Reliability Gulf - Dassault ?

[G100driver]

A plane which, if the autopilot is engaged while the pilot tries to prevent it from behaving badly (i.e. trim runaway), develops a problem that may result in fatalities. That's some fine engineering!
TIS

Hmmmm, I always thought it was SOP to DISENGAUGE the AP before trying to hand fly the airplane. But I guess that is old school these days.

Zero Compromise. That's what Gulfstream means.

TIS

That is a laugh. Have you seen the full line of Gulstream products. They are filled with compromises. Just ask the guys who are flying international in the new Gulfstreams that only have 2 AHARS with no IRS. You cannot tell me that they are not Gulfstreams. Do know how I know? The Gulstream salesman tried to sell us one.

 

[G100driver]

GEX,

I guess I shouldn't be surprised with such a spirited group of aviators amassed here who are loyal to the products they fly. If tomorrow your (or my) company switched aircraft to a Falcon or Gulfstream, I'd bet you a keg of your favorite beer you'd be more than glad to fly it!
2000Flyer

Hey man, even it is a WSCoD I would fly it. Whatever pays the bill brother!!! Amen. This is all academics.

These stories by the G-men are just another lie perpetrated by the man trying to keep a brother down!

 

[gern_blanston]

Gee, that's nice. A plane which, if the autopilot is engaged while the pilot tries to prevent it from behaving badly (i.e. trim runaway), develops a problem that may result in fatalities.

So if the Gulfstream is descending in V/S mode and you just pull back on the yoke, the autopilot doesn't trim against you or disconnect? Interesting. I learn stuff every day.

... one of the reasons it flies the way it does is because it has a magic little box that no one seems to understand the construction or function of that prevents pilots from overcontrolling the plane at high speeds. The Greek accident demonstrates that when that little gem goes inop the result is an airplane with unpredictable, or at least masked, control characteristics.

Al that little box does is to move the position of the pivot on the artificial-feel unit to vary the amount of spring feedback to the controls an inch or two. Hydraulically in the older planes, electrically in the newer ones. And, again, having flown the '2000 with the Q-unit stuck in the high-sensitivity position, I can tell you that absolutely nothing unpredictable happens. There's just slightly less resistance on the controls. Not evenperceptible if you're hand-flying and you're trying to do a smooth job of it. The light comes on, you get your checklist out, and it tells you that things might be a bit more sensitive than normal. The Gulfstream has artificial feel springs, too, doesn't it?

 

[2000flyer]

In addition to the Global we have two Falcon 2000 eASY's and a G-IV. By far, I like the G-IV better than the Falcons. I like it's systems, it's redundancy and rugged reliability, plus, it makes the Falcons seem underpowered. Without experience in both types I don't see how you can validly comment on which one is "better".

Go back and re-read each and every one of my posts. Besides the glib truck comment (go back and re-read the posters reference to a Gulfstream flying like a truck in this thread as well) I never once made any reference, implication or otherwise, any experience whatsoever of having flown a Gulfstream. I'm not shocked by the mud slinging either.

True, compared to the Gulfstream, I'm sure you feel the Falcon is under powered. I"m sure someone flying an F15 feels the Gulfstream is under powered. Whats your freggin point?

 

[semperfido]

Besides the glib truck comment (go back and re-read the posters reference to a Gulfstream flying like a truck in this thread as well)

The gulfstream total package is far superior and if you had the opportunity to operate both (like i have), then you would get it. but if my boss bought a falcon i would love to fly it and my opinion wouldn't change.

 

[GVFlyer]

That is a laugh. Have you seen the full line of Gulstream products. They are filled with compromises. Just ask the guys who are flying international in the new Gulfstreams that only have 2 AHARS with no IRS. You cannot tell me that they are not Gulfstreams. Do know how I know? The Gulstream salesman tried to sell us one.

I know it's not PC, but I don't think any of us think of the Israeli Aircraft Industries aircraft as Gulfstreams. Real Gulfstreams come from Savannah or Beth Page, not Tel Aviv. Flight Test did a closed-loop handling qualities evaluation of the Galaxy before Gulfstream purchased Galaxy Aircraft, Inc. so the guys in Mahogany Row would know what they were buying. The kindest thing we said about it was, "It flys like a Challenger."

I was recently asked by a person considering purchasing a G200, "What makes this a Gulfstream?" The best that I could muster was, "Gulfstream stands behind it."

So if I say Gulfstream I mean G-I, G-II, G-III, G-IV, G300, G350, G400, G450, G500, and the G550.

GV

 

[gern_blanston]

Gulfstream does have a great rep for customer service. And having flown a 'G100' I wouldn't wish it on anyone from a handling point-of-view. And this from an old Westwind II driver. You wanna' talk about an airplane that doesn't handle well... Baby, the IAI 1124B is it!

 

[GEXDriver]

True, compared to the Gulfstream, I'm sure you feel the Falcon is under powered. I"m sure someone flying an F15 feels the Gulfstream is under powered. Whats your freggin point?

My point is that I like flying in the Forties as opposed to flying in the Thirties. I like flying above the North Atlantic Tracks as opposed to being stuck in them. I like being able to top weather and turbulence as opposed to being banged around or having to alter my course by hundreds of miles. I like being able to kick up my speed to M 0.85 or better regardless of altitude if the boss is running late. I like having enough redundancy in systems that if something major breaks in the Third World, I still have enough airplane left to fly it back to the First World to get it fixed. The simple truth is that for a corporate operation like ours the Gulfstream just does every thing better than the Falcon.

 

[G100driver]

G-VFlyer .... do you have 2 handles? You are quoting me as if I responding to your post. Hmmmm, one nice lovable Gulfstream demo pilot (or is that a former Gulfstream demo pilot who now works for an insurance company in MSP area) and the other handle ... well less refined.

Yes I know your opinion about the complete Gulfstream line, but when I go to the web page it still says Gulfstream.

I guess my real gripe is we used to own a G100 (hence the flightinfo name) and were VERY excited when Gulfstream bought out IAI. We were made promises about this fix and that fix on how Gulstream was going to make the Astra/G100 a reliable Gulfstream. In the end that is all we got, empty promises and much more expensive (although more avialable) parts. Our G100 was a POS until the end. Gulfstream did nothing to fix "their" airplane.

I know the "legacy" line is an awesome fleet, but the G100 -G200 is now your line and you must own it ... like or not. If is was not a Gulfstream they would call it a Gulfstream 200, right? Even if it is a total compromise in the Gulfstream tradition.

 

[2000flyer]

My point is that I like flying in the Forties as opposed to flying in the Thirties. I like flying above the North Atlantic Tracks as opposed to being stuck in them. I like being able to top weather and turbulence as opposed to being banged around or having to alter my course by hundreds of miles. I like being able to kick up my speed to M 0.85 or better regardless of altitude if the boss is running late. I like having enough redundancy in systems that if something major breaks in the Third World, I still have enough airplane left to fly it back to the First World to get it fixed. The simple truth is that for a corporate operation like ours the Gulfstream just does every thing better than the Falcon.

GEX, I won't argue with your love of the Gulfstream. I have no doubt you fly a fine machine. But I too fly in the 40s, I fly above the tracks, I'm on top the weather, not banging around in it. If my boss is late, I do .84, a scant few knots difference from your .85 (BTW, I do .84 on ~2000pph total. Whats your number? ). I have system redundency (I know the old arguments on this board so lets not go there). I have never been "stuck" somewhere, though I tend not to go to third world countries.

To be quite honest, today I'd probably be flying a Gulfstream. Our company several times requested literature and demos. Our hangar was built around a GV. Each time the salesman literally said "don't call us, we'll call you." Our owner gave him another chance and was told "I'm too busy to talk this week, I'll call you when I get more time." End of story. I can assure you with a 99% probability that this owner will never darken Savannah's door again. What is humorous, this is our second 2000 in 10 years and the gang in Savannah knows it. We get monthly calls from their sales staff checking our interestes in the Gulfstream line. Go figure...

So, here I am flying a Falcon. It does everything we ask it to do. I can fly a 200nm trip and not have my lunch eaten. I can fly it across the country and across the Atlantic. It does a fantastic job for us. I'm as partial to it as you are to the Gulfstream. The statement best fitting most of this thread is we agree to disagree.

2000Flyer

 

[G4G5]

True, compared to the Gulfstream, I'm sure you feel the Falcon is under powered. I"m sure someone flying an F15 feels the Gulfstream is under powered. Whats your freggin point?

And for someone flying the space shuttle an F15 seems under powered. I have been in a 2000 at max gross and then had to turn the anti ice on at FL230. Then asked by center to take a radar vector because 260 knots and 500 fpm on the VSI doesn't cut it.

Just about every Falcon ever built has required some sort of engine power enhancement. How many times have you seen Gulfstream do it?

I believe that was his point.

With that being said I still like Falcons. The French design a superior product. The wing is an anhedral vs a dihedral on the G's. The fusalage is smooth vs the G's still hand building theirs. I could go on.

I believe the question was reliability. I have worked on both and flown both. I would call it equal, they both do a nice job.

Product support, goes to Gulfstream, this is where the G's really have a tremendous advantage over both Dassault and Bombardier.

 

[GVFlyer]

G-VFlyer .... do you have 2 handles? You are quoting me as if I responding to your post.

No, just firing on a target of opportunity.

Yes I know your opinion about the complete Gulfstream line, but when I go to the web page it still says Gulfstream.

I guess my real gripe is we used to own a G100 (hence the flightinfo name) and were VERY excited when Gulfstream bought out IAI. We were made promises about this fix and that fix on how Gulstream was going to make the Astra/G100 a reliable Gulfstream. In the end that is all we got, empty promises and much more expensive (although more avialable) parts. Our G100 was a POS until the end. Gulfstream did nothing to fix "their" airplane.

I know the "legacy" line is an awesome fleet, but the G100 -G200 is now your line and you must own it ... like or not. If is was not a Gulfstream they would call it a Gulfstream 200, right? Even if it is a total compromise in the Gulfstream tradition.

I don't know... a good friend of mine, Mike R., was put in charge of entry-into-service for the IAI aircraft, did the best job humanly possible, and was fired for his efforts. The first year Gulfstream owned Galaxy total sales were up, but revenues were down because of the cost of supporting the IAI product line.
The Big G definitely is commited to the aircraft and bringing it up to Gulfstream reliability standards, but I think that's still a ways down the road. The G150 with the 12" width extension and the G-III nose will probably be a good aircraft - the wing that's under it was designed for it.

There's a national G150 Roadshow going on now so you'll probably get a chance to see it.

GV

 

[gern_blanston]

I have been in a 2000 at max gross and then had to turn the anti ice on at FL230. Then asked by center to take a radar vector because 260 knots and 500 fpm on the VSI doesn't cut it.

That is the one and only complaint I have about our '2000. With the heats on in the mid-20's, especially at ISA+, the climb rate absolutely comes to a screeching halt. I've been flying contract work in a couple of 2000EX's, and they're much better.

 

[G100driver]

That is the one and only complaint I have about our '2000. With the heats on in the mid-20's, especially at ISA+, the climb rate absolutely comes to a screeching halt. I've been flying contract work in a couple of 2000EX's, and they're much better.

The straight 2000 with anti-ice on kinda flies like it needs to go to a retirement home?

 

[AA717driver]

A friend once said he'd fly a barn door if they paid him $200k a year to do it.

Let's stop this schoolyard bravado. G, DA and BBD all build good airplanes. Some problems exist--that's a fact of life in this business.

If I had my choice, I'd fly a BBJ. The Gulfstream makes me feel like I'm working on a submarine sometimes. I'd take M.78 for 14 hours and a little more elbow room rather than .85 for 11 hours and feeling like I need a can opener to get me out of the plane.

But WTFDIK.TC

 

[gern_blanston]

The straight 2000 with anti-ice on kinda flies like it needs to go to a retirement home?

Indeed it does, Dave.

 

[GVFlyer]

If I had my choice, I'd fly a BBJ. The Gulfstream makes me feel like I'm working on a submarine sometimes. I'd take M.78 for 14 hours and a little more elbow room rather than .85 for 11 hours and feeling like I need a can opener to get me out of the plane.

But WTFDIK.TC

Heresy! (Wait till you see what's coming)

GV

 

[AA717driver]

Heresy! (Wait till you see what's coming)

GV

If you build it, we'll buy three! TC

 

[Senior_Citizen]

This afternoon, after meetings with advisors and the accountant, my friend choose his next jet.

- And the Winner is ............

Gulfstream Aerospace G450

(I'm a Da900 fan :'( )

Why we choose it Against the Da900 EX?

1) Its field performance warrants us full operational capability all 365 day/yr, while the Da900 doesn't warrants this when we need to operate on dirty runaways.

2) Maintenance W/O Worries.

3) Cheaper, Doesn't matter its bigger fuel burn and DOC, because we plan to use it only 400-500 hr/yr, and the 3.5MM$ saved (vs Da900EX) earn enough rates to compensate it.

4) Interior: Roomier, WLan Internet, Tailwind 500.

5) Quality: (Improved on the G450).

6) Is easiest to find crews and ground personnel with experience on the very similar GIV-GIVSP-G400.

7) Exist the open possibility to get an used GIV and to trade it by our plane (the same G200's deal but with an GIV).

We will place our order on few weeks (depends now on our accountant).

When will need an extra Captain then I'll contact the forum with the details (maybe soon, but I'll use a different nick), we could finance the type rating if required, but a large experience (2000+hr) on G-IV's is a condition "sine qua non".

After print the post I still following this thread so hot guys.

Now the Gulfstream Guys won, that doesn't means the Falcons are bad or dangerous plane, no only means that the Gulf was the best choice for our needs.

Again, thanks to every "Driver".

Best Regards.

........ " Senior Citizen "

 

[semperfido]

good choice