Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Removing alternate

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
A most commonly misunderstood concept...."alternate"

It is part of a legal flight plan and dispatch release. The term "alternate" is used to describe a suitable airport, based on forecast weather conditions, for flight planning a theoretical diversion. However, it is only an exercise in fuel planning, and has no meaning once enroute.

IT IS ONLY FOR FUEL PLANNING PURPOSES. THE CONCEPT DISAPPEARS AT BRAKE RELEASE.

Once the flight begins, forget about the alternate.....it is a non-entity. In case of diversion, you may land anywhere, even at an airport which is "alternate NA" on the approach plates. Just keep an eye on the weather, but changing a flight plan enroute is only appropriate in case of a re-file or re-dispatch.

This is so friggin misunderstood.

The above-linked ntsb articles are interesting and recommended reading. The "administrator" tried to yank 2 USAir pilots' certificates based on the Part 91 "reckless operation" clause which is the FAA's catch-all. They tried to divert to a nearby airport with 1/4 mile in heavy snow (maybe a bit reckless), then declared "minimum fuel" to cut the line of 12 planes waiting to try the approach.

Don't piss off ATC!!
 
Last edited:
Ganja -- good answer!

Real world example: flying in the southern US in the summertime, it's not uncommon to have that quarter of the continent all have some chance of thunderstorms in all the forecasts. You may have an hour's flight from A to B, but to get an alternate without the chance of thunderstorms you might have another 3 or 4 hours to get there. BUT, the CB's aren't everywhere, so you file what you can & away you go. You get to your destination, only to find it covered with a massive but unmoving CB. Time to go elsewhere. Find someplace clear & desirable (from a perspective of facilities / equipment / accommodating pax / company presence / good pilot lounge / whatever), and go there. If what you'd filed as your alternate is, at that time, ALSO looking at a big lightning show, you discard it from consideration & press on with your decisionmaking process... I've got X fuel on board, and I can get to the following fields with my 0:45 (or whatever your book says) reserve... what's the smartest place to go?

You would NOT tie yourself to keeping fuel to get to your divert AND from there to your filed-but-useless alternate in the tanks! You do what makes best sense at the time... it would be silly to, for instance, restrict your consideration of divert fields to only those that are close enough that you could divert there without burning into the "and get from here to (someplace we aren't going to really go)" fuel.

Alternates are for FILING purposes. Dispatchers also watch them a bit during the course of your flight so that, for instance, if one goes down they can come up with a new gameplan (revise the release, make YYY the alternate instead of XXX, etc). HOWEVER, the filed alternate is IN NO WAY restrictive of your options if you find yourself needing to divert.

As for declaring Emergency Fuel, if you as PIC see yourself as having a critically low fuel state, then by all means declare it. However, if I'm diverting to a field with reasonable weather and I'll get there with my 0+45 reserves (or whatever amount you're required to have overhead the alternate), I wouldn't see any point in declaring emergency fuel nor even min fuel, simply because by the time I get there I couldn't do a SECOND divert to the "filed" alternate.

For the original question, I'll offer this: a release can be revised in flight, and the book I fly with doesn't restrict that removing an alternate can NOT be a revision... so I'd say there's nothing preventing it. For most operations, there wouldn't be an advantage to it, although I can think of one oddball case where it would: operating to a remote destination with a somewhat distant alternate, the destination weather goes from low overcast to clear (& forecast to remain that way) sooner than expected, while the alternate goes from okay to below mins. From a dispatcher's perspective, there might be an advantage to revise the release based on the new conditions (alternate not required) rather than try to formulate a gameplan based on dealing with an alternate that's now unusable... particularly if such a gameplan might require an expensive option like turning back or some such. Not generally a factor in domestic operations, but might be a player going to remote islands or somesuch.
 
rvsm410 said:
Really, please provide the 121 reg that allows the removal of an alternate while in flight or in any other instance where the alternate was required based on the flight planned weather?

And second, why would you want to?
121.631(C) - can amend for close to anything you want. For example, after departure, you can amend to add an alternate (if youve got the gas), delete an alternate (if you can), a new route of flight to calculate if youve got the gas, etc. Notice all those amendments are to determine if youve got the gas to do something, to adhere to 121.639 and 121.645. The only real reg that applies enroute is 121.627, as long as youre not unsafe; you're cool.

Releases arent static, while they apply predeparture, your job, at a 121 domestic or flag operation, must also adhere to current conditions. If those conditions change, 121.627 AND 121.639/.645 require you to amend the release to reflect changing conditions.

I WOULDNT, however, amend to add an MEL or CDL item that has occurred enroute (unless your FOM specifically requires the amendment), since the MEL is advisory only (but it obviously does apply to any subsequent redeparture), crew names, etc. HOWEVER, there have been times where I have been called enroute and asked on the radio if we had added such and such MEL already - and sometimes I have told the crew "dont you remember we did that on your cell at 2215Z? (make up a time that was pre pushback)"

"Oh yeah" :)
 
If you fly under 121 supplemental you must always have an Alternate listed on the release. All other circumstances under which you can amend the release still apply, We will amend to a closer Alt. if WX allows to gain additional hold time at Dest. or to a different Alt. if the wx goes below derived mins at the Alt. on the release
 
An example of when amending the alternate is useful:

Flying to an overwater destination where the weather requires an alternate and is forecast to improve however the a/c can't carry sufficient fuel to get to both the destination AND an alternate.

No problem. Use an in-flight replan. File to the 'alternate' (even if it itself requires an alternate nearby) via a waypoint part way to (desired) destination. Prior to the Point of No Return (PNR, sometimes known as a Point of Safe Diversion for the desired destination) assess the weather. IF it no longer requires an alternate then proceed to the desired destination, otherwise proceed to the originally filed-but-unwanted landing point.
 
Last edited:
Lead Sled said:
That's what those "Fuel Dump" switches are for. :p

Hey don't laugh, 20 years a go there was a newbie FE at Western Airlines who tried to balance fuel in one of their 727s by dumping. Her airline career was short lived.

'Sled

You're busting our balls, aren't ya?
 
ultrarunner said:
"...Cap't, I've got that fuel balanced....you've got 1000 lbs left, 1000 right, and 1000 center..."
I don't think that it got that far out of hand, but it was definately trending in that direction. :eek:

'Sled
 
lithstrip said:
If you fly under 121 supplemental you must always have an Alternate listed on the release. All other circumstances under which you can amend the release still apply, We will amend to a closer Alt. if WX allows to gain additional hold time at Dest. or to a different Alt. if the wx goes below derived mins at the Alt. on the release
Very true. 121 Supps must always have an alternate on the release. How's life up in the tundra?
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom