Regional Pilots..this is it

[FR8mastr]

This may be your last chance to stop the predatory tactics of egomaniac ML pilots. They feel all flying is their flying (Dont believe me? ask one!) This issue is everyone's issue. If US air and ALPA push this garbage thru it will set a precedent! Just look into it you will see. To that end we are conducting a Social Gathering at ALPA HQ in DC Tues AUG. 6, at 1030. Your choices are simple, bury your head in the sand admit you are worthless as a pilot and hope for the best, or stand up and demand ALPA follows it's own charter that "all pilots are equal" All are welcome and encouraged to attend 1625 Massachusettes Ave. NW. It is time to put up or shut up!!!

PM me for more info



dj

 

[becket]

Blah Blah blah Blah Blah Waa Waa Waa waa waa.

Duane Woerth's letter to you guys says it all. I won't bother repeating it. Good Luck.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Becket,


Your A JACKASS

 

[canadflyau]

Beckett.... looking at what you fly, why are you even in the regional section of this site.... oh just to be a jerk with posts like that, I guarantee you never read that letter and/or know very little about the subject. It is quite simple to see (even in the letter) there is a perferred pilot group within ALPA

 

[PDTGIMP]

Word up ALG! Y'all have some balls! Just remember your fellow WO regional pilots at PDT are going down witch ya, yo.

My new "Impressions of Excellence" is to not sport any USA gear, like my hat. Plus, it's too bad all ML FA's were around during the civil war and stopped having PMS 25 years ago! Cause they know WO pilots do it better!

HA!

MESA, HAVE PHUN UP IN FAY, JAX AND EVERY OTHER HOLE WE BROKE IN FO' YA.

 

[MAK]

A different view...

Perhaps you'd rather hear from a mainline (ML) guy that has actually taken the time to think this through.

This is what I see happening in aviation and our careers (bear with me, please):

First of all, the major airlines (management) LOVE you guys (regional pilots). I don't mean they love you personally (unless something happened on a layover you'd like to share)... it's all business. BTW, guys = guys and gals.

The reason they love you is take a look at your paycheck. See those numbers? Compare those to the numbers of a ML pilot. Yep, the major airlines LOVE you guys.

Look at it this way (many ML pilots can't). Your typical 50-seat RJ pilot basically performs the same job as a 747 driver. Yes, it's true!! Complicated, high-performance aircraft, crappy weather, money-paying passengers... yes!! It's all there.

Why the pay difference? Hmmmm, most pilots are payed according to the revenue generating capacity of their aircraft. So, a big money-making aircraft like the 747 is going to support a higher salary for its pilot than an RJ. Ok, fair enough?? You get paid according to what you can haul.

Your 50-seat RJ is about half the size of a typical 737... correct?? That means an RJ pilot should be paid about half what a 737 pilot gets paid. Fair enough?? Sure. Does it happen?? Hell freekin' NO!! If you ask me, I'd say something you regional guys probably never hear from a ML pilot: You are grossly underpaid for the job you do. That's why the major airlines LOVE you guys!!

Now, here is where we get a little personal (but not personal, understand??) Why are RJ pilots willing to be underpaid?? A few reasons come to mind:

Reason #1: Some of you guys have all the money you need. Ok, let's see a show of hands. Which of you already have everything you ever wanted in life that money could buy?? Big house, fast cars, huge TV, shiny bass boat, Versace suits, comfortable retirement?? C'mon, let's see the hands. Ok, that's 2 of you!!

Reason #2: Who cares about money when you have a fun job?? Let's see the hands. Ok, about 5 of you in the back are holding up a sign that says, "Flying may not be as fun, but it pays better than surfing."

Reason #3: I'm making a career out of the regionals?? Put your hands down if you're over 45!! Ok, that's that.

Reason #4: This is just a stepping stone to the majors?? Ok, it looks like that is just about the rest of you. You are exchanging pay for valuable "turbine time", is that correct?? Pray tell, what do you plan on doing with all that valuable "turbine time"?? Unless you plan on being one of the select few hired at SWA, the answer is very little.

For your "turbine time" to be worth anything, the majors need to be hiring. With ML pilots on furlough, that's going to take a while. Keep building more valuable "turbine time" in the mean time.

The majors are retiring a lot of guys, right?? Big deal. They're also retiring airframes along with them. The majors must be taking delivery of new aircraft, right?? There will be more jobs again as the majors grow, right?? Maybe, maybe not.

Here is the crux of my entire message. How fast do you think the majors will grow when they continue to "farm out" their flying to the regionals?? In other words, the majors (management) don't want you flying for them on the ML, they like you just where you are now, ie, flying for "cheap".

You may see the ML scope clauses as some unfair way of protecting a ML pilot's job, but remember - that ML pilot's current job is your FUTURE job. The number #1 way to protect the career of ALL pilots is for RJ drivers to get paid what they deserve and ultimately, keep the number of RJ jobs low, while keeping the number of ML jobs high.

Unfortunately, we are well on the path of doing the reverse. If the majors continue to shrink, park their narrow-body jets while replacing their routes with RJ's, then you can all count on building that valuable "turbine time" for several years.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Finally,
Thank you, at least one mainline guy reads the writing on the wall.
This needs to be carried a few steps further:
1- Mainline PILOTs need to invite/welcome regional pilots into the fold.
2- Stop thinking that regional pilots want their jobs.
3-Work to raise regional wages to discourage managment from taking
mainline flying to regional partners.
Regional wages include mechanics, rampers CSR's ect.
these folks outnumber us at least 5-10 to 1, and their pay scales are
directly reflected in the cost to produce the service.
Think about all of the costs related to running an airline, the larger the spread
of costs, the stronger the urge to move towards the low cost option.
I do not worry about my job, but I worry about yours!
ola
PBR(CRJ)

 

[Freight Dog]

AMEN MAK!

 

[bobbysamd]

RJ v. mainline debate

Great post from MAK. It finally puts this issue, which I've tried very hard to understand during the past year, into points that I understand.

Also, good expansion on those points from PBRstreetgang.

Had my career progressed, I probably would have fallen under Reason #3. I knew from the moment I considered a career change to aviation that I would never be mainline meat (I still applied to United because I knew a retired captain and had taken the FEX written - it was worth a shot, anyway).

Not that I am any kind of expert, but I do have opinions. My .02 is we'll see the majors outsourcing to regionals as vendors for more and more shorter-haul mainline flying, which could abrogate flow-through agreements up and down. Hasn't American pulled that? Bringing in some vendor for short hauls while AEX pilots are on furlough? That turns my stomach in light of seeing furloughees not working and needing WIA assistance to get work. Therefore, I agree with PBRstreetgang's three reasons in his posts.

Even if regional pilots are making enough money to buy the house, boat and Versace suits, they're still not paid commensurate with the responsibility. I don't care if they're flying regional jets or 1900s. The 1900, by the way, is a great example. I heard once that a 1900 can make money with just two paying pax. How about giving some of that to the crew, especially poor, starving, underpaid, first-year FOs?

Once again, thanks for the excellent and illuminating posts.

 

[Focker]

Darn close Mak

Mak, I like everything you say, but I would add to the last part.

Combine seniority list, all new hires at the Major(Specifically here, Delta and U.S. Air) start in the RJ. Pay has to be parity on scale as you mentioned. Now this allows ML to fly and RJ anywhere anytime a 737/MD80 ain't working. No scope needed. ML is the whole operation, heck they already own the regional anyway, it all goes into the same pot.

Now I now the can of worms I openend with my second sentence, and the solution won't be easy, but we are trending that way. History will repeat itself and the 90-100 seat aircraft will resurface.

Your point about getting the RJ guys to continue to want the major to exist so they can be rich someday too is fair enough, but don't let the Leo Mullins have their cake and eat it too. Leo, at Delta, loves what's going in right now, as you said. If the RJ guys were paid parity on scale, we'd probably still have scope issues. I don't know how you combine these seniority lists, somebody will be pissed, somebody will get screwed, but then at least Leo(and the others) can have their cake, but you would all get to eat it.

I mention Delta, because I believe they are the most set up to do it tomorrow. If the did this, which they won't, many of the others would be left in the just at their ability to operate more efficiently across the board.

Would I care if I started in an RJ when the "new Delta" hired me, heck no. I also wouldn't care if I never got farther than a retiring captain on a 737. Would I care that all the 1000/100 Comair/ASA new hires would now be above me in seniority, maybe, but I'd get over it while I was out fishing on my flashy bass boat. Good topic.
Hope we all have good paying jobs in the end.

 

[bobbysamd]

Re: Darn close Mak

Hope we all have good paying jobs in the end.

And can laugh all the way to the bank!

 

[ch47fe]

PBR "StreetGang" Love the name

I wonder if many others here know the origin.

"50 cal, 50cal!!....Were takin' fire from the treeline..."

Napalm in the trees....next baby. That flick acutally brainwashed me to go into US Army aviation. I miss it.

Sorry This wasn't realated to the post. It's good to take a break in a heated thread everyonce in awhile.

Crap on the greedy Airline mgmt!! Those bastages!!!

 

[ksus]

Hey MAK
I quess you builded you "Turbine Time" in the "military"
did you surpass the regionals , straight to the majors?
I believe you should start thanking everybody in this board
for their contribution to your flight "turbine time! Get it!
Fly safe!

 

[Anaconda]

PBR...

i've been sitting here for the last 15 minutes going over and over in my head if that was from the movie...i was pretty sure it was...i almost wrote "pbr" until i saw your post ch47. and yeah, it almost brainwashed me too...what a wakeup i got!

i've seen "redux" and to be honest i didn't see what the big deal was. i felt the shorter version was better, more streamlined. anyone else agree?

 

[Freight Dog]

Good idea Focker.

But how do you get the management to sign off on the idea of integrating the seniority lists? APA tried it at AMR, and they got laughed out of the building...

 

[Focker]

Well, it won't be easy.

Freightdog,
I know, it also came up when in the Delta/Comair relations a few years back. Same result. As you can imagine most of the Comair guys would go to the bottom of the Delta list, which makes Delta happy. There's enough fairly senior guys who wouldn't go for it without integration of some kind, Delta not happy. This is a fairly undetailed example, but it's the fundamental problem.

Bottom line: Nobody who gets paid a 40 hr. week to do this has been able to figure it out yet, so I sure don't have the answer.
The Flight Options/ Ratheon merger will be one of the smoother integrations when it's finished, but here you have to similar sized, similar valued companies. And most of all you have two sets of empoyees with similar statures in the aviation world. Equal squirrels after the same nuts. Take Delta/Comair-ASA, very different standing in the airline heirachy. This is why is hasn't happened yet. Even AA/TWA, two "Majors", but a perceived difference in stature, and I thought, the integration reflected it. Someone will argue the difference was financial position of the two companies, but to me, that's how aviation defines stature, it's the same difference. The default thinking of regionals(ok, backup, commuters) who feed majors is very ingrained in my, an everyones mind, and to have them all be one overnight seems to be a concept we aren't ready to snuggle up to........yet.

At 31, I personally believe I'll see it in my aviation career, granted it may be at the end of it. Commuters have evolved to regionals. The increasingly popular 'wholly owned' didn't start as a move toward one seniority list, more to control their unprecedented growth and threat to the 'major'. It makes you scratch your head when all the money goes to the same pot and wonder if there is a better way than shorting yourself with scope laguage, assuming you aren't finding a way to get around it, like we are currently seeing. It's just my opinion, and seems obvious to me there is the chance to be an industry leader here and I believe eventually somebody will think outside the box just enough to take the plunge. The answer isn't easy.

 

[Flt 525]

RJs are not Nationals/Internationals

There has been some outstanding discussion on this page regarding the issue. Some points to ponder--Regional Jets were intended to be "Regional" Jets. But, some very smart management cookie at the big airlines realized they fly like "big" planes, impress the passengers, are less expensive to operate, and can go fly at nice speeds outside the "region."
Commuter pilots blame the aircraft manufacturers for designing the birds, not some smart airline management employee who simply added up the numbers.
Regional pilot salary scale may soon become the norm in the airline industry, but, you can bet that future airline management is not going to continue to pay the big dollars in the future that they are apying now. Sure, a few pilots will make very good money, but, they will be few, and hope they don't get positions of authority in the pilot unions.
Current and future airline management will not be the "I love aviation and flight crews" of the past. The ivory offices will be occuppied by accounting and financial professionals who won't know a 747 from jet-ranger. Bottom line will be what matters in the future.
On the subject of unions, I am a union member and support labor organizations. But, ALPA is one sided and not for all pilots. A real regional pilots organization is needed to protect the employment rights and the future of regional airline flight crews.

 

[Freight Dog]

I'm still wondering why COMAIR and ASA don't at least attempt to merge. If I've missed something, please feel free to correct me.

Secondly, RJ's are here to stay. Yes, they ARE replacing the mainline in most cases which results in fewer mainline jobs, and that is self-evident in who's hiring and who's furloughing.

Finally, a way to cure this disease is for us, regional folks who aspire to move up the ladder, to keep raising the bar when our contracts come up. Bring it up to par with the mainline. Won't happen overnight, but it's a process and it will be written in "Flying the Line III." Of course the management will not go for it, and yes there will have to be sacrifices made - strikes, potentially losing jobs due to shutting down airlines. No doubt about it, but it is our future.

Let's face it... there are 90 seat and coming up on 110 seat RJ's. The management would absolutely love it if they could give those jets to the regionals. I mean, what's the difference between a 90 seat RJ and a DC-9 or F100? 90 seat RJ is more economical, and if flown by us, WAY cheaper labor.

It's up to us to raise the bar, so should the management want to replace B737/MD80/B717/F100 flying with RJ's, they will pay similar pay to RJ crew.

Personally, I think anything over 50 seats should be flown by the mainline, and this is where a strong scope language comes into play. It's up to the management to decide what airplane gets flown by whom, but bottom line - cheap labor should NOT be a deciding factor. As I said, if we keep raising the bar at the regional level, there will be a lot more talk and receptive attitude about merging at the mainline level than there is now. Currently, we are still a minor league in terms of pay, work rules, retirements in the regionals. No wonder they see us approaching them to merge as "an attempted seniority grab." I'm positive they'd be signing a different tune if we were up to par with them.

 

[Flt 525]

Freightdog: I concur with you

I am wondering, though, is there a way to keep from striking, furloughing, and losing jobs? I am not smart enough to come up with a plan (only smart enough to write to a pretty good chat room to try and shake lose some ideas from people smater than I am).

 

[Freight Dog]

Of course there's a way: the management signing on the dotted line when the time comes, and signing the contract that brings similar contracts to what our mainline counterparts have.
The problem is getting them to sign that.

Nobody wants to strike, but if you want the change bad enough - then that's something you'll have to be willing to do, and if necessary never return to that job if the bar is not being raised, or not raised adequately.