Regional Airlinepilots Union

[FlyDeltasJets]

That's a great story, Cat.

I once knew a pilot from X airline who was a jerk. Therefore, I concluded that all the pilots at X airline must be jerks.



I still don't get your quote. Were you trying to be Zen-like, or did you horribly misquote someone else?

 

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by Catbird:
I've experienced Alpa legal at work, friends like that you don't need enemies. Financial you say. 1.95% for JFJ's. I pass on that to. Political resources- I believe PAC's are ALL corruption in a veiled form. Alpa is a perfect fit on that point.

First of all, ALPA isn't on trial here. The question is would a separate union benefit regional pilots. Nobody asked if they should be the moral standard bearer for all western civilization. Your dues rate has no bearing on what kind of deals your MEC agrees to. That's faulty logic. By "financial resources" I was leaning towrds strike assements, and the like. I can guarantee that our Teamsters local does not have a strike pay fund set up, ready to pull the trigger should we walk. Of course PACs are veiled corruption, else what's the point? AFL/CIOs support of the DNC is particularly repulsive. But it does accomplish some goals. Age 60 was defeated, thank goodness. Otherwise we'd all be sentenced to another 6 years of this.


Your fraternal mindspeak is showing- Why doesn't Alpa take a stand of all pilots are equal and stand on this line of defense. Sure would make it difficult to bargain with someone else's career though for Mainline gain, so Alpa wouldn't do that.

Is "mindspeak" an Orwellian word? Anyway, it would be great if this was the stand that was taken. ALPA hasn't done enough in this area. But how will irrevocably branding ourselves with "Regional Pilots Local 132" in anyway effect the caste system? If anything a separate union would strengthen that stereotype.


3. Jettison any chance of single seniority lists within each airline brand.
PLEEEEEESE- That would require a leadership role. You are joking aren't you? A mainline 4 year pilot becoming junior to a 25 year "Commuter Trash" substandard pilot? Are one better a military pilot required to sit right seat in a commuter? Hurry to the Emergency room before it's to late.

Ever heard of a fence? SSL would not be a seamless, everybody's happy, lets sing kumbaya event. But with a little thought and planning, most of the parties could be made somewhat happy most of the time. More importantly it's not about the individual pilot, it's about improving the structure of the industry in future years. And what was your solution again?


Talk to each other- The MEC's which represent the "Commuter Trash" go much further than talk. Our MECC is going steady with our mainline MECC with Alpa National supplying the money for those vigorous sessions. Too bad the "Commuter Trash" line pilot receives a peck on the cheek. Alpa is well versed in these interludes. Alg's ex MECC is a prime example of a perfect romance and communication partner. He made it to the big "Administrator Cathouse". Without him just think where ALG would be these day's?

I already noted that the USAirways case is not a shining example. What do you want, a Purple Heart? Like I said, read some of letter3.org's stuff for a wonderful depiction of a happy family. You get J4J, not really a fantastic deal for the wholly owned pilots. My condolences. But at Eagle the pilots are just as flushed, and there aren't promises of future growth, and they weren't given the choice, which is in contrast to most of the Airways carriers. Communication within the brand is the only way to avoid or mitigate one group shafting the other.

Kicking over the checkers board becasue you're losing, even if the game was rigged, accomplishes nothing. Creating a renegade union with an identity based solely on "not being mainline" is about as productive.

 

[Catbird]

As you have stated " Its all in the attitude". I gladly gave Delta pilots the jump for years before they had a reciprocal agreement. Always heard the explanation that it wasn't there fault they had a exclusive jump it was managements hardheadedness. Reminded me of ALL Luftwaffe pilots ALWAYS stating they flew on the Russian front. It's hard to understand why folks would lump all piles together but I guess it's just human nature after you have experienced the "Attitude" for years. Maybe they were pioneers in todays "Me" generation.

 

[Catbird]

Ms Cardinal- Your entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. I do know that Alpo will sell Mesaba, Eagle, and any other Commuter down the river for a song. They are exhibiting it everyday. If you believe a commuter pilot will continue to pay to be raped by Alpo thats fine vote to accept or maintain there representation. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay dues or a assessment so that a mainline MEC can expand their "Scope Provisions" without having all effective parties at the table with public disclosure. I have heard the confidentiality clause and the party line concerning Legal help, Individual MEC negotiation, and other babble. Unfortunately Duane the Worthless signs the papers so it all rest at his throne. If he accepts predatory bargaining on a selective basis he's in violation of the Alpa By Laws. He knows it, and Alpa legal is trying to defend it in the RJDC class action Lawsuit. That's the reason for a Regional Pilots Association. Will it be better than Alpa? Who knows until you try it. For a large number of "Commuter" or Small, Small/Medium, Medium/Small, Tiny/Small almost Large or what ever Alpo renames aircraft and pilots it is fraud as represented today.

 

[Catbird]

Ms. Cardinal- I don't desire a Purple Heart, you said that. I do need the sharp hot poker removed from my rear. It was applied by the fraternal brothers and sisters wearing a smile and asking for money. In fact they were babbling about Legal representation and Flow Thru more that 20 years ago when the first burning sensation was experienced. I pointed out the AlpO" Merger Policy" but unfortunatly they choose the alternative of collusion and control with managment and a advancement of the "Me" concept to a higher level. Today we are experiencing a twisting of the hot poker.

RJDC in 2003

 

[trainerjet]

Catbird,

It's YOUR OWN fault that you are stuck with what you have. If it makes you feel better to cry and whine and point fingers and call names and blame others, fine.

But it changes nothing. Remember that. It is, it has been, and it will ALWAYS be, YOUR FAULT. PERIOD.

 

[dogman]

Bla, bla, bla. Some feline in here sounds very insecure about himself.

 

[DoinTime]

It will be a cold day in hell before I pay dues or a assessment so that a mainline MEC can expand their "Scope Provisions" without having all effective parties at the table with public disclosure.

I recall when Mesa was able to secure the scope provisions in their new contract that it was called a success on the part of regional pilots. Albeit at a heavy price. Why wasn't Freedom allowed to participate in the negotiations on that scope? How about CCAir? If US Airways had the scope that Mesa does there would be no wholly owned or any independent contractors. Scopeing your operation is a good thing. Otherwise management is free to break it up and sell it to the lowest bidder.


It must be nice to live your life so cluelessly under a double standard.

 

[bvt1151]

We all know ALPA would get rid of every regional pilot if it meant more income for the union. However, its just this kind of ruthlessness that would make a separate regional union a disaster. The only thing protecting regional pilots now is the legal system. ALPA can't officially "screw" the regional guys in favor of the major pilots because they are supposed to equally represent everyone. If we went and created a separate union, it wouldn't last very long, because there wouldn't be any of us left after ALPA used their famous "bulldozer" policy. We would have no protection against the #1 threat to the regional airline pilot's career, ALPA.

Take a good look at what happened to Eagle, and ask yourself if ALPA would do the same to each and every one of us if we split.

So we don't get fair representation while we're a part of ALPA, but if we separate, they'll eat us alive.

Today's word is, "conundrum."

 

[dogman]

Pilot group against pilot group. Sounds like the company is already winning!

 

[trainerjet]

Pilot group against pilot group. Sounds like the company is already winning!

Of course they are, and if this board is any indication, most pilots are too stupid and/or self-absorbed to see it.

 

[FSB99]

ALPA does not do anything for anyone. They provide the tools and resources for independent MEC's to negotiatiate thier own contracts. If your company has a crappy contract it is a reflection of your negotiating committee and your pilot group, not ALPA.

this needs to be said again, although from reading some of the replies here, my reposting this insight will be in vain.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Catlitter,
1) you and your RJDC are not going to acomplish $hit in 2003 or 2004, 2005 etc....
2) You are either a scab or a scab in the making.
3) ALPA is growing and getting stronger everyday, they have learned their lesson in the 80's.
4) the statements you are making are straight from the union busting handbook, heard it all before.
5)Dont complain about the 1.95%, im sure you more than make up for it from what you recieve from Harrison and Ford.


United we stand with our Union, ALPA
Easy it is to see through your colors. You still need much training young darthscab. The darkside is no match for ALPA.

 

[surplus1]

This is a good thread, please go on. With every post I learn more about why "regional pilots" get what they get from "their" union, ALPA.

Sometime, when those of you that appreciate the "financial, legal and political resourses", that you allegedly get from the ALPA come to understand how those resources are used by the ALPA, you might have a different perspective.

I'm not advocating a "regional pilots union", but I would advocate an "airline pilots union", something that we do not now have.

There are reasons why the APA pilots, the SWAPA pilots, the IPA pilots and others do not belong to ALPA. Some might call it foolish, others know it is wise.

As for the idea that indvidual MEC's are autonomous and exclusively responsible for their own lot, that is no more than a lack of knowledge about how ALPA works, how it is structured and why. There is a reason why ALPA operates with a unicameral system; it is no accident. There is a reason why ALPA is structured without checks and balances; it is no accident. There is a reason why ALPA representational dollars are allocated as they are; it is not accident. There's a reason why ALPA's legal department and outside law firm is set up as it is; it is no accident. There is a reason why ALPA's voting mechanisms are structured as they are; it is no accident. There is a reason why ALPA's Executive Council is structured as it is; it is no accident.

There is no "conspiracy" because there is no need for one. The power of those in power is absolute; they do not need to conspire when they merely have to exercise their unlimited power. The "executive branch" is not bridled by the burden of "oversight" and there is no judicial system. Law (policy) is both made, administered, and judged, by the same people, as a consequence of which they have become more infallible than the Pope, for it is they and they alone who decide the limits of their own infallibility. The system is deliberately designed to keep it so. The conflicts of interest are inherent in the structure. The structure cannot be changed without the consent of those that created it, for to do so would require that they give up their absolute power. This, to quote ALPA's current President, "they will never do."

ALPA is operated and controlled by five of the 42 airlines that allegedly "belong". They are Delta, United, Northwest, USAirways and more recently Continental who are lords and masters of all they survey. Federal Express (recently rejoined) is lord and master of the freight haulers. The Canadians, within limits, are controlled by the "Canada Board" which until recently was dominated by Canadien ... the only "major" of the lot. [Now that the Canada Board is run by "regional pilots", fear not ways will be found to ensure that it does not interfere with the powers that be ... until such time as a "merger" can be effected with the ACPA and the "status" of the Canada Board restored to that of the ALPA structure. You can bet all your marbles that there would never have been a "merger" with our Canadian friends if both Air Canada and Canadien had left CALPA before the merger.]

ALPA's "National Officers" are in fact no longer "elected" by ALPA's members. Officially, of course they are, but realistically they are appointed by the Big Five. The last real "election" was that of J. Randolph Babbitt (first term) and the rivalry came so close to resulting in UAL leaving ALPA, that we now select and elect by consensus of "the five". It is no accident that ALPA's national officers all come from one of the five. It is also no accident or coincidence that each of the "big four" get one of the offices.

When the balance of power within the Excutive Council challenged by the growth of one or more of the small carriers, the big carriers simply change the structure and the method of selection of EVP's to ensure that they cannot be challenged and their power remains secure.

ALPA is a political animal and those airlines in charge of the animal have done and will continue to do whatever is required to ensure that their absolute control of the organization is not threatened. After the potential threat resulting from the Babbitt election nearly resulted in the exodus of UAL, even the once arch enemies of DAL/UAL decided to kiss and make up, less both of them wind up without power. It is far better to "share" power among four or five adversaries, than it is to expose your power to a decision made by 40 or 42 member airlines and risk being left out. That they will never do again.

As much as I dislke the current evolution of the ALPA, I can't define what a "regional airline" really is and therfor would have trouble determining who would have membership in a "union for regional pilots". However, I could easily support a union for airlines with less than a given number of members each.

As long as the ALPA's present structure remains unchanged, there is really no place within the ALPA for airlines like Spirit, Comair, Eagle, Express Jet, Air Tran, or even SouthWest. We're just "hangers on". ALPA's true purpose today is NOT the representation of airline pilots. It is the representation of the pilots of the Mega (Network) carriers. The Big Five. If AA could be convince to rejoin, they would also "belong". Even Alaska which has been in the ALPA for a very long time, doesn't "belong" any more. They hang on to tradition, but they have no real voice. ALPA is not longer what ALPA used to be.

In the process of industry evolution ALPA tried to adjust and attempted to embrace "all airline pilots" and to become "THE PILOTS UNION". While that slogan represents a great "vision" it has not been realized because those who have power do not really want to share it, they simply want the ability to exercise more political power by increasing the number of members they control.

It's a viscious circle, but I think the timing for a separate union is premature. In a few years, it may be right.

 

[Obi-Wan]

RJDC= Managements/Union busting lawfirm's bitch.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Well,
It appears that the Jet-A has been thrown on the fire, now. My follow up question is, out of 1100+ views, are there truly only 100 airline pilots voting.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

TOP

 

[PBRstreetgang]

TOP

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA does not do anything for anyone. They provide the tools and resources for independent MEC's to negotiatiate thier own contracts. If your company has a crappy contract it is a reflection of your negotiating committee and your pilot group, not ALPA.

Can you give an example of how ALPA has underminded the efforts of your MEC?

Why yes I can. Delta operates Delta Connection as an integrated transportation system. ASA and Comair are parts of Delta Airlines. All flying, wages and working conditions are controlled by Delta management.

Delta management has agreed to negotiate with anyone ALPA sends to the bargaining table.

However ALPA will not allow the Comair, or ASA, MEC's to negotiate with Delta management. It is ALPA's position that ASA's MEC may only negotiate with the puppet management team at ASA who does not control the flying, the wages, or working conditions at the "ASA division."

ALPA's reasoning is the opposite of the position they argued at American Eagle and CC Air. The difference for ASA pilots is that we are within the realm of control excercised by the Delta MEC. The Delta bargaining group does not want the ASA pilots to negotiate with Delta because real scope and job protections for ALPA members at ASA would possibly interfere with something the Delta pilots might want - so the union is "hijacked" by one MEC to weaken another MEC. Heck, my union will not allow my MEC to even negotiate with my employer over issues of my wages and working conditions we are locked out.

The subject of concessionary bargaining is now coming up at Delta. As the ASA MEC is trying to negotiate our next contrac the Delta MEC is calling to reduce the amount of any pay cuts they might have to take by spreading the cuts to other working groups.

To Delta management a dollar is a dollar. They do not care if it is an ASA dollar, or a Comair, or a Delta dollar. ALPA is our exclusive bargaining agent. When Delta proposes a 30% cut, ALPA proposes a smaller cut - with the difference being offset by cuts from the ASA and Comair pilots.

Also, by limiting us by block hours while at the same time allowing alter ego airline operations, ALPA has set off the "race for the bottom" as we all must compete against eachother by lowering our wages to get flying.

We do not need a separate union to do battle with ALPA - that would simply weaken both of us. We do need to take back control of ALPA and have the organization operate under the law, without allowing one MEC to use the union to take from other, less powerful, MEC's. Allowing the big MEC's full control of this union is destroying the union and the industry.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Catlitter,
1) you and your RJDC are not going to acomplish $hit in 2003 or 2004, 2005 etc....

Well, we don't have jets for jobs on the Delta property and we are getting the airplanes on firm order when I was hired. Sounds like the deterrent effect of the RJDC has been some what effective.

Originally posted by Obi-Wan 2) You are either a scab or a scab in the making.
3) ALPA is growing and getting stronger everyday, they have learned their lesson in the 80's.[/B]

What the heck are you talking about? You bedwetting, bugger eating, mouth breathing idiot - in the eighties ALPA was broken by scabs at Continental and Eastern. Those scabs were welcomed back into the union by Duane Woerth with cake and ice cream when Continental was enticed back. Not only did ALPA fully forgive the scabs, no one was required to pay back dues and in fact the scabs were given inducements to re-join.

ALPA is not "stronger." The predatory actions of the mainline MEC's and rampant destruction of jobs has triggered a civil war in our union and the better orgainized Comair pilots are armed pretty effectively with the largest and most significant litigation in the union's history going to open Court. Further, ALPA is hemmoraging money at the moment. Bargaining is the highest expense for the union (next to a strike) and due to concessions and bankruptcy almost every group in ALPA is in negotiations at the same time. With fewer large mainline paychecks and those being reduced by 30% the gross drain on ALPA's funds is like water coming through the hull of the Titanic. Of course ALPA does not know how to do anything on the cheap, still holds meetings on yachts and is probably out spending the RJDC by a factor of 10. It is a high price for maintaining an illegitimate apartied oligarchy.

The lesson from the beginning of commercial aviation is to come together as one group, to stand strong against allowing your company to run an alter ego air carrier right through your scope blockade. With ALPA's new definition of "operational integration" how can anyone be a scab? The union does not recognize the rights of their own members to flying that they perform.