very positive financial benefits upon completion" and insisted its startup costs "will not materially affect earnings."

 

[time builder]

Under 30 million a piece. Sounds like a pretty good deal.

 

[jetflyersteve]

Crew bus rumors

Ok, the wake turbulence issue is real and separation will impact the inbounds to the sort.

I have heard speculation Memphis may go all wide bodies at midnight. The 757
could do other routes (hubs in EWR, AFW, IND, OAK, LAX) and day sort in MEM.

The staffing demand will still be high even with the 3 to 2 man cockpit change. The reason for the delay in the change of our trip rig is also rumored to be due to the staffing. By the time all the 57's show, the new rigs will be in place so there may be some "balance" to the crew force. We're still going to need a ton of new guys.

The 727 will be around for a while.. The last ones off the line came here only 13 - 14 years ago. There is a lot of life left in them.

 

[DLax85]

The word we got during indoc last month was 727s on the property until 2011-2013.

Given, the 757 acquistion plan is from 2008-2016 it would appear the 727 retirement date may even slip slightly later then that.....which is often the case at FEDEX.

 

[jetflyersteve]

Yes, often the case.

 

[waverider]

I got this in an email today.

FedEx to invest $2.6 billion to buy, modify up to 90 757-200s

Wednesday September 27, 2006 FedEx said this week it will invest $2.6 billion to acquire and modify up to 90 757-200s to replace its 727-200 freighters.
The FedEx Express airline unit is expected to bring the new aircraft into service from 2008 to 2016.
"Compared to the 727 aircraft, the 757 has a 20% greater payload capacity and has an approximately 25% lower operating cost per pound," FedEx said in a statement. "Replacing the older 727 aircraft with the more fuel efficient and quieter 757 aircraft will have the effect of significantly reducing operating costs over time and provide better aircraft utilization efficiencies."
The company added that the program is expected to have "very positive financial benefits upon completion" and insisted its startup costs "will not materially affect earnings."

Interesting. Here's an almost identical release posted on our company website.

FedEx Invests in new Air Fleet


FedEx has announced to spend 2.6 billion dollars for the modernization of its air fleet within the next years. The company intends to buy approximately 90 airplanes of the type Boeing 757-200 and carry out modifications.
The short- and long distance aircrafts will go into service between 2008 and 2016 and replace older Boeing 727-200 models. The new planes can carry about 20 percent more payload, are more fuel efficient and thus create less operating costs. In addition to this the production of greenhouse gas can be reduced. As FedEx estimates the planed investment will not burden profits despite the costs for capital spending.