Removing alternate

[capt. megadeth]

Thanks for the replies. It was a discussion that came about regarding a policy at my company as to when they want you to declare a fuel emergency. Long story. Thanks again.

 

[rvsm410]

Most interested

Yes, you can remove the alternate if it is no longer required.

Really, please provide the 121 reg that allows the removal of an alternate while in flight or in any other instance where the alternate was required based on the flight planned weather?

And second, why would you want to?

 

[FlyingDawg]

Really, please provide the 121 reg that allows the removal of an alternate while in flight or in any other instance where the alternate was required based on the flight planned weather?

And second, why would you want to?

Where in the FAR's does it forbid it?

You might want to remove an alternate when holding and can't get in to destination airport. Instead of diverting to alternate, you might want to go to a hub airport. You might not have enough fuel to continue to hub + 45 minutes + fuel to alternate. By dropping the alternate (weather permitting) you would only need fuel to hub + 45 minutes.

 

[Crosswind79]

I agree with being able to drop the alternate.....I am a CFI and a Dispatcher for a 121 Major and a lot of times you plan a flight with a precautionary alternate only to have a new taf come out. Add to that the fact that your going into DEN, PHL, EWR, and hold fuel becomes very valuable. Drop the alternate and put that fuel into hold.....Makes the pax happier when they actually get to the airport on their ticket too......

 

[igneousy2]

Suppose your going to RSW with an alternate of MIA. You need fuel to RSW + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. If you divert to FLL (change of destination) without dropping MIA as alternate (you might still need it because of 1-2-3 rule at FLL) you will now need fuel to FLL + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. However if diverting to MIA you only need fuel to MIA + 45 minutes.

But in the case where the weather is not requiring an alternate for FLL then the alternate could be dropped requiring only fuel to FLL + 45 minutes. So I say yes you can drop an alternate.

Are you saying that if you divert to FLL (i.e. could not get into RSW) that you must still have enough fuel to get to your alternate?

I don't read that in the regs.

Sec. 121.639

Fuel supply: All domestic operations.

No person may dispatch or take off an airplane unless it has enough fuel--
(a) To fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
(b) Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport (where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
(c) Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption

Once you launch...and then divert...I don't see where it requires you to still be able to make your alternate. Is there another reg that requires this?

Later

 

[FlyingDawg]

If you divert to something other than your alternate and the weather there is less than 1-2-3 or the METAR weather requires an alternate then technically you must have fuel to new destination + fuel to required alternate + 45 min. If you divert to alternate then you only need fuel to alternate + 45 minutes.

I think the following orders will lead you to the same conclusion:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4866.PDF

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4955.PDF

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

A most commonly misunderstood concept...."alternate"

It is part of a legal flight plan and dispatch release. The term "alternate" is used to describe a suitable airport, based on forecast weather conditions, for flight planning a theoretical diversion. However, it is only an exercise in fuel planning, and has no meaning once enroute.

IT IS ONLY FOR FUEL PLANNING PURPOSES. THE CONCEPT DISAPPEARS AT BRAKE RELEASE.

Once the flight begins, forget about the alternate.....it is a non-entity. In case of diversion, you may land anywhere, even at an airport which is "alternate NA" on the approach plates. Just keep an eye on the weather, but changing a flight plan enroute is only appropriate in case of a re-file or re-dispatch.

This is so friggin misunderstood.

The above-linked ntsb articles are interesting and recommended reading. The "administrator" tried to yank 2 USAir pilots' certificates based on the Part 91 "reckless operation" clause which is the FAA's catch-all. They tried to divert to a nearby airport with 1/4 mile in heavy snow (maybe a bit reckless), then declared "minimum fuel" to cut the line of 12 planes waiting to try the approach.

Don't piss off ATC!!

 

[Snoopy58]

Ganja -- good answer!

Real world example: flying in the southern US in the summertime, it's not uncommon to have that quarter of the continent all have some chance of thunderstorms in all the forecasts. You may have an hour's flight from A to B, but to get an alternate without the chance of thunderstorms you might have another 3 or 4 hours to get there. BUT, the CB's aren't everywhere, so you file what you can & away you go. You get to your destination, only to find it covered with a massive but unmoving CB. Time to go elsewhere. Find someplace clear & desirable (from a perspective of facilities / equipment / accommodating pax / company presence / good pilot lounge / whatever), and go there. If what you'd filed as your alternate is, at that time, ALSO looking at a big lightning show, you discard it from consideration & press on with your decisionmaking process... I've got X fuel on board, and I can get to the following fields with my 0:45 (or whatever your book says) reserve... what's the smartest place to go?

You would NOT tie yourself to keeping fuel to get to your divert AND from there to your filed-but-useless alternate in the tanks! You do what makes best sense at the time... it would be silly to, for instance, restrict your consideration of divert fields to only those that are close enough that you could divert there without burning into the "and get from here to (someplace we aren't going to really go)" fuel.

Alternates are for FILING purposes. Dispatchers also watch them a bit during the course of your flight so that, for instance, if one goes down they can come up with a new gameplan (revise the release, make YYY the alternate instead of XXX, etc). HOWEVER, the filed alternate is IN NO WAY restrictive of your options if you find yourself needing to divert.

As for declaring Emergency Fuel, if you as PIC see yourself as having a critically low fuel state, then by all means declare it. However, if I'm diverting to a field with reasonable weather and I'll get there with my 0+45 reserves (or whatever amount you're required to have overhead the alternate), I wouldn't see any point in declaring emergency fuel nor even min fuel, simply because by the time I get there I couldn't do a SECOND divert to the "filed" alternate.

For the original question, I'll offer this: a release can be revised in flight, and the book I fly with doesn't restrict that removing an alternate can NOT be a revision... so I'd say there's nothing preventing it. For most operations, there wouldn't be an advantage to it, although I can think of one oddball case where it would: operating to a remote destination with a somewhat distant alternate, the destination weather goes from low overcast to clear (& forecast to remain that way) sooner than expected, while the alternate goes from okay to below mins. From a dispatcher's perspective, there might be an advantage to revise the release based on the new conditions (alternate not required) rather than try to formulate a gameplan based on dealing with an alternate that's now unusable... particularly if such a gameplan might require an expensive option like turning back or some such. Not generally a factor in domestic operations, but might be a player going to remote islands or somesuch.

 

[dispatchguy]

Really, please provide the 121 reg that allows the removal of an alternate while in flight or in any other instance where the alternate was required based on the flight planned weather?

And second, why would you want to?

121.631(C) - can amend for close to anything you want. For example, after departure, you can amend to add an alternate (if youve got the gas), delete an alternate (if you can), a new route of flight to calculate if youve got the gas, etc. Notice all those amendments are to determine if youve got the gas to do something, to adhere to 121.639 and 121.645. The only real reg that applies enroute is 121.627, as long as youre not unsafe; you're cool.

Releases arent static, while they apply predeparture, your job, at a 121 domestic or flag operation, must also adhere to current conditions. If those conditions change, 121.627 AND 121.639/.645 require you to amend the release to reflect changing conditions.

I WOULDNT, however, amend to add an MEL or CDL item that has occurred enroute (unless your FOM specifically requires the amendment), since the MEL is advisory only (but it obviously does apply to any subsequent redeparture), crew names, etc. HOWEVER, there have been times where I have been called enroute and asked on the radio if we had added such and such MEL already - and sometimes I have told the crew "dont you remember we did that on your cell at 2215Z? (make up a time that was pre pushback)"

"Oh yeah"

 

[lithstrip]

If you fly under 121 supplemental you must always have an Alternate listed on the release. All other circumstances under which you can amend the release still apply, We will amend to a closer Alt. if WX allows to gain additional hold time at Dest. or to a different Alt. if the wx goes below derived mins at the Alt. on the release