Regional Pilots..this is it

[Focker]

Well, it won't be easy.

Freightdog,
I know, it also came up when in the Delta/Comair relations a few years back. Same result. As you can imagine most of the Comair guys would go to the bottom of the Delta list, which makes Delta happy. There's enough fairly senior guys who wouldn't go for it without integration of some kind, Delta not happy. This is a fairly undetailed example, but it's the fundamental problem.

Bottom line: Nobody who gets paid a 40 hr. week to do this has been able to figure it out yet, so I sure don't have the answer.
The Flight Options/ Ratheon merger will be one of the smoother integrations when it's finished, but here you have to similar sized, similar valued companies. And most of all you have two sets of empoyees with similar statures in the aviation world. Equal squirrels after the same nuts. Take Delta/Comair-ASA, very different standing in the airline heirachy. This is why is hasn't happened yet. Even AA/TWA, two "Majors", but a perceived difference in stature, and I thought, the integration reflected it. Someone will argue the difference was financial position of the two companies, but to me, that's how aviation defines stature, it's the same difference. The default thinking of regionals(ok, backup, commuters) who feed majors is very ingrained in my, an everyones mind, and to have them all be one overnight seems to be a concept we aren't ready to snuggle up to........yet.

At 31, I personally believe I'll see it in my aviation career, granted it may be at the end of it. Commuters have evolved to regionals. The increasingly popular 'wholly owned' didn't start as a move toward one seniority list, more to control their unprecedented growth and threat to the 'major'. It makes you scratch your head when all the money goes to the same pot and wonder if there is a better way than shorting yourself with scope laguage, assuming you aren't finding a way to get around it, like we are currently seeing. It's just my opinion, and seems obvious to me there is the chance to be an industry leader here and I believe eventually somebody will think outside the box just enough to take the plunge. The answer isn't easy.

 

[Flt 525]

RJs are not Nationals/Internationals

There has been some outstanding discussion on this page regarding the issue. Some points to ponder--Regional Jets were intended to be "Regional" Jets. But, some very smart management cookie at the big airlines realized they fly like "big" planes, impress the passengers, are less expensive to operate, and can go fly at nice speeds outside the "region."
Commuter pilots blame the aircraft manufacturers for designing the birds, not some smart airline management employee who simply added up the numbers.
Regional pilot salary scale may soon become the norm in the airline industry, but, you can bet that future airline management is not going to continue to pay the big dollars in the future that they are apying now. Sure, a few pilots will make very good money, but, they will be few, and hope they don't get positions of authority in the pilot unions.
Current and future airline management will not be the "I love aviation and flight crews" of the past. The ivory offices will be occuppied by accounting and financial professionals who won't know a 747 from jet-ranger. Bottom line will be what matters in the future.
On the subject of unions, I am a union member and support labor organizations. But, ALPA is one sided and not for all pilots. A real regional pilots organization is needed to protect the employment rights and the future of regional airline flight crews.

 

[Freight Dog]

I'm still wondering why COMAIR and ASA don't at least attempt to merge. If I've missed something, please feel free to correct me.

Secondly, RJ's are here to stay. Yes, they ARE replacing the mainline in most cases which results in fewer mainline jobs, and that is self-evident in who's hiring and who's furloughing.

Finally, a way to cure this disease is for us, regional folks who aspire to move up the ladder, to keep raising the bar when our contracts come up. Bring it up to par with the mainline. Won't happen overnight, but it's a process and it will be written in "Flying the Line III." Of course the management will not go for it, and yes there will have to be sacrifices made - strikes, potentially losing jobs due to shutting down airlines. No doubt about it, but it is our future.

Let's face it... there are 90 seat and coming up on 110 seat RJ's. The management would absolutely love it if they could give those jets to the regionals. I mean, what's the difference between a 90 seat RJ and a DC-9 or F100? 90 seat RJ is more economical, and if flown by us, WAY cheaper labor.

It's up to us to raise the bar, so should the management want to replace B737/MD80/B717/F100 flying with RJ's, they will pay similar pay to RJ crew.

Personally, I think anything over 50 seats should be flown by the mainline, and this is where a strong scope language comes into play. It's up to the management to decide what airplane gets flown by whom, but bottom line - cheap labor should NOT be a deciding factor. As I said, if we keep raising the bar at the regional level, there will be a lot more talk and receptive attitude about merging at the mainline level than there is now. Currently, we are still a minor league in terms of pay, work rules, retirements in the regionals. No wonder they see us approaching them to merge as "an attempted seniority grab." I'm positive they'd be signing a different tune if we were up to par with them.

 

[Flt 525]

Freightdog: I concur with you

I am wondering, though, is there a way to keep from striking, furloughing, and losing jobs? I am not smart enough to come up with a plan (only smart enough to write to a pretty good chat room to try and shake lose some ideas from people smater than I am).

 

[Freight Dog]

Of course there's a way: the management signing on the dotted line when the time comes, and signing the contract that brings similar contracts to what our mainline counterparts have.
The problem is getting them to sign that.

Nobody wants to strike, but if you want the change bad enough - then that's something you'll have to be willing to do, and if necessary never return to that job if the bar is not being raised, or not raised adequately.

 

[Caveman]

Sorry MAK, but you've missed the mark. The RJ and it's pilots are not the problem. In fact they are the only thing propping up (no pun intended) the mainline carriers that use RJ's to feed mainline. Mainlines real problem is the so called low cost carriers that are flying similar equipment but paying their pilots 40-60 cents on the dollar of what a DAL/UAL/USAir pilot makes. How I come I don't hear you questioning their pilots' motives for working for less than the going rate? JetBlue, AirTran, Spirit, SWA, AWA et al are all doing what you do for a lot less money. That's the main reason AA/DAL/NWA/UAL/USAir are struggling and are furloughing. It's competition. The other carriers I mentioned do the same thing you do and the tickets cost less. Why? Because their labor cost is less. How many RJ's combined does SWA/Spirit/JetBlue/AirTran fly? ZERO! (Unless you count the DRJ aka DC9 and the BRJ aka 737). Don't blame the RJ. Blame your major airline counterparts that do what you do for a lot less money.

 

[MAK]

Thanks Caveman...

... for bringing up the low-cost carriers such as JetBlue, SWA, etc.

You are correct that low-cost competitors are taking a bite out of the major's market share. Either mainline narrow-body flying goes to RJ's or gets lost due to competition. The result is the same... less good-paying mainline jobs.

This doesn't change my premise, however. This industry, just as any other industry, will always gravitate towards the lowest costs. As long as cheaper labor is available with the same skills, that is where the work will go.

The question is, are you happy where you're at? If so, then RJ's and low-cost, low-paying jobs are the future of domestic aviation in this country. Decide now if you want a career in aviation or making more money as a plumber. If not, then what are we, as a group, prepared to do about it?

This career, aviation, is what WE, the pilots, make it. As long as there are droves of qualified pilots out there willing to work for the next 25 years under $75k, then that is what the career will become.

Just look at the maritime industry if you want a crystal ball view of where aviation in this country is headed.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Just my .02

Just my .02 cents.

Mak said, "If not, then what are we, as a group, prepared to do about it? "

I believe that our Comair brothers gave it one HECK of a good shot last year during their strike. Although they did not achieve all of the gains they were hoping for, I believe it was a big step towards narrowing the gap between regionals and majors. If all of the groups had the same drive when contract negotiations came due, there would be a lot less whipsawing going on.

Also...

Someone suggested a single seniority list. I dont know if anyone noticed, but part of the Jets4Jobs agreement at US Airways is an unrestricted flowthrough. US Airways mainline will never hire again -- nor will Midatlantic for that matter. The flowthrough language that is included in the agreement is plain and simple.

Participating (in J4J) wholly-owned carrers will create a combined seniority list. They will then be eligible to flow to Midatlantic carrying restricted longevity for pay purposes. Midatlantic then flows to mainline.

Yes, for the time being there will be some stagnation as US Airways (hopefully) recovers, grows, and absorbs its furloughees. Once that period ends, though, there will be one, big, single seniority list from the most junior wholly-owned pilot, to the most senior A330 pilot. The "flow", designed only to keep collateral costs down (i/e flight attendants, gate agents, cleaners, caterers, dispatchers, schedulers... all on regional pay/benefit scales).

Also -- my opinion only -- the TA includes the flexibility for US Airways to operate 465 RJs. Thats a tremendous amount of flying...nearly 5000 pilots worth. If there is any concern at the would-be-participating wholly-owneds... I would not worry about it. The training float alone should be enough to keep pilots flying well in to the agreement and thats IF they only intend to replace Dash-8's 1 for 1 with RJ. I suspect they would like far more than 1 for 1. But, like I said, thats just my opinion.

The good news, I suppose, is that it is entirely voluntary. Each group has been offered the opportunity to participate in J4J. If they turn it down as Mesa has, as Chautqua has, etc... they will get no further US Airways jet flying in their codeshare. Assuming US Airways gets the loan, Midatlantic will just fly that many more aircraft. I would think that the wholly-owneds who have been pursuing both a flowthrough and RJs for so many years would want to get on-board.

Better late than never.

Fraternally,
A furloughed mainline, currently wholly-owned F/O.

 

[sleepy]

Re: A different view...

Perhaps you'd rather hear from a mainline (ML) guy that has actually taken the time to think this through.

This is what I see happening in aviation and our careers (bear with me, please):

First of all, the major airlines (management) LOVE you guys (regional pilots). I don't mean they love you personally (unless something happened on a layover you'd like to share)... it's all business. BTW, guys = guys and gals.

The reason they love you is take a look at your paycheck. See those numbers? Compare those to the numbers of a ML pilot. Yep, the major airlines LOVE you guys.

"That could be one reason. But I think they really like how we open new markets and steal market share from the competition."

Look at it this way (many ML pilots can't). Your typical 50-seat RJ pilot basically performs the same job as a 747 driver. Yes, it's true!! Complicated, high-performance aircraft, crappy weather, money-paying passengers... yes!! It's all there.

Why the pay difference? Hmmmm, most pilots are payed according to the revenue generating capacity of their aircraft. So, a big money-making aircraft like the 747 is going to support a higher salary for its pilot than an RJ. Ok, fair enough?? You get paid according to what you can haul.

"I agree with that, I don't know any other RJ pilots who believe that we should be paid 747 pay. However, on a per seat basis many of us are paid more than a 747 pilot."

Your 50-seat RJ is about half the size of a typical 737... correct?? That means an RJ pilot should be paid about half what a 737 pilot gets paid. Fair enough?? Sure. Does it happen?? Hell freekin' NO!! If you ask me, I'd say something you regional guys probably never hear from a ML pilot: You are grossly underpaid for the job you do. That's why the major airlines LOVE you guys!!

"Yes, some of us are. Some of us have pretty good jobs, and are glad to have them."

Now, here is where we get a little personal (but not personal, understand??) Why are RJ pilots willing to be underpaid?? A few reasons come to mind:

Reason #1: Some of you guys have all the money you need. Ok, let's see a show of hands. Which of you already have everything you ever wanted in life that money could buy?? Big house, fast cars, huge TV, shiny bass boat, Versace suits, comfortable retirement?? C'mon, let's see the hands. Ok, that's 2 of you!!

Reason #2: Who cares about money when you have a fun job?? Let's see the hands. Ok, about 5 of you in the back are holding up a sign that says, "Flying may not be as fun, but it pays better than surfing."

Reason #3: I'm making a career out of the regionals?? Put your hands down if you're over 45!! Ok, that's that.

Reason #4: This is just a stepping stone to the majors?? Ok, it looks like that is just about the rest of you. You are exchanging pay for valuable "turbine time", is that correct?? Pray tell, what do you plan on doing with all that valuable "turbine time"?? Unless you plan on being one of the select few hired at SWA, the answer is very little.

For your "turbine time" to be worth anything, the majors need to be hiring. With ML pilots on furlough, that's going to take a while. Keep building more valuable "turbine time" in the mean time.

The majors are retiring a lot of guys, right?? Big deal. They're also retiring airframes along with them. The majors must be taking delivery of new aircraft, right?? There will be more jobs again as the majors grow, right?? Maybe, maybe not.

Here is the crux of my entire message. How fast do you think the majors will grow when they continue to "farm out" their flying to the regionals?? In other words, the majors (management) don't want you flying for them on the ML, they like you just where you are now, ie, flying for "cheap".

"Like the typical ML pilot you like to blame the RJ for the demise of the profession. What about the discount carriers. SWA, JB, AirTran, and ATA are all flying similar sized equipment for half the pay and benifits of a ML pilot. That is where your jobs are going. Your airline, with its bloated cost structure just can not compete."

You may see the ML scope clauses as some unfair way of protecting a ML pilot's job, but remember - that ML pilot's current job is your FUTURE job. The number #1 way to protect the career of ALL pilots is for RJ drivers to get paid what they deserve and ultimately, keep the number of RJ jobs low, while keeping the number of ML jobs high.

"Scope is the most important part of any labor contract. I think most RJ pilots support strong scope. We need it also."

Unfortunately, we are well on the path of doing the reverse. If the majors continue to shrink, park their narrow-body jets while replacing their routes with RJ's, then you can all count on building that valuable "turbine time" for several years.

" I have plenty of turbine time, and I will probably never get to the ML. They won't be hiring for at least 5 to 6 years. By then I won't be able to afford the pay cut to start over at the bottom of ML. What I care about is making the best of my current situation at my current airline. You should worry about how your airline is going to compete with the discount carriers. I will worry about my career."

 

[MAK]

FurloughedAgain, you're darn right...

... about Comair. That is why I paid my assessment to the Comair strike fund with a smile on my face. Heck, I even sent them money before the assessment became mandatory.

True, they probably didn't get everything they wanted... who does?? But it was a big step in the right direction and hopefully a big boost to those that follow them.

====================

Sleepy,

>>"I will probably never get to the ML. They won't be hiring for at least 5 to 6 years. By then I won't be able to afford the pay cut to start over at the bottom of ML. "<<

You echo what I believe is the growing sentiment among many regional pilots. Your time at the regionals is probably going to be a lot longer than you thought it was going to be when you applied for the job.

>>"What I care about is making the best of my current situation at my current airline."<<

Exactly!!! Airline management has had it too good for too long with the regionals. If they thought they could pay you peanuts forever, they were extremely short-sighted (as usual).

There will come a time in the near future when the bean-counters running the airlines receive their wake-up call and find legions of disconcerted regional pilots demanding significantly more pay and benefits since their jobs are no longer "stepping stones" to the majors, but rather, aviation careers themselves.

Hopefully, this reverses the trend we see unfolding and the majors start expanding and opening their doors to more pilots again.

 

[climbhappy]

mainline vs regional guys

The reason there are alot of us out of work is simple....too much capacity... the airlines parked over 1200 junkers in the desert after 911..source wall street journal...now they're still losing money...UAL and US Air lost 600 million last quarter.. now a new code share agreemment hopes to spark hassle free worldwide travel on one carrier. Well, given that Mid Atlantic air and Midway will be doing all of the new flying...goodbye CC Air..it was nice...hello to a smaller Alleghany and Piedmont as more jets come online... The bloodbath and carnage are just beginning..wait til Jet blue grows another hundred percent and has 120 to 250 planes on line....The big guys are responding by flying stretch versions of 757 and 767 to make more money per leg... that's how they see it. the rjs came along because of demand....many have said they're cheap to operate..I've heard different views...24 RJS put midway under once demand dropped off. cheap to operate c'mon...bundle 300 together to support a fleet of 600 big jets and now you have economies of scale. As soon as you see the big picture you'll quit whining about all this crap about mainline guys and we're just as good...oh my aching butt.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I see there is a lot of confusion about so called low pay at discount airlines.
My second year at AirTran I made over 70K as FO...same as most 10 year RJ Captains made at regional I worked for prior to that. Next Year I will make over 120 as a 3rd year capt. And under current contract most senior guys (12 years service) will make close to 200k.
If you can't live on that, then how can you make it on 250.
Bottom line, at discount carriers we don't fly for free, and there is a lot more to low cost than pilot's salaries.

 

[climbhappy]

airtran wages

goog point.... actually comair i recall had 200 million in net income the year before they were bought. only RJs... one type.. lots of 'em...SWA has proven how to make the numbers work...airtran is the next SWA with jetblue in the rearview. ...i saw where airtrans traffic was up alomost over 20% from year ago... with sound mgt, one type or going that way, happy customers, you can pilots what they want and the shareholders never get pissed ( i.e. stock price) say hello to two dollar, tennesee, and hercules for me