Regional Airlinepilots Union

[PBRstreetgang]

If a new Pilots union were here today, and would represent all pilots equally for the purposes of collective bargaining would you leave ALPA and come onboard?
Or join if unaffiliated?
PBR

 

[Sabre60]

If a new Pilots union were here today, and would represent all pilots equally for the purposes of collective bargaining would you leave ALPA and come onboard?
Or join if unaffiliated?
PBR

What could it hurt? Lord knows that Duane Woerth won't be happy until all of us "regional pilots" are either working as greeters at Wal-Mart or stocking light fixtures at Lowes to make way for the "real pilots".

 

[DoinTime]

Who is going to pay the bills? 2% of the pittiful salaries in the regional airline buisness is not going to go very far.

What could it hurt? Lord knows that Duane Woerth won't be happy until all of us "regional pilots" are either working as greeters at Wal-Mart or stocking light fixtures at Lowes to make way for the "real pilots".

That was an extreamly ignorant comment.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
2% of the current regional pilots payscale is not alot but at least you would be spending it on representation directed towards the pilot not mainline companies shareholders. 2% of any increases would increase the coffers of the proposed union. What if, after a certain amount(war chest) in the bank, the remainder was returned to the members own retirement 401(k)? Currently the regional airlines are hiring(as a whole), and mainline is shrinking. ALPA wouldn't work for me, I don't think it's working that well for the regional pilot's now, what do you propose, do nothing and see what happens?
Can any regional pilot give me specific examples how APLA has enhanced/improved their current contract?
PBR

 

[WhiteCloud]

That was an extreamly ignorant comment.

Ooops!

 

[DoinTime]

Can any regional pilot give me specific examples how APLA has enhanced/improved their current contract?

ALPA does not do anything for anyone. They provide the tools and resources for independent MEC's to negotiatiate thier own contracts. If your company has a crappy contract it is a reflection of your negotiating committee and your pilot group, not ALPA.

Can you give an example of how ALPA has underminded the efforts of your MEC?

 

[Sabre60]

That was an extreamly ignorant comment. [/B]

And just who in the hell are you that you can determine the validity or "ignorance" of a particular comment or expression. It was not directed at you or any particular pilot group. Just the supposed "leadership" at ALPA. But I guess that you are the official arbitor of what is sensible commentary on this board.

 

[dogman]

DoinTime is exactly right! Your union is only as strong as your own pilot group. ALPA, or any other union for that matter, will just give you resources to make your pilot group's contract better. It's an employee groups right to use the collective bagaining agreement, not someone else to do it for you.

This thread sounds like the attitude from alot of people these days. "It's always someone elses fault that I can't get what I deserve."

Just venting a little from some peoples attitudes!

 

[DoinTime]

And just who in the hell are you that you can determine the validity or "ignorance" of a particular comment or expression. It was not directed at you or any particular pilot group. Just the supposed "leadership" at ALPA. But I guess that you are the official arbitor of what is sensible commentary on this board.

Your comment was directly solely at Duane Worth, who is the chairman of MY Union. You have made this every bit my business. Your insinuation that DW stays up at night plotting new ways to screw you over is downright paranoid and shows your level of comprehension in this business and our Union.

I stand by my comments towards you. They were dead on target.

 

[Sabre60]

Your comment was directly solely at Duane Worth, who is the chairman of MY Union. You have made this every bit my business. Your insinuation that DW stays up at night plotting new ways to screw you over is downright paranoid and shows your level of comprehension in this business and our Union.

I stand by my comments towards you. They were dead on target.

The only thing dead on target is your obvious arrogance toward a position that does not agree with your own. And it is NOT YOUR UNION, but the union of 40,000+ members that I feel sure don't share YOUR viewpoint(or even my own) at various times. I simply made a comment in frustration, YOU have chosen to take it personally(by the tone of your response anyway). I stand by MY comment concerning the arrogant tone of your response, not you. It is dead on target as well! You have NO right or reason to question my "level of comprehension" about this business anymore than I have that right to question your own. Just who do you think you are?? I disagree with MANY posts and discussions I have seen on this forum. I just have the grace to realize that these are VIEWS AND OPINIONS of others, nothing more. I may not agree with you TIME, but I am certainly NOT going to chastise or belittle you for posting your own thoughts or opinions. Where I come from, its stil a free country with the ability to express yourself.

 

[Vorleron]

A dog can't serve two Masters and mainline airlines serve better Alpo.

Regional pilots need a regional union.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey.
I wasn't implying that ALPA was evil or Duane was the anti-christ. My point was to find out how the various pilots felt about their union. I was ALPA at Trans-States and felt the pilot group was closer and more in tune than any group I have ever worked with. The tone and expertise of ALPA national sets the attitude of the contract negotiations, and I haven't been impressed with the contracts that came during good times, and totally disappointed with the recent ones. I just think ALPA is oriented towards mainline, not regionals.
PBR

 

[Catbird]

Alpa's latest corruption entails the co authorship in the crafting of Jets for Jobs at U. with any Professional pilots nightmare the union busting Law firm of FORD and HARRISON (Atl. Ga.). Alpa needed a little professional help crafting a document which replaced 20 year Alpa pilots (Commuter Trash) with 3 year Alpa pilots(Real Airline pilots). The sad chapter to this fraud is that the "Commuter Trash" have the pleasure of sending the 1.95% to Duane and his new Buddy from U ,Ex MECC Chrissy Beebe. With this pair at the helm of Alpa the "Commuter Trash" will be sending there first born to Alpa via a assessment to fund our fraternal brother's flying "real" airliners at the major airlines. For the last 15 years the Administrators at Alpa have used the "Commuter Trash" the same way the donkey's are used in a Mexican border town.

 

[DoinTime]

Alpa's latest corruption entails the co authorship in the crafting of Jets for Jobs at U. with any Professional pilots nightmare the union busting Law firm of FORD and HARRISON (Atl. Ga.). Alpa needed a little professional help crafting a document which replaced 20 year Alpa pilots (Commuter Trash) with 3 year Alpa pilots(Real Airline pilots). The sad chapter to this fraud is that the "Commuter Trash" have the pleasure of sending the 1.95% to Duane and his new Buddy from U ,Ex MECC Chrissy Beebe. With this pair at the helm of Alpa the "Commuter Trash" will be sending there first born to Alpa via a assessment to fund our fraternal brother's flying "real" airliners at the major airlines. For the last 15 years the Administrators at Alpa have used the "Commuter Trash" the same way the donkey's are used in a Mexican border town.

You are referring to US Airways ALPA. Believe it or not ALPA National did not negotiate J4J on the behalf of the US Airways MEC. The deal was struck between US Airways ALPA, US Airways, and their respective codeshare partners (wholly owned or not). Like I said earlier, all MEC's are free to negotiate for themselves.

All regional pilots work at contract carriers flying a brand name for some other carrier. The brand name does not belong to them and therefor they don't have any entitlements associated with that flying. If a mainline carrier chooses to impose new rules on their contract carriers and the service agreement allows for it the contract carrier is going to have suck it up or lose the contract. US Airways brand flying belongs to US Airways. They can (within limits) do whatever they want with it. Unfortunately the contract carriers MEC's are not players in the power struggle.

If you want your MEC to be in more control go work for a carrier that doesn't do contract work for someone else.

 

[Catbird]

Doing Time- You don't know what your talking about. Get your facts straight before you spout the Alpa line. PSA,PDT and ALG are OWNED by U. We didn't ask to be bought. UNDERSTAND? U is a wholly owned of U Group, the same as ALG, PSA and PDT. Your statement "each MEC negotiate for themselves." Which is great in ALPA's fraudulent negotiation tactics. They have sold that fraud for 15 years. My hats off to the RJDC and Mr. Ford with the character to place ALPA into insolvency where they belong.

If you want your MEC to represent you, don't have Alpa represent you. It analogous to asking Bill Clinton to babysit your teenage daughter.

There is none so blind as the person with eyeballs which refuse's to open them and look outside there own eyelids.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

There is none so blind as the person with eyeballs which refuse's to open them and look outside there own eyelids.

In my best Butthead voice:

Uuuugh.....What the hell are you talking about, Beavis?

 

[DoinTime]

Doing Time- You don't know what your talking about. Get your facts straight before you spout the Alpa line. PSA,PDT and ALG are OWNED by U. We didn't ask to be bought. UNDERSTAND? U is a wholly owned of U Group, the same as ALG, PSA and PDT.

If you haven't figured it out yet, you never will.

 

[Catbird]

Mr. Butthead voice- Please I thought piloting a aircraft required attention to detail. I understood your rebuttal after I noticed your nametag. I realized a long time ago the essence of true superiority. My crew was waiting in a crew van at the hotel to drive to the A/P when the Delta contingent strolled down to the lobby. The fine attired superior Captain looked in the van and stated to the driver. " We don't ride with other crews". He had the look of a person who had swallowed a kitty litter box. The driver said fine. Closed the doors, jumped in and left the "Superior ones" curbside. We tipped that fine man well. I see your training is progressing in "Superior Airmen" fashion.

RJDC in 2003. They will help Alpa figure it out.

"Saddle up Mr Van driver, the Delta crew rides solo. "

 

[Cardinal]

Let's see, a regional pilot's union would:

1. Abandon ALPA's legal, financial and political resources.
2. Fight with zeal to get increasingly larger aircraft onto regional payscales as management cheers from the bleachers. Today 70 seaters, tommorow 777s. "We'll only fly the A380 at 50 seat rates for 18 months, then we'll negotiate in good faith."
3. Jettison any chance of single seniority lists within each airline brand.
4. Trade relationships that can be made to work (Cal, Calex) for downrgiht acidic and destructive enmity (AA, AE). Mainline/regional relationships aren't always peachy, UsAir, Delta, etc, but at least the reps show up to talk to each other.

Yippee, where do I sign up for this abortion? Somebody has a great idea: "Lets divide the union." Well then it isn't a union anymore, is it. It would be just fantastic if regional pilots would crack open a book on labor relations or economics just once, instead of gleaning all so-called wisdom from similarly ignorant coworkers in the cockpit and on the bloody internet. The past is bound to repeat itself. Start here: "Hard Landing", Thomas Petzinger. "Flying the Line", vols I and II, and "The Airline Pilots," George Hopkins. "Confessions of a Union Buster," Martin Jay Levitt. "Collision with Collusion" J.T. Bertrand. "Macroeconomics," McGraw-Hill.

 

[Catbird]

Lets take a look beautiful-

Your statement-
1. Abandon ALPA's legal, financial and political resources.

Reply- I've experienced Alpa legal at work, friends like that you don't need enemies. Financial you say. 1.95% for JFJ's. I pass on that to. Political resources- I believe PAC's are ALL corruption in a veiled form. Alpa is a perfect fit on that point.

2. Fight with zeal to get increasingly larger aircraft onto regional payscales as management cheers from the bleachers. Today 70 seater's, tomorrow 777s. "We'll only fly the A380 at 50 seat rates for 18 months, then we'll negotiate in good faith."

Your fraternal mindspeak is showing- Why doesn't Alpa take a stand of all pilots are equal and stand on this line of defense. Sure would make it difficult to bargain with someone else's career though for Mainline gain, so Alpa wouldn't do that.

3. Jettison any chance of single seniority lists within each airline brand.

PLEEEEEESE- That would require a leadership role. You are joking aren't you? A mainline 4 year pilot becoming junior to a 25 year "Commuter Trash" substandard pilot? Are one better a military pilot required to sit right seat in a commuter? Hurry to the Emergency room before it's to late.

4. Trade relationships that can be made to work (Cal, Calex) for downright acidic and destructive enmity (AA, AE). Mainline/regional relationships aren't always peachy, UsAir, Delta, etc, but at least the reps show up to talk to each other.

Talk to each other- The MEC's which represent the "Commuter Trash" go much further than talk. Our MECC is going steady with our mainline MECC with Alpa National supplying the money for those vigorous sessions. Too bad the "Commuter Trash" line pilot receives a peck on the cheek. Alpa is well versed in these interludes. Alg's ex MECC is a prime example of a perfect romance and communication partner. He made it to the big "Administrator Cathouse". Without him just think where ALG would be these day's?


The men who are described in "Flying the Line 1 & 2" had character. The few I knew from the book looked upon Alpa today as a shell of what it was. Started with Duffy and has reached a level of self serving with Worthless that it has redefined the meaning of No leadership. More like the "Lifestyles of the Rich and Worthless".

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

That's a great story, Cat.

I once knew a pilot from X airline who was a jerk. Therefore, I concluded that all the pilots at X airline must be jerks.



I still don't get your quote. Were you trying to be Zen-like, or did you horribly misquote someone else?

 

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by Catbird:
I've experienced Alpa legal at work, friends like that you don't need enemies. Financial you say. 1.95% for JFJ's. I pass on that to. Political resources- I believe PAC's are ALL corruption in a veiled form. Alpa is a perfect fit on that point.

First of all, ALPA isn't on trial here. The question is would a separate union benefit regional pilots. Nobody asked if they should be the moral standard bearer for all western civilization. Your dues rate has no bearing on what kind of deals your MEC agrees to. That's faulty logic. By "financial resources" I was leaning towrds strike assements, and the like. I can guarantee that our Teamsters local does not have a strike pay fund set up, ready to pull the trigger should we walk. Of course PACs are veiled corruption, else what's the point? AFL/CIOs support of the DNC is particularly repulsive. But it does accomplish some goals. Age 60 was defeated, thank goodness. Otherwise we'd all be sentenced to another 6 years of this.


Your fraternal mindspeak is showing- Why doesn't Alpa take a stand of all pilots are equal and stand on this line of defense. Sure would make it difficult to bargain with someone else's career though for Mainline gain, so Alpa wouldn't do that.

Is "mindspeak" an Orwellian word? Anyway, it would be great if this was the stand that was taken. ALPA hasn't done enough in this area. But how will irrevocably branding ourselves with "Regional Pilots Local 132" in anyway effect the caste system? If anything a separate union would strengthen that stereotype.


3. Jettison any chance of single seniority lists within each airline brand.
PLEEEEEESE- That would require a leadership role. You are joking aren't you? A mainline 4 year pilot becoming junior to a 25 year "Commuter Trash" substandard pilot? Are one better a military pilot required to sit right seat in a commuter? Hurry to the Emergency room before it's to late.

Ever heard of a fence? SSL would not be a seamless, everybody's happy, lets sing kumbaya event. But with a little thought and planning, most of the parties could be made somewhat happy most of the time. More importantly it's not about the individual pilot, it's about improving the structure of the industry in future years. And what was your solution again?


Talk to each other- The MEC's which represent the "Commuter Trash" go much further than talk. Our MECC is going steady with our mainline MECC with Alpa National supplying the money for those vigorous sessions. Too bad the "Commuter Trash" line pilot receives a peck on the cheek. Alpa is well versed in these interludes. Alg's ex MECC is a prime example of a perfect romance and communication partner. He made it to the big "Administrator Cathouse". Without him just think where ALG would be these day's?

I already noted that the USAirways case is not a shining example. What do you want, a Purple Heart? Like I said, read some of letter3.org's stuff for a wonderful depiction of a happy family. You get J4J, not really a fantastic deal for the wholly owned pilots. My condolences. But at Eagle the pilots are just as flushed, and there aren't promises of future growth, and they weren't given the choice, which is in contrast to most of the Airways carriers. Communication within the brand is the only way to avoid or mitigate one group shafting the other.

Kicking over the checkers board becasue you're losing, even if the game was rigged, accomplishes nothing. Creating a renegade union with an identity based solely on "not being mainline" is about as productive.

 

[Catbird]

As you have stated " Its all in the attitude". I gladly gave Delta pilots the jump for years before they had a reciprocal agreement. Always heard the explanation that it wasn't there fault they had a exclusive jump it was managements hardheadedness. Reminded me of ALL Luftwaffe pilots ALWAYS stating they flew on the Russian front. It's hard to understand why folks would lump all piles together but I guess it's just human nature after you have experienced the "Attitude" for years. Maybe they were pioneers in todays "Me" generation.

 

[Catbird]

Ms Cardinal- Your entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. I do know that Alpo will sell Mesaba, Eagle, and any other Commuter down the river for a song. They are exhibiting it everyday. If you believe a commuter pilot will continue to pay to be raped by Alpo thats fine vote to accept or maintain there representation. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay dues or a assessment so that a mainline MEC can expand their "Scope Provisions" without having all effective parties at the table with public disclosure. I have heard the confidentiality clause and the party line concerning Legal help, Individual MEC negotiation, and other babble. Unfortunately Duane the Worthless signs the papers so it all rest at his throne. If he accepts predatory bargaining on a selective basis he's in violation of the Alpa By Laws. He knows it, and Alpa legal is trying to defend it in the RJDC class action Lawsuit. That's the reason for a Regional Pilots Association. Will it be better than Alpa? Who knows until you try it. For a large number of "Commuter" or Small, Small/Medium, Medium/Small, Tiny/Small almost Large or what ever Alpo renames aircraft and pilots it is fraud as represented today.

 

[Catbird]

Ms. Cardinal- I don't desire a Purple Heart, you said that. I do need the sharp hot poker removed from my rear. It was applied by the fraternal brothers and sisters wearing a smile and asking for money. In fact they were babbling about Legal representation and Flow Thru more that 20 years ago when the first burning sensation was experienced. I pointed out the AlpO" Merger Policy" but unfortunatly they choose the alternative of collusion and control with managment and a advancement of the "Me" concept to a higher level. Today we are experiencing a twisting of the hot poker.

RJDC in 2003

 

[trainerjet]

Catbird,

It's YOUR OWN fault that you are stuck with what you have. If it makes you feel better to cry and whine and point fingers and call names and blame others, fine.

But it changes nothing. Remember that. It is, it has been, and it will ALWAYS be, YOUR FAULT. PERIOD.

 

[dogman]

Bla, bla, bla. Some feline in here sounds very insecure about himself.

 

[DoinTime]

It will be a cold day in hell before I pay dues or a assessment so that a mainline MEC can expand their "Scope Provisions" without having all effective parties at the table with public disclosure.

I recall when Mesa was able to secure the scope provisions in their new contract that it was called a success on the part of regional pilots. Albeit at a heavy price. Why wasn't Freedom allowed to participate in the negotiations on that scope? How about CCAir? If US Airways had the scope that Mesa does there would be no wholly owned or any independent contractors. Scopeing your operation is a good thing. Otherwise management is free to break it up and sell it to the lowest bidder.


It must be nice to live your life so cluelessly under a double standard.

 

[bvt1151]

We all know ALPA would get rid of every regional pilot if it meant more income for the union. However, its just this kind of ruthlessness that would make a separate regional union a disaster. The only thing protecting regional pilots now is the legal system. ALPA can't officially "screw" the regional guys in favor of the major pilots because they are supposed to equally represent everyone. If we went and created a separate union, it wouldn't last very long, because there wouldn't be any of us left after ALPA used their famous "bulldozer" policy. We would have no protection against the #1 threat to the regional airline pilot's career, ALPA.

Take a good look at what happened to Eagle, and ask yourself if ALPA would do the same to each and every one of us if we split.

So we don't get fair representation while we're a part of ALPA, but if we separate, they'll eat us alive.

Today's word is, "conundrum."

 

[dogman]

Pilot group against pilot group. Sounds like the company is already winning!