regional guy trying to learn about fractional world

[buttercup]

AS214, I really crunched the numbers before I left my RJ CA position to go to NJA rather than trying to work another year to get the 1,000 PIC to compete with 10,000 other pilots trying to work at FEX. I have several friends at FEX and SWA. Looking at someone who lives in DFW, the best thing is NJA. DFW is far from an expensive place to live. It is one of the best places to live for your money. SWA will cost $8K to get the type and it all starts about the same as NJA. All of these companies require 1000 PIC. While you are trying to get that, you are eating seniority at NJA during one of its largest times of growth. I seriously doubt it will take more than 2 years to upgrade going by my numbers. Taking the fact they have an excellent 401K, full medical (i was paying $300/mo at my last company), and no more commuting (no hotel/crash pad, eating or traveling expenses) then you can stick it right next to a FEX contract and it will be within $5000-8000/yr. Also at FEX you can be gone up to 12 days at a time where at NJA you are not. NJA is certainly better than JB. But of all of the companies you mentioned, FEX is the best in terms of compensation and financial stability to compare NJA to. So yes, NJA is that good!! Do the research and the math.

J31,

First of all I have alot of respect for you.you are doing much more research than the average joe looking for a job. The only way I could see NJA being better than any of the aforementioned jobs is if you live in a place that doesnt have a Major airline base AND is low cost of living. My take is NJA is better than any regional but worse than any Major . I havent crunched the numbers but I can assure you Netjets' wife husband has much more accurate info on what a realistic timeframe would be. He says five years and has access to much union info. I believe his timeframe. At SWA seniority means something. The guys at the top of SWA get 18-19 days off per month. 7 on 7 off wont do that for you. If family is a bigger priority in your life than flying which it should be you wont like 7 on 7 off. At DAL based with SWA youll have the ability to eventually bid days turns,3 days, 2 days, etc. Much more conducive to family life and you wont have to commute. Ive found in this industry people have a tendency to be intellectually dishonest . When a person inquires about working at a certain company the person who works there and is giving him the info. in regards to the company has a tendency to glorify it and not tell both sides of the story. SWA and Netjets upgrades will be about the same timeframe for new-hires. I wish you well in all your endeavors and sure you will do well. Just get the REALISTIC story from everyone and make your decision accordingly. I've flown with many an F.O. who have had to re-mortgage their house or make life altering decisions due to a financial situation that wasnt as rosy, or an upgrade that wasnt as quick as told in the initial interview process. Good Luck!!

 

[buttercup]

Good Gawd !!! A post from netjetwife that I almost entirely agree with !!

"Best thing in aviation ???" This must be a joke. Lets see shall we ?

1. Something like 180 RON's/yr. on the 7/7 schedule.
2. Getting to live in one of 5 horrible domiciles that you can't choose. (can't wait to see what type of housing 47K gets you in PBI...)
3. Eating Rudy's Catering almost exclusively.
4. Creating a "butt-mark" in almost every Signature Flight Support recliner.



Somewhat true, but if anyone with half a brain crunches the numbers they would find that your typical NetJet "owner" is one who chooses the fractional route more for convenience than sound financial decision making. The cost structure at NetJets these days has narrowed the margin between those that would be better off to charter and those that should consider outright ownership.

Beechjet Pricing @ Netjets
$812,500 (1/8 Acquisition) $11,640 (Monthly Management Fee) $1,554 (Occupied Hourly Fee)

The above represents the costs of flying a Beechjet 100 hrs./yr. so excluding the acquisition cost you're looking at paying $2950.80/hr. to fly a Beechjet !!!

No kidding. People will tell themselves anything to avoid facing the truth.

 

[buttercup]

AS214, I really crunched the numbers before I left my RJ CA position to go to NJA rather than trying to work another year to get the 1,000 PIC to compete with 10,000 other pilots trying to work at FEX. I have several friends at FEX and SWA. Looking at someone who lives in DFW, the best thing is NJA. DFW is far from an expensive place to live. It is one of the best places to live for your money. SWA will cost $8K to get the type and it all starts about the same as NJA. All of these companies require 1000 PIC. While you are trying to get that, you are eating seniority at NJA during one of its largest times of growth. I seriously doubt it will take more than 2 years to upgrade going by my numbers. Taking the fact they have an excellent 401K, full medical (i was paying $300/mo at my last company), and no more commuting (no hotel/crash pad, eating or traveling expenses) then you can stick it right next to a FEX contract and it will be within $5000-8000/yr. Also at FEX you can be gone up to 12 days at a time where at NJA you are not. NJA is certainly better than JB. But of all of the companies you mentioned, FEX is the best in terms of compensation and financial stability to compare NJA to. So yes, NJA is that good!! Do the research and the math.

At FedEx youll be gone 12 days at a time initially while youre putting in your time. Think long term. My neighbor is a FedEx pilot with 8 years of seniority. His schedule is 5 on 9off and never works weekends. I dont know where you are getting your info from. FedEx and SWA are careers, Netjets is a job.

 

[jppt2000]

as214, some of the best posts I've read on these boards.
I came to NJA from ASA about 5 years ago. At that time, alot of the folks I flew with said I was making a mistake going to fly "biz jets".
I went to EJA with the thought of quickly building my Jet PIC time then heading off to majors.
When I hit the line at NJA as an FO, I truely thought I had been Shanghaied. We didn't have an IOE program in place so a newhire got to fly with folks who were angry about flying with a newbie.
In the last five years, IMHO, the culture at NJA has changed 180 degrees.
With the huge inflow of ex-airline folks, (post 9-11) QOL, and union representation have all improved drastically.
The SU folks at NJA didn't have much to work with, but persevered and prevailed through some of the worst management-labor relations in the company-union's history.
Timing is everything in this industry. When I hired on at ASA, the Brasilla program was "taking off the street" captains. At ExecutiveJet the X was the most junior plane in the company, people were getting awarded CA in initial sim. class.
Now upgrades are running five years. I would agree with that, plus or minus 6 months.
If the economy goes back to the go-go 1990's, upgrades will be running that quick again. Or if another post 9-11 economy hits, we might not hire for two years like we did in 2002 through 2004.
If you are close to age 40, you gotta think about working past 60. With the 401k match at NJA, one could retire on a modest sum.
Keeping hotel points and airline miles does ensure you a peaceful vacation with the kids and family, and you don't have to worry about catching the non- rev seats home.
I hope this helps, its just my humble opinion.

 

[j31flyer]

Beechjet Pricing @ Netjets
$812,500 (1/8 Acquisition) $11,640 (Monthly Management Fee) $1,554 (Occupied Hourly Fee)

The above represents the costs of flying a Beechjet 100 hrs./yr. so excluding the acquisition cost you're looking at paying $2950.80/hr. to fly a Beechjet !!! At 200 hrs./yr. it would be roughly $500/hr. cheaper to just own your own. (Assuming $250,000/yr. fixed annual cost and around $1250/hr. DOC)

Bottom line, one could argue that NetJets might be a way to go for someone wanting to fly 100 to maybe as much as 200 hrs./yr. Beyond that they should definately have their own bird. But then again, there are likely many fractional owners that have already tried to own their own by hiring some idiot at 45K/yr. to manage their airplane, watched them totally "F" it up, get soured by the whole experience and then book over to NetJets to purchase a share.

This is just a long winded explanation of why many of the NetJets owners are not with NJA because they are spending the wisest dollar.

You need to include all of the costs, not just the price of the airplane. You need to also include that you have to have a crew on salary, medical benefits, retirement, catering, gas, a flight ops dept, etc. Buying with netjets provides all of that. Buying a Beechjet may not be the best deal, but look at the Falcon and the numbers really work to the fractional's advantage. They are saving money by not owning a jet outright. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Diesel]

Honestly it all depends what you want out of life. I can tell you over the last couple of years that my wants have changed for myself and my family. FDX, UPS, and others are great companies. But for myself I'm not willing to move to MM or commute to ANC.

In about 7 years at FDX you will be able to hold a line that allows you to deviate from your own home to where the airplane is supposed to start the trip. Pretty good deal, the coin is nice, and you can try to avoid night flying.

For me now, and probably for the near future rolling out of bed, jumping on the subway and showing up to work is fine for me. Not having to worry about how i'm getting to work or booking myself on jumpseats suits me fine. The biggest thing i have to deal with is a homeless guy insulting me.

Work is work you can make the best of it. Some weeks i wish i flew a ferry every leg and some weeks if i see another excursion full of bags i'll lose it.

But it's a good job and they both have their pluses and minuses. For me now home life and quality of life is something i'm not willing to give up to move on to the bigger jets.

I'm a pretty independant person. I don't really like having a boss and being able to make my own decisions is just my personality. And for the guys that know me know my personality. Anyways my point is i do enjoy the company giving me a credit card and saying get the job done. I decide pretty much every part of my day. I've changed legs around to make sure the pax get where they are going. I like that part of my job. I go to work, i have a broad outline of what i need to do, take care of the job, and return home. Everyonce and a while i get to go to cmh for training or recurrent but the paycheck just shows up and i'm my own boss. Not sure if that makes sense.

The grass is allways greener but i'm not mowing that grass at a crashpad.

by the way i know a guy who just turned down a job at fdx to stay at nj.

 

[h25b]

You need to include all of the costs, not just the price of the airplane. You need to also include that you have to have a crew on salary, medical benefits, retirement, catering, gas, a flight ops dept, etc. Buying with netjets provides all of that. Buying a Beechjet may not be the best deal, but look at the Falcon and the numbers really work to the fractional's advantage. They are saving money by not owning a jet outright. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks, but my numbers do include all of that...

Salary + Benefits (2 Crewmembers)
$16,500/mo. ($198,000)
Hangar
$1500/mo. ($18,000/yr.)
Insurance
$2700/mo. ($32,000/yr.)
CAMP Maint. Tracking
$4200/yr.
FMS Subscription
$1250/yr.
Nav. Charts
$850/yr.

Total of Self Ownership Cost
$254,300
+ 200 hrs. x $1150 (DOC = FUEL + MAINT. + ENG. PROGRAM) =

$484,300 (TOTAL OPERATING COST @ 200 HRS./YR.)

Total of Netjets Operating Cost

Hourly Occupied Cost = $1554/hr. x 200 hrs. = $310,800 + $139,680 (12 mos. of Monthly Management Fees @ $11,640/mo.)

$450,480 (TOTAL NETJETS OPERATING COST @ 200 HRS./YR.)

So at 200 hrs./yr. NetJets is only $34,000 cheaper... BFD... Small price to pay for knowing exactly who your crew is and exactly who will be flying on YOUR plane. I could also argue the difference in depreciation could make up for the difference as well. An owner's share of their aircraft that is flying 1000 hrs./yr. is going to depreciate a heck of a lot quicker than his own flying 200 hrs./yr. Moreover, an owner is getting ripped off to the tune of about $187,500 due to the premium that NetJets is tacking on to the acquisition price (NetJets sells a whole Beechjet for $6,500,000 and you can get a good pre-owned one with around 1000 TT for about $5,000,000 which yields a $1,500,000 premium for NetJets)...
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/list.asp?catid=3&man=BEECH%2FRAYTHEON&mdl=BEECHJET+400A&guid=FE792FE8AEA24F0C978E075B61F1242A

My 2 cents...

 

[niteflyr]

My Math:
10 year capt, 7 and 7 = 182 days
Less 4 weeks Vacation = 154 days per year

Divide by 12 months = 12.8 Days per month average.

Sounds ok to me. How long at SWA to get these numbers?

Also, 12 sick days per year if you happen to catch a "bug" on a work week...

 

[hydrarkt]

h25b,
You forgot to include the availability of a HUGE fleet of airplanes. When your own airplane breaks, what do you do?.... call a charter?? Cha Ching. What happens when a crew member is sick... call a charter? Cha Ching!!
If your NetJets plane breaks, they call you another one. If the crew member is sick, they get another crew.
If you own your own Citation X and want to go BOS to DCA by yourself, do you really need to take a X where the speed won't matter. Why not just downgrade to an XL or Ultra and get a good exchange rate for it?
There are MANY benefits to NJA that the numbers don't reveal. Do more homework.

 

[h25b]

h25b,
You forgot to include the availability of a HUGE fleet of airplanes. When your own airplane breaks, what do you do?.... call a charter?? Cha Ching. What happens when a crew member is sick... call a charter? Cha Ching!!
If your NetJets plane breaks, they call you another one. If the crew member is sick, they get another crew.
If you own your own Citation X and want to go BOS to DCA by yourself, do you really need to take a X where the speed won't matter. Why not just downgrade to an XL or Ultra and get a good exchange rate for it?
There are MANY benefits to NJA that the numbers don't reveal. Do more homework.

Spoken like a true NetJets salesman...

If we're talking about 200-300 hrs./yr. I don't think dispatch reliability is much of a concern. Who cares about calling in a charter for MAYBE the 1 time per year you do get stuck ? BIG DEAL... And as for cost, calling in a charter would run cheaper per hour than a NetJets bird...

There are also a few really big down sides to fractional ownership. It cuts both ways. There is no perfect solution, there never is... Here are a few examples.

1. Unionized pilot labor. (The owners nearly learned this one the hard way...) The union strife that NetJets was enduring recently was great job security for me.
2. Not knowing your crewmembers. For my boss this is a BIG DEAL. He doesn't want different people flying he and his family around every day.
3. Knowing the history and status of YOUR airplane, every second.
4. Knowing your maintenance. Another big deal for my boss... For example, I see a lot of Netjets Citations sitting at the GSO Citation service center and I have heard a lot of bad things about that place. My boss KNOWS that our aircraft is going to the most knowledgeable service centers available.

You have to look at NetJets for what it really is... A HUGE CHARTER COMPANY... Nothing more, nothing less....

 

[Diesel]

actually h2b i take offense.

I've written up more stuff while working at NJ than i ever would have when i worked charter or for a corporate owner.

When I work for NJ if it's broken it's broken. It didn't just break on the last flight in, or is operating intermitant but maybe will work just one last time.

At nj i don't have to worry about that. The owners won't be inconvienced because they will have another plane or even an upgrade. You can be sure that plane will be operating 100 percent because there is no incentive to fly broken airplanes.

Can you say the same for the corporate/charter flight? That was the hardest thing i had to learn when coming here that I'm not saving the company entirely by myself. I keep the company safe by not flying broken equipment and carrying writeups.

These are mechanical machines that break. Are you telling me that every flight you've flown has not had a problem? If that's the case i need to buy the plane you fly.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

You have to look at NetJets for what it really is... A HUGE CHARTER COMPANY... Nothing more, nothing less....

You just keep on telling yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to justify you're job. Many people who can afford it don't mind paying a little more to get rid of (clear throat) you and you're flight department. It's the ugly truth, but now that fractional has matured, most owners realize they don't miss the headaches of owning a flight department. Pilots get sick, who cares. Plane breaks, minor inconvenience as NetJets is sending in a replacement...oh boy, maybe I'll get the Falcon this time and avoid the fuel stop. Pilot wants kid's birthday off, don't feel bad for saying No now, not a thought anymore with fractional ownership. Sell the hangar and put the cash towards an upgrade, sounds good to me.

Many concerns are gone. We all have to admit it, and some like yourself have a hard time realizing what thousands already have, a better wheel has been made and those with the cash LOVE it! Early on it was hard to see people lose there jobs. But it's happening in the majors and many various flight departments. And if you don't make yourself and you're department more appealing than fractionals, you'll stand a good chance of eventually being cut. I'm glad to be here because daily I hear the sounds of nails being hammered into the coffins of the majors and various flight departments that just lost their luster when held up next to what an excellent fractional can offer.

It all comes down to this. Daily, several thousand of us pilots listen to the stories from our pax/fractional owners of why they made the switch and will never go back. We've heard it daily for year after year. It just means we are doing our job and no matter how much you crunch the numbers, it's still more than what you're able to offer. Best of luck to you.

 

[h25b]

actually h2b i take offense.

I've written up more stuff while working at NJ than i ever would have when i worked charter or for a corporate owner.

When I work for NJ if it's broken it's broken. It didn't just break on the last flight in, or is operating intermitant but maybe will work just one last time.

At nj i don't have to worry about that. The owners won't be inconvienced because they will have another plane or even an upgrade. You can be sure that plane will be operating 100 percent because there is no incentive to fly broken airplanes.

Can you say the same for the corporate/charter flight? That was the hardest thing i had to learn when coming here that I'm not saving the company entirely by myself. I keep the company safe by not flying broken equipment and carrying writeups.

These are mechanical machines that break. Are you telling me that every flight you've flown has not had a problem? If that's the case i need to buy the plane you fly.

I am not arguing with any of the points you are making. What you are describing is exactly the way things should be run. You and I know some don't do it this way. I can tell you for a fact that our little operation is run exactly how you describe it. After having worked for 2 Fortune 100 flight departments and now managing a small one on my own I have not run in to anything close to what you describe. If our airplane breaks, it's broken when and where it broke... Period.

And to the guy that is taking offense to me calling NetJets a large charter operation. I am only going by what you were all telling us a few months ago. Those were the exact words of many who were on here telling us all that we don't want to work there. But I guess that all changed overnight with the new CBA ???

Let us compare and contrast the "BrnJetFuel" 's of the past and present...

NJA is a place that had a chance gone bad. Management doesn't care about customer service and they are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. Really a shame because there used to be a number of pilots that would have wanted to see this place succeed. NetJets bought a couple thousand pilots anxious to see the planes end up with respectable corporate outfits who would on day one pay double what most of the senior pilots make now. Not much to lose anymore and much more to gain. They either pull their heads out of thier ahrses and dump the ego trip or this place is dust.

You just keep on telling yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to justify you're job. Many people who can afford it don't mind paying a little more to get rid of (clear throat) you and you're flight department. It's the ugly truth, but now that fractional has matured, most owners realize they don't miss the headaches of owning a flight department. Pilots get sick, who cares. Plane breaks, minor inconvenience as NetJets is sending in a replacement...oh boy, maybe I'll get the Falcon this time and avoid the fuel stop. Pilot wants kid's birthday off, don't feel bad for saying No now, not a thought anymore with fractional ownership. Sell the hangar and put the cash towards an upgrade, sounds good to me.

Many concerns are gone. We all have to admit it, and some like yourself have a hard time realizing what thousands already have, a better wheel has been made and those with the cash LOVE it! Early on it was hard to see people lose there jobs. But it's happening in the majors and many various flight departments. And if you don't make yourself and you're department more appealing than fractionals, you'll stand a good chance of eventually being cut. I'm glad to be here because daily I hear the sounds of nails being hammered into the coffins of the majors and various flight departments that just lost their luster when held up next to what an excellent fractional can offer.

It all comes down to this. Daily, several thousand of us pilots listen to the stories from our pax/fractional owners of why they made the switch and will never go back. We've heard it daily for year after year. It just means we are doing our job and no matter how much you crunch the numbers, it's still more than what you're able to offer. Best of luck to you.

Wow...

I think some of you are trying argue a very moot point. Most corporate aircraft that ARE NOT flying 1000 hrs./yr. typically will give better than a 99% dispatch reliability... The only flight departments that NJA has shut down were ones that would've have been shut down for one reason or another regardless of NJA's existance... The only real beef I have with NJA in this matter is their sales peoples' predatory practices...

 

[Diesel]

h25b- I'm not pushing buttons just asking this question

When you're plane breaks do you feel a twinge of fear in your stomach? That the boss is going to be pissed?

When the plane breaks on me I get that little twinge in my stomach because i'm letting the company and the owner down. But then I realize that another plane will be on the way and the owners won't even notice other than a tail change.

Like you said utility goes a long way for if these planes are breaking or not.

 

[h25b]

h25b- I'm not pushing buttons just asking this question

When you're plane breaks do you feel a twinge of fear in your stomach? That the boss is going to be pissed?

When the plane breaks on me I get that little twinge in my stomach because i'm letting the company and the owner down. But then I realize that another plane will be on the way and the owners won't even notice other than a tail change.

Like you said utility goes a long way for if these planes are breaking or not.

I know the exact feeling you are talking about and it's one of the things you need to get over as a professional pilot. In my case, the boss DOES NOT WANT to go unless both the aircraft AND crew are 100% ready to go. We NEVER get questioned about a safety or mechanical decision. EVER. In fact a few months ago he called me just to tell me he appreciated what I was doing to save money on fuel but just wanted to make sure that we don't get so wrapped up in it that it would in any way compromise safety. In otherwords, if another few hundred pounds of $4.50/gal fuel makes you feel better then BUY IT !!!

I'm not saying that we've never MEL'd an item. In the entire last year we did so about 3 times. When we do it is only to get us home and to get it fixed. If the item has any impact on the flight then it is a NO GO item. We know the limitations of not having a backup airplane but the positives of having our own far outweigh the VERY few negatives. Of of the ways we downplay this is to operate low time aircraft under warranty.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

But I guess that all changed overnight with the new CBA ???

Let us compare and contrast the "BrnJetFuel" 's of the past and present...

... The only real beef I have with NJA in this matter is their sales peoples' predatory practices...

Uhhh, well yeah! Getting more than a 60% pay raise overnight really did help. Getting well into six digits a year to fly and BE THE CUSTOMER SERVICE this place was built on gives NetJets a fighting chance in spite of it's management. Finally having professional compensation for delivering professional service enables one to pull the line harder while still slipping in the company crap.

Trust me when I say that NOT ONE pilot here has much use for the sleazy used car salesman types who peddle our services. Our industry really deserves much better than what is out there. Apparently inbreeding is the only way to get one of their jobs and until it changes, I don't expect to see anyone with the spine or morality to qualify it as a job that isn't more or less a straight shot to the internal bowels of the earth when they die. Whew, long sentance. Good night.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

In my case, the boss DOES NOT WANT to go unless both the aircraft AND crew are 100% ready to go. We NEVER get questioned about a safety or mechanical decision. EVER.

Consider yourself fortunate and in an enviable and rare flight department. What you're describing is rare and uncommon with most small, privately owned operators. It's because of that rarity that most pilots really enjoy the safety and job security here at NetJets where we aren't subject to one passenger or one owner and his/her daily whims or intolerances.

On a different note. What are you're plans working for what sounds like a wonderful individual owner, when he/if he decides to go fractional (can't always convince them not too, sometimes their best friends do it for our sales people) or shuts it down? I've got lot's of friends who have had their flight departments taken over by larger companies and let them go. And then others who's owner was simply quite older than the pilots and ended not flying (or paying the checks) as long as the pilot needed. Many of these guys get a new job every couple/few years with no choice in the matter. Nothing sucks more than working for a great owner and then having to work for a Kamikaze superman. Sometimes it is easier to join than fight. Just my $0.02

 

[wolfpackpilot]

I see a lot of Netjets Citations sitting at the GSO Citation service center and I have heard a lot of bad things about that place. My boss KNOWS that our aircraft is going to the most knowledgeable service centers available.

Citation Service Centers are like Burger King. If you've been to one, you've been to them all.

I see NJA Citations sitting at every Service Center in America! Thats because NetJets owns about 300 of them.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

I'm glad to be here because daily I hear the sounds of nails being hammered into the coffins of the majors and various flight departments that just lost their luster when held up next to what an excellent fractional can offer.

And for some strange reason I see a twinkle in your eye when you say that. Another mans pain could someday be your own.

I was there Sept. 13th with no job, no check, and a 1 year old...

 

[BrnJetFuel]

And for some strange reason I see a twinkle in your eye when you say that. Another mans pain could someday be your own.

I was there Sept. 13th with no job, no check, and a 1 year old...

I can appreciate that. This industry SUCKS BIG TIME! But now that I'm deeply in it, I'm glad they would have to hack for along time before they reached my shoes. Not by skill, just date of hire and no where else to go. But when someone comes up with a better way of hauling the elite and swollen wallet types around, yes I'll be back where I was before I fell into this. Looking for a job at McDonalds. No twinkle here. Perhaps you meant that urge to tinkle about 3 hours in and several cups of coffee later. That I gots!