regional guy trying to learn about fractional world

[hydrarkt]

The best thing in aviation? Come on man better than UPS, Fed Ex, SWA, , and JBLU?

I'll give you UPS, FedEx and SWA. But I know of 2 NJA pilots who have been hired at JetBlue and turned it down. I wouldn't leave NetJets for Jetblue.

 

[j31flyer]

I'll give you UPS, FedEx and SWA. But I know of 2 NJA pilots who have been hired at JetBlue and turned it down. I wouldn't leave NetJets for Jetblue.

AS214, I really crunched the numbers before I left my RJ CA position to go to NJA rather than trying to work another year to get the 1,000 PIC to compete with 10,000 other pilots trying to work at FEX. I have several friends at FEX and SWA. Looking at someone who lives in DFW, the best thing is NJA. DFW is far from an expensive place to live. It is one of the best places to live for your money. SWA will cost $8K to get the type and it all starts about the same as NJA. All of these companies require 1000 PIC. While you are trying to get that, you are eating seniority at NJA during one of its largest times of growth. I seriously doubt it will take more than 2 years to upgrade going by my numbers. Taking the fact they have an excellent 401K, full medical (i was paying $300/mo at my last company), and no more commuting (no hotel/crash pad, eating or traveling expenses) then you can stick it right next to a FEX contract and it will be within $5000-8000/yr. Also at FEX you can be gone up to 12 days at a time where at NJA you are not. NJA is certainly better than JB. But of all of the companies you mentioned, FEX is the best in terms of compensation and financial stability to compare NJA to. So yes, NJA is that good!! Do the research and the math.

 

[hydrarkt]

. I seriously doubt it will take more than 2 years to upgrade going by my numbers. .

I don't see upgrades in 2 years. I just finished a tour with a 4 year FO. As of last week, he could have held a Captain's slot on the 400xp. He didn't bid that POS and is waiting for the XL/XLS which he should get soon.
I would realistically expect almost 4 years to make Captain at NJA.

 

[netjetwife]

Hydrarkt, my husband tells pilots to count on upgrades taking 5 years. He is very much "in the know" and I trust what he says. Isn't it better to be pleasantly surprised, rather than sorely disappointed, especially when making financial decisions? It's prudent to plan for the worst.

FO wages are still a disgrace, even at NJA. It is my hope that the other frac pilots will be able to change that injustice when they go to the bargaining table. Yes, I'm thinking positively, here, but with good reason. One good turn deserves another, so please take up where the NJ pilots were forced to leave the field of battle.

Working together, frac pilots can change the industry--and the lives of all their families.

 

[h25b]

Hydrarkt, my husband tells pilots to count on upgrades taking 5 years. He is very much "in the know" and I trust what he says. Isn't it better to be pleasantly surprised, rather than sorely disappointed, especially when making financial decisions? It's prudent to plan for the worst.

FO wages are still a disgrace, even at NJA. It is my hope that the other frac pilots will be able to change that injustice when they go to the bargaining table.

Good Gawd !!! A post from netjetwife that I almost entirely agree with !!

"Best thing in aviation ???" This must be a joke. Lets see shall we ?

1. Something like 180 RON's/yr. on the 7/7 schedule.
2. Getting to live in one of 5 horrible domiciles that you can't choose. (can't wait to see what type of housing 47K gets you in PBI...)
3. Eating Rudy's Catering almost exclusively.
4. Creating a "butt-mark" in almost every Signature Flight Support recliner.

There are instances where fractional ownerrship is more beneficial to a corporation then out right ownership.

Welcome to the world of a free market society. If there wasn't something to this frac thing then it would have faded away a long time ago.

Somewhat true, but if anyone with half a brain crunches the numbers they would find that your typical NetJet "owner" is one who chooses the fractional route more for convenience than sound financial decision making. The cost structure at NetJets these days has narrowed the margin between those that would be better off to charter and those that should consider outright ownership.

Beechjet Pricing @ Netjets
$812,500 (1/8 Acquisition) $11,640 (Monthly Management Fee) $1,554 (Occupied Hourly Fee)

The above represents the costs of flying a Beechjet 100 hrs./yr. so excluding the acquisition cost you're looking at paying $2950.80/hr. to fly a Beechjet !!! At 200 hrs./yr. it would be roughly $500/hr. cheaper to just own your own. (Assuming $250,000/yr. fixed annual cost and around $1250/hr. DOC)

Bottom line, one could argue that NetJets might be a way to go for someone wanting to fly 100 to maybe as much as 200 hrs./yr. Beyond that they should definately have their own bird. But then again, there are likely many fractional owners that have already tried to own their own by hiring some idiot at 45K/yr. to manage their airplane, watched them totally "F" it up, get soured by the whole experience and then book over to NetJets to purchase a share.

This is just a long winded explanation of why many of the NetJets owners are not with NJA because they are spending the wisest dollar.

 

[buttercup]

AS214, I really crunched the numbers before I left my RJ CA position to go to NJA rather than trying to work another year to get the 1,000 PIC to compete with 10,000 other pilots trying to work at FEX. I have several friends at FEX and SWA. Looking at someone who lives in DFW, the best thing is NJA. DFW is far from an expensive place to live. It is one of the best places to live for your money. SWA will cost $8K to get the type and it all starts about the same as NJA. All of these companies require 1000 PIC. While you are trying to get that, you are eating seniority at NJA during one of its largest times of growth. I seriously doubt it will take more than 2 years to upgrade going by my numbers. Taking the fact they have an excellent 401K, full medical (i was paying $300/mo at my last company), and no more commuting (no hotel/crash pad, eating or traveling expenses) then you can stick it right next to a FEX contract and it will be within $5000-8000/yr. Also at FEX you can be gone up to 12 days at a time where at NJA you are not. NJA is certainly better than JB. But of all of the companies you mentioned, FEX is the best in terms of compensation and financial stability to compare NJA to. So yes, NJA is that good!! Do the research and the math.

J31,

First of all I have alot of respect for you.you are doing much more research than the average joe looking for a job. The only way I could see NJA being better than any of the aforementioned jobs is if you live in a place that doesnt have a Major airline base AND is low cost of living. My take is NJA is better than any regional but worse than any Major . I havent crunched the numbers but I can assure you Netjets' wife husband has much more accurate info on what a realistic timeframe would be. He says five years and has access to much union info. I believe his timeframe. At SWA seniority means something. The guys at the top of SWA get 18-19 days off per month. 7 on 7 off wont do that for you. If family is a bigger priority in your life than flying which it should be you wont like 7 on 7 off. At DAL based with SWA youll have the ability to eventually bid days turns,3 days, 2 days, etc. Much more conducive to family life and you wont have to commute. Ive found in this industry people have a tendency to be intellectually dishonest . When a person inquires about working at a certain company the person who works there and is giving him the info. in regards to the company has a tendency to glorify it and not tell both sides of the story. SWA and Netjets upgrades will be about the same timeframe for new-hires. I wish you well in all your endeavors and sure you will do well. Just get the REALISTIC story from everyone and make your decision accordingly. I've flown with many an F.O. who have had to re-mortgage their house or make life altering decisions due to a financial situation that wasnt as rosy, or an upgrade that wasnt as quick as told in the initial interview process. Good Luck!!

 

[buttercup]

Good Gawd !!! A post from netjetwife that I almost entirely agree with !!

"Best thing in aviation ???" This must be a joke. Lets see shall we ?

1. Something like 180 RON's/yr. on the 7/7 schedule.
2. Getting to live in one of 5 horrible domiciles that you can't choose. (can't wait to see what type of housing 47K gets you in PBI...)
3. Eating Rudy's Catering almost exclusively.
4. Creating a "butt-mark" in almost every Signature Flight Support recliner.



Somewhat true, but if anyone with half a brain crunches the numbers they would find that your typical NetJet "owner" is one who chooses the fractional route more for convenience than sound financial decision making. The cost structure at NetJets these days has narrowed the margin between those that would be better off to charter and those that should consider outright ownership.

Beechjet Pricing @ Netjets
$812,500 (1/8 Acquisition) $11,640 (Monthly Management Fee) $1,554 (Occupied Hourly Fee)

The above represents the costs of flying a Beechjet 100 hrs./yr. so excluding the acquisition cost you're looking at paying $2950.80/hr. to fly a Beechjet !!!

No kidding. People will tell themselves anything to avoid facing the truth.

 

[buttercup]

AS214, I really crunched the numbers before I left my RJ CA position to go to NJA rather than trying to work another year to get the 1,000 PIC to compete with 10,000 other pilots trying to work at FEX. I have several friends at FEX and SWA. Looking at someone who lives in DFW, the best thing is NJA. DFW is far from an expensive place to live. It is one of the best places to live for your money. SWA will cost $8K to get the type and it all starts about the same as NJA. All of these companies require 1000 PIC. While you are trying to get that, you are eating seniority at NJA during one of its largest times of growth. I seriously doubt it will take more than 2 years to upgrade going by my numbers. Taking the fact they have an excellent 401K, full medical (i was paying $300/mo at my last company), and no more commuting (no hotel/crash pad, eating or traveling expenses) then you can stick it right next to a FEX contract and it will be within $5000-8000/yr. Also at FEX you can be gone up to 12 days at a time where at NJA you are not. NJA is certainly better than JB. But of all of the companies you mentioned, FEX is the best in terms of compensation and financial stability to compare NJA to. So yes, NJA is that good!! Do the research and the math.

At FedEx youll be gone 12 days at a time initially while youre putting in your time. Think long term. My neighbor is a FedEx pilot with 8 years of seniority. His schedule is 5 on 9off and never works weekends. I dont know where you are getting your info from. FedEx and SWA are careers, Netjets is a job.

 

[jppt2000]

as214, some of the best posts I've read on these boards.
I came to NJA from ASA about 5 years ago. At that time, alot of the folks I flew with said I was making a mistake going to fly "biz jets".
I went to EJA with the thought of quickly building my Jet PIC time then heading off to majors.
When I hit the line at NJA as an FO, I truely thought I had been Shanghaied. We didn't have an IOE program in place so a newhire got to fly with folks who were angry about flying with a newbie.
In the last five years, IMHO, the culture at NJA has changed 180 degrees.
With the huge inflow of ex-airline folks, (post 9-11) QOL, and union representation have all improved drastically.
The SU folks at NJA didn't have much to work with, but persevered and prevailed through some of the worst management-labor relations in the company-union's history.
Timing is everything in this industry. When I hired on at ASA, the Brasilla program was "taking off the street" captains. At ExecutiveJet the X was the most junior plane in the company, people were getting awarded CA in initial sim. class.
Now upgrades are running five years. I would agree with that, plus or minus 6 months.
If the economy goes back to the go-go 1990's, upgrades will be running that quick again. Or if another post 9-11 economy hits, we might not hire for two years like we did in 2002 through 2004.
If you are close to age 40, you gotta think about working past 60. With the 401k match at NJA, one could retire on a modest sum.
Keeping hotel points and airline miles does ensure you a peaceful vacation with the kids and family, and you don't have to worry about catching the non- rev seats home.
I hope this helps, its just my humble opinion.

 

[j31flyer]

Beechjet Pricing @ Netjets
$812,500 (1/8 Acquisition) $11,640 (Monthly Management Fee) $1,554 (Occupied Hourly Fee)

The above represents the costs of flying a Beechjet 100 hrs./yr. so excluding the acquisition cost you're looking at paying $2950.80/hr. to fly a Beechjet !!! At 200 hrs./yr. it would be roughly $500/hr. cheaper to just own your own. (Assuming $250,000/yr. fixed annual cost and around $1250/hr. DOC)

Bottom line, one could argue that NetJets might be a way to go for someone wanting to fly 100 to maybe as much as 200 hrs./yr. Beyond that they should definately have their own bird. But then again, there are likely many fractional owners that have already tried to own their own by hiring some idiot at 45K/yr. to manage their airplane, watched them totally "F" it up, get soured by the whole experience and then book over to NetJets to purchase a share.

This is just a long winded explanation of why many of the NetJets owners are not with NJA because they are spending the wisest dollar.

You need to include all of the costs, not just the price of the airplane. You need to also include that you have to have a crew on salary, medical benefits, retirement, catering, gas, a flight ops dept, etc. Buying with netjets provides all of that. Buying a Beechjet may not be the best deal, but look at the Falcon and the numbers really work to the fractional's advantage. They are saving money by not owning a jet outright. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Diesel]

Honestly it all depends what you want out of life. I can tell you over the last couple of years that my wants have changed for myself and my family. FDX, UPS, and others are great companies. But for myself I'm not willing to move to MM or commute to ANC.

In about 7 years at FDX you will be able to hold a line that allows you to deviate from your own home to where the airplane is supposed to start the trip. Pretty good deal, the coin is nice, and you can try to avoid night flying.

For me now, and probably for the near future rolling out of bed, jumping on the subway and showing up to work is fine for me. Not having to worry about how i'm getting to work or booking myself on jumpseats suits me fine. The biggest thing i have to deal with is a homeless guy insulting me.

Work is work you can make the best of it. Some weeks i wish i flew a ferry every leg and some weeks if i see another excursion full of bags i'll lose it.

But it's a good job and they both have their pluses and minuses. For me now home life and quality of life is something i'm not willing to give up to move on to the bigger jets.

I'm a pretty independant person. I don't really like having a boss and being able to make my own decisions is just my personality. And for the guys that know me know my personality. Anyways my point is i do enjoy the company giving me a credit card and saying get the job done. I decide pretty much every part of my day. I've changed legs around to make sure the pax get where they are going. I like that part of my job. I go to work, i have a broad outline of what i need to do, take care of the job, and return home. Everyonce and a while i get to go to cmh for training or recurrent but the paycheck just shows up and i'm my own boss. Not sure if that makes sense.

The grass is allways greener but i'm not mowing that grass at a crashpad.

by the way i know a guy who just turned down a job at fdx to stay at nj.

 

[h25b]

You need to include all of the costs, not just the price of the airplane. You need to also include that you have to have a crew on salary, medical benefits, retirement, catering, gas, a flight ops dept, etc. Buying with netjets provides all of that. Buying a Beechjet may not be the best deal, but look at the Falcon and the numbers really work to the fractional's advantage. They are saving money by not owning a jet outright. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks, but my numbers do include all of that...

Salary + Benefits (2 Crewmembers)
$16,500/mo. ($198,000)
Hangar
$1500/mo. ($18,000/yr.)
Insurance
$2700/mo. ($32,000/yr.)
CAMP Maint. Tracking
$4200/yr.
FMS Subscription
$1250/yr.
Nav. Charts
$850/yr.

Total of Self Ownership Cost
$254,300
+ 200 hrs. x $1150 (DOC = FUEL + MAINT. + ENG. PROGRAM) =

$484,300 (TOTAL OPERATING COST @ 200 HRS./YR.)

Total of Netjets Operating Cost

Hourly Occupied Cost = $1554/hr. x 200 hrs. = $310,800 + $139,680 (12 mos. of Monthly Management Fees @ $11,640/mo.)

$450,480 (TOTAL NETJETS OPERATING COST @ 200 HRS./YR.)

So at 200 hrs./yr. NetJets is only $34,000 cheaper... BFD... Small price to pay for knowing exactly who your crew is and exactly who will be flying on YOUR plane. I could also argue the difference in depreciation could make up for the difference as well. An owner's share of their aircraft that is flying 1000 hrs./yr. is going to depreciate a heck of a lot quicker than his own flying 200 hrs./yr. Moreover, an owner is getting ripped off to the tune of about $187,500 due to the premium that NetJets is tacking on to the acquisition price (NetJets sells a whole Beechjet for $6,500,000 and you can get a good pre-owned one with around 1000 TT for about $5,000,000 which yields a $1,500,000 premium for NetJets)...
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/list.asp?catid=3&man=BEECH%2FRAYTHEON&mdl=BEECHJET+400A&guid=FE792FE8AEA24F0C978E075B61F1242A

My 2 cents...

 

[niteflyr]

My Math:
10 year capt, 7 and 7 = 182 days
Less 4 weeks Vacation = 154 days per year

Divide by 12 months = 12.8 Days per month average.

Sounds ok to me. How long at SWA to get these numbers?

Also, 12 sick days per year if you happen to catch a "bug" on a work week...

 

[hydrarkt]

h25b,
You forgot to include the availability of a HUGE fleet of airplanes. When your own airplane breaks, what do you do?.... call a charter?? Cha Ching. What happens when a crew member is sick... call a charter? Cha Ching!!
If your NetJets plane breaks, they call you another one. If the crew member is sick, they get another crew.
If you own your own Citation X and want to go BOS to DCA by yourself, do you really need to take a X where the speed won't matter. Why not just downgrade to an XL or Ultra and get a good exchange rate for it?
There are MANY benefits to NJA that the numbers don't reveal. Do more homework.

 

[h25b]

h25b,
You forgot to include the availability of a HUGE fleet of airplanes. When your own airplane breaks, what do you do?.... call a charter?? Cha Ching. What happens when a crew member is sick... call a charter? Cha Ching!!
If your NetJets plane breaks, they call you another one. If the crew member is sick, they get another crew.
If you own your own Citation X and want to go BOS to DCA by yourself, do you really need to take a X where the speed won't matter. Why not just downgrade to an XL or Ultra and get a good exchange rate for it?
There are MANY benefits to NJA that the numbers don't reveal. Do more homework.

Spoken like a true NetJets salesman...

If we're talking about 200-300 hrs./yr. I don't think dispatch reliability is much of a concern. Who cares about calling in a charter for MAYBE the 1 time per year you do get stuck ? BIG DEAL... And as for cost, calling in a charter would run cheaper per hour than a NetJets bird...

There are also a few really big down sides to fractional ownership. It cuts both ways. There is no perfect solution, there never is... Here are a few examples.

1. Unionized pilot labor. (The owners nearly learned this one the hard way...) The union strife that NetJets was enduring recently was great job security for me.
2. Not knowing your crewmembers. For my boss this is a BIG DEAL. He doesn't want different people flying he and his family around every day.
3. Knowing the history and status of YOUR airplane, every second.
4. Knowing your maintenance. Another big deal for my boss... For example, I see a lot of Netjets Citations sitting at the GSO Citation service center and I have heard a lot of bad things about that place. My boss KNOWS that our aircraft is going to the most knowledgeable service centers available.

You have to look at NetJets for what it really is... A HUGE CHARTER COMPANY... Nothing more, nothing less....