regional pay 10 years ago

[banned username 2]

a couple more:
10-15 years ago...what times were people hired with for there first regional? Total and multi ect.. personal examples would be great

When the gulfwar was going on and the economy was bad..were the majors and regionals pilots asked for concessions?

What kind of furlough #'s existed back then at the various airlines?

Typical MINIMUMS were 1500 TT / 300-500 Multi. Competitive times were closer to 2500 TT / 1000 Multi. These times were Beech 1900 F/O's.

There were many pilots out of work. Many majors had pilots on furlough and several airlines had gone under (Eastern, PanAm, etc.)

I think this downturn may be a bit worse than the early 90's. I personally think this one will last longer. Back in the early 90's there weren't RJ's picking up the majors flying. I think you will see the regionals expand further and the majors contract further. There will be a LOT of pilots making careers at the regional level (and at regional pay).

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring quals

Typical MINIMUMS were 1500 TT / 300-500 Multi. Competitive times were closer to 2500 TT / 1000 Multi. These times were Beech 1900 F/O's.

There were many pilots out of work. Many majors had pilots on furlough and several airlines had gone under (Eastern, PanAm, etc.)

I think this downturn may be a bit worse than the early 90's. I personally think this one will last longer. Back in the early 90's there weren't RJ's picking up the majors flying. I think you will see the regionals expand further and the majors contract further. There will be a LOT of pilots making careers at the regional level (and at regional pay).

Ditto to every point Falcon Capt. made. Many commuters also asked for the ATP.

I experienced those times first-hand. I had primarily the quals you see at the left when I was looking for commuter (regional) jobs. I still tend to think along the lines of early '90s mins when I'm asked what is needed to get on with regionals these days. When I started reading this board two years ago, people were whining about needing 1000-200, or ever less multi, to get on with a regional. I thought they had it made. Compare it to twelve-thirteen years ago. Before that, commuter mins were something like 3000-1000.

 

[jbDC9]

oops!

I was a MESA newhire in the fall of 1990, we started out at 5.6CENTS per mile, on lines that averaged 16000 miles a month. that's $10752 per year. No PFT and pretty good training. Except for the pay, I had no real complaints against Larry and Company. I worked four, 1/2 days a week and was home every night. If you did your job, and were based at an outstation, life was almost completely seperate from company hassle.

Ya know, I never was very good at that math stuff.... you are correct, 5.6 cents or .056 dollars per mile. My bad. Either way it added up to a pretty crappy paycheck. I also tend to agree with the rest of your post, other than the pay I had a pretty good time there, not counting the 10 months based in Rock Springs... woof! The only good thing about that dump was Mike's Astro Lounge downtown. Being a senior FO in Durango was pretty sweet gig though. And I really hated the fact that they'd short staff the outstations and have us throw bags... I recall in Carlsbad, NM they had a pregnant agent working and she couldn't touch the bags; the FO and I had to load the bags, tidy up the cabin and load the pax while she stood around doing not much of anything... I know they can't have a full UAL sized ground crew in a small town, but to have a pregnant chick there, WTF?

 

[metrodriver]

Not much has changed over the last 10-15 years. Salaries have been adjusted for inflation. then you made 1000.- a month, now it's 1600.-. In 1990 you could buy a very nice car for 15000.-, now that same one will run you around 25000.-. A postage stamp was 24 cents, now they are 37. PFT is coming back slowly, and the app fees are already here. Not much has changed, and if you look at the size of equipment (from 19 seats to 50) maybe we have gone backwards, but on the other hand you have autopilots, fms, pretty good a/c and a few other gadgets to make life a little easier. No more hand flying for 8 hrs a day making 9 landings and putting in 15 hrs of duty

 

[I.P. Freley]

I dunno, Metrodriver, it seems to me that things have improved somewhat... We're not just keeping pace, we've actually outpaced the economy by a little

I just typed in "inflation" on my browser, and after cross-checking a few inflation calculators, it appears that the inflation rate between 1990 and 2003 is 40%, give or take a percentage point.

From what I've read on this thread, an "average" FO would have made something between 10 and 15K in the early 90's. I think it's fair to say that an "average" FO makes about 20-24 these days, which is a fairly significant jump. Throw in the 2nd/3rd/4th year FO's at some of the bigger companies that pay over 30 (some over 40, even), and that's a very big jump indeed. On the bottom end, that's a 100% increase.

Throw the Captains in the mix, and now we're looking at a few people having mentioned $25k. Adjust that upwards by 40%, and now you're at $35k. With the exception of first or second-year 19-seat captains, I don't think that anyone is making that little in the left seat at most regionals (why do I think that someone is now going to look into Mesa's new payscale and prove me wrong?).

I'm not saying that we're paid what we are "worth", but it looks like we are all better off than we would have been 10-15 years ago, even taking inflation into account... Though of course we are, for the most part, flying bigger equipment on average, so perhaps we haven't improved that much after all!

Here's a question... Did anyone pay per diem back in the olden days, errrr, about 15 years ago?

 

[I.P. Freley]

>>>No more hand flying for 8 hrs a day making 9 landings and putting in 15 hrs of duty<<<

Oh, almost forgot, I think I am going to have to disagree with THIS... I remember more than a few 10-leg days in my time flying 1900's! Only two years ago but it seems like a century with what's happened in the interim...

 

[Airpiraterob]

remember what it gets you....

theres a little financial book that equates the present dollar values to past dollar values. example...a new nice volvo in 1979 cost you something around $3500. a chevy of some kind a bit less. now its how much? helluva lot more ill tell you that.

so what was $10 an hour in the late 80's likely to get you then and whats its equavilancy now? if i had that little book id look it up. but i cant right now. im havving enough trouble finding gas money to use to travel to the library and look it up for free....being newly furloughed and all.....goddammit.

 

[jarhead]

You have a computer...........look it up on the Internet. Lots of inflation calculators there. Whay waste gas going to the library?

 

[I.P. Freley]

"a new nice volvo in 1979 cost you something around $3500. a chevy of some kind a bit less."

Rose-colored glasses, perhaps?.

My parents' Chevy Monte Carlo cost more than $3500, and that was in 1972.

A Monte Carlo in 1979, by comparison, couldn't be had for under $5500, and the top-line model based at $6500.

Not to mention that a Volvo was not what most people would have considered "nice" in 1979, no matter how much it cost. Volvos of the time are square, slow, and dorky. It is only much more recently (latter half of the 80's and on) that they have become status cars, and later still that they were legitimately considered "luxury" cars.

A bit off-topic, I know, but it's just as easy to get this stuff right as it is to get it wrong.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Bra:

Some answers to your questions:

July 1988 WestAir new hire on the EMB-110
1900 total, 163 Muliti

Back then they counted multi instructor time as double so that helped a little. WestAir was one of the ones that pretty much required an ATP as well.

Off the top of my head the pay was right around $12,500 first year, but upgrades came in the 6 to 9 month range and it went up to $22,000/year as a first year captain. The Bae-146 Captains were over $50,000 per year. One EMB-120 check airman pulled in $75,000 with overtime.

Fast forward to 1991 for the second answer. Again this is off the top of my head so it isn't precise.

USAirways furloughed close to 750 by late summer early fall 1991. They called back more than half within 6 months. The other 302 stayed out until October 1998.

TWA furloughed in 1991, somewhere in the 200 to 300 range.

Northwest furloughed something around 200, maybe less. They got a few of them jobs as cruisers at KLM.

American didn't furlough until 1993 then they had about 600 guys on the street until 1996.

United did not furlough but they did accept leaves without pay.

Not sure about the rest.

Concessions:

USAirways signed a concessionary contract in 92 or 93. Most of the concessions were in the form of duty and trip rig give backs and other similar issues that created the need to work about two to three more days per month.

TWA pilots were faced with a lot. They voluntarily dropped down to 65 hour months to prevent further furloughs. I remember running into a 15 year TWA 767 F.O. in the mid 90s who told me he only made in the $75,000 per year range. Yikes

United completed their famous ESOP in the mid 90s and they took some cuts ( or maybe lack of increases ) to pay for it.

Continental already had horrible pay scales and benefits thanks to multiple bankrupties and Frank Lorenzo.

As others have said, it was bad, but this time is worse.

Typhoonpilot

 

[jetdriven]

... but on the other hand you have autopilots, fms, pretty good a/c and a few other gadgets to make life a little easier. No more hand flying for 8 hrs a day making 9 landings and putting in 15 hrs of duty

My line for the past 6 months is 7.7 hours of credit, 11 hour duty day, and 7 legs. But I have 33 hours in 7 and 14 days off. Some of the PIT lines are 11 legs and 15 hour duty day. this is on the 1900 of course.

The Captain I have now says his dad worked for Air Midwest back in 1985. Back then the Metro and Saab captins made like 35-40K. IN 1985!!

 

[metrodriver]

I know there are a few of us still flying 19 seat turboprops without the fancy stuff making long days. It seems though that the rest flying the replacement jets have it quite a lot easier with all the fancy equipment installed, fewer legs and better equipped airports. Most carriers have already parked the turboprops with 19 or 30 seats (S340, SA227, B1900, EMB120), did the salary also almost double (coming from a 30 seater) or tripple (coming from a 19 seater) when you guys took the seat in the replacement jet? Didn't think so. Should it? I do think so. If you're lucky you just got a few extra pennies to fly something with all that fancy stuff. So I think this is going backwards

jetdriven: a couple of years ago I flew a metro for a commuter where our longest day had 9 landings in 7:55 hrs blocktime (only feasible without a cloud in the sky and some good luck with atc). Get up at 0400 in the morning for a 0600 departure, be back home around 7pm. Most flying on one day once was 10.5 hrs

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FDJ

Guess I'm not surprized that you would steet the thread to an rjdc debate. I'd suggest that be left in the courts, as it's been discussed ad nausium on these, and other boards.

Jar,

I'm sorry, I reread my post, and didn't notice where I mentioned the rjdc. Perhaps you could refresh my memory?

 

[jarhead]

FDJ

You are correct sir. You did not specifically mention the RJDC.

I made an inference from your statement; "If there's one thing I have learned from these boards it's that ALPA has terribly harmed the careers of regional pilots".

I too, use sarcasm from time to time, and from many of your other well presented arguments on these boards, I thought that is what you were implying. My apologies if that was an incorrect inference of mine.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

No need for apology, but in this case, I was not referring to the rjdc. Instead, I was responding to countless regional guys on this forum who blame ALPA for all their problems, neglecting the fact that most are far better under ALPA negotiated contracts than they were before.

While ALPA is not a miracle worker, I do tire of hearing them take all the blame, but be given none of the credit.

However, this perhaps is not the thread for such a debate, and I have tried to stay clear of arguments for the last few weeks, so maybe I should have kept quiet!