Reasons Navy guys want out

[NookyBooky]

Is it more because of family? or the disassociated sea tour? Better lifestyle working for the airlines? Just wondering because I'm already crossing my fingers now hoping that there will be some SNA slots when I finish college in two years. Do you guys think you will miss landing on a boat? I've heard that a lot of the VF/VFA guys aren't as likely to have to do shore duty as some of the other guys. Is this true? And isn't there some way you can fly during or get out of having to do a disassociated sea tour?

sorry for asking so many questions, but I want to know as much as I can before I sign on the dotted line.

 

[pilotyip]

Needs of the service

When you sign up you serve at the pleasure of the President. This means you are assigned what the service needs. If you want to fly VA/VF, and you have the top grades in your class, but there is a need for VW (E-2), you just became an E-2 driver, and then there is fleet wide shortage of Cat officers, you just became a member of ship's company of LGB. If there is shortage of pilots like in the late 70's you may stay in a deployed cockpit for 4-5 years, if there is an excess of pilots like in the mid 70's they may tell you if you want to stay you have to become a NFO or a boat driver. You are in the service not for you, but for your country.

 

[T1bubba]

The decision to leave is an individual one, everyone has their own reasons. That said, all the reasons you listed play a part for most people.

Have to do shore duty??? You make shore duty sound like a bad thing. There is a career progression chart for pilots in the Navy that the detailers use as a general guide to how your assignments should progress. There aren't many exceptions to it, almost everyone will do a 3 year operational sea tour followed by a 2.5 year (formerly 3 year) shore tour, followed by a disassociated sea tour.

The head of aviation detailers came to my base a couple years ago to try to talk folks into staying in. They had some interesting ideas about ways to make staying in until 20 more attractive. Some of them might have even worked, but as far as I know none of them were ever implemented. Disassociated sea tours were a big topic of discussion, but the brass showed remarkably little interest in finding ways to keep pilots flying. Most of their ideas were more along the lines of "payback" assignments after you do the disassociated sea tour.

Of course the lack of flying jobs outside the Navy since 9/11 has done more to convince people to stay in than any of their programs ever would.

Like pilotyip said, where you go and what you do have much more to do with what the Navy needs than with what you want.

T1bubba

 

[PIGHEEL]

Staying in or getting out.

Will look at that in a moment.

First of all, aircraft selection cut begins towards the end of primary. Three groups for Navy folks - Jets, Props, Helos. Have to have a minimum grade cut to get jets. You can make your dream sheet, and if there is a draft for a type other than jets, you'll be likely to go there (props or helos).

You mention tailhookers. So, if you make the cut for jets, then you go on to intermediate and then advanced. Nav' takes you through weps, low levels, ACM etc prior to wings. Good chance to see what you've got. Same selection happens. You put in a wish list/dream sheet and if it fits, you get it. If there's a draft, you go into another a/c type.

Can only speak to the tailhook life. Best flying in the world, no doubt. Sometimes, the most challenging lifestyle there is.

Obligation for Navy folks has been 8 yrs after wings, or about 10 yrs active duty. That's the first gate to look at departing.

Total hours at that point depends on a number of things.

However, most folks can stay flying after their first sea tour. Shore duty is usually very good.

Has been a shortage of VFA folks (Hornets), so it's been a challenge for the Nav' to fill fleet billets or other non flying jobs. Most aviators realize that a non flying job will happen at some time, and try to make the best of it by combining it with other tickets to advance (like a joint tour on a staff; foreign country).

Folks leaving. Most of my budds were leaving for greenier pastures. Numerous folks left at the second gate (14 yrs of active duty; end of a flying bonus). Even though they "only" had 6 yrs left towards retirement, they felt they'd be better off with a commercial airliner for those 6 yrs. However, some got blasted by 9/11, junior, and now on the street (many were able to get back in).

Family plays a part for folks leaving. 6 months of cruise are preceded by many months of work ups at sea or Fallon, NV.

Again, the ones I know who have loved it (along with their spouses) have made the most of their shore duties, visited their spouse in a foreign port, or waited for the second shore duty for a family.

Greatest flyin', sometimes the hardest life. True.

Best to ya. PIGHEEL

p.s. Most of the guys who have enjoyed it will say they've gotten the orders that they want. Part of working the system, bubba network.

 

[kwijybo]

Keep your feet ont the ground

You sound a lot like me in college 10 years ago. A couple of things I found out about the Navy that I wish that I new then.

Flying for the Navy is a very cool thing (chicks dig it too). But remember- you are an officer first, then a pilot. And now matter how many times you say 'I can't belive they pay me to do this' it is still a job- with many downsides.
LONG times away from home, (stay single to maximize the fun factor), I don't know how married guys do it.
Bosses that are only looking up, and never down at the folks working for them. Having decisions made not on common sense, but path of least resistance.
Frustration with old equipment- I flew P-3's, and some of them were older than me, and the Apple IIe could put our computer to shame. Not to mention the ground side of things. Don't ever go to an AF hangar if you are in the nav, you will never recover.

The list goes on, but for every con, there is a pro, and it was a great ride. You will bleed, sweat and drink with great dudes, who you will keep in touch with forever. I am guessing you are about 20 years old now- a word of advice. If you make it through all the hoops, you will be about 30 when it is time to get out/stay. Think about how much you have changed in the past 10 years. You will change a lot in the next 10 as well- your views, values and priorities to be sure. To even begin to think about that kind of decision now is way theoretic. Don't look that far forward too much, enjoy the now, take care of business and soak in the details, so when you have to cross that bridge, you are informed.

Perhaps I set my expectations of the Navy so high, there was no way any organization could live up them, I was doomed to be disappointed.

As for platform selection, all have pluses and minuses. Don't get scopelocked on one and then have your world rocked if it doesn't come through. P-3's weren't my number one choice. I might now wear a g-suit, but 6 months tax free pay + per diem, golf clubs in the back of the bus, weapons under the wings and visiting Australia with 10 people instead of 5000 helped to make me believe it was my lifes biggest blessing in disguise.

 

[Maj]

Grass is always greener

I left the Navy after 10 years because I was presented with some cool opportunities and I had my fill of the deployments. I did 2 6-month cruises, plus both sets of workups. My wife and I figured out that I was away from home roughly 25 out of the 40 months I was in my fleet squadron. Not a whole lot of time for hobbies, etc. Having said that, I would not trade my experiences for anything and I would easily take the same route over again. Where else can you travel all over the world, meet interesting people, and even get to blow some of them up?
Do I miss it? I miss the flying and the cameraderie. But when I correspond with some of my buds who are back in the fleet, my desire to be back in the Nav is easily squelched. Plus, I'm currently transitioning to the ANG to fly F-16's, so I can still strap on a jet a few times a month.
Shore tours are good things! Regardless of the community you're in, there are some pretty cool job opportunities flying all kinds of airplanes all over the world. Just ask Kwijybo. You can compete for jobs where you'll work your a$$ off, or ones where you can work on your golf swing. If you're a knucklehead or just unlucky though, you could end up flying a desk.
TACAIR (F-18/14, etc) dudes can mitigate the risk of disassociated sea tours by becoming landing signals officers (LSO) or by going to Topgun. You still have to rotate back to sea duty following shore duty, but at least it involves flying. If you're not an LSO or a TG dude, luck and timing determine whether you'll be in the cockpit or stuck on a disassociated sea tour.
Like I mentioned above, I would not trade my experiences for anything. I learned a great deal not only about flying, but also about leadership, management, and how to interact with people.
It's difficult to make a decision that will affect the next 10 years of your life, especially at age 20 or 21. Take all of our friendly 'advice' with a grain of salt. Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself whether the challenging lifestyle of being a Navy pilot is for you. Good luck.

 

[Pinto]

Navy Gouge

Ditto what the guys said above about the Navy and reasons that people get out... I was a A-6E and EA-6B driver now flying for the reserves flying DC-9s. I would not trade my experiences for anything. However, the reserves are another great option that I wish I had heard more about earlier in my career. There are reserve squadrons that fly almost very type of aircraft that the Navy has. In addition to the Selective Reservist like myself who fly part time, there are full time personnel call TARs (Temporary Active Reserve). The reserves squadrons need the TARs to run the squadron on a day to day basis--these guys are former active duty that apply and get selected to become TARs. The bottom line is that you can do twenty plus years of active duty with the reserves and avoid a lot of the things that people get of the Navy for--Six month cruises on the ship. TARs can usually stay in the cockpit the whole time too. Don't get me wrong you still might visit the ship for a couple of weeks a year or if we go to war and your squadron gets called up, but that is why you joined the military to serve your country...etc. I word of caution...I would not let my current boss necessary know that you want to go TAR.

 

[NookyBooky]

Thanks

Thanks alot for all the info. I appreciate it.

NB

 

[Beantown]

Maj, A little off the subject but I was wondering which plane you like better the F-16 or F-18? (and I am not trying to get into a Navy, Air Force thing either) thanks, -Bean

 

[MercuryPilot]

More on career path stuff

NookyBooky,
I can give you a little insight into the current way things work for the E-6B and P-3 communities. After flight school, FRS (.5-1 year), first sea tour (3 years) and first shore tour (2.5 years) you will have 9-10 years in the Navy. The Navy is now giving E-6B and P-3 pilots orders for eight (8) years AFTER they earn their wings. This means when you finish your first shore tour you will still owe the Navy ~1.5 years. Currently this would require you to accept orders for a disassociated sea tour and that is almost always orders to be a "shooter" on a carrier (non-flying). The requirement after winging was formerly seven (7) years [luckily I'm under the old system] which means I have ~.3 years remaining after first shore tour and can choose to stay or go. For most of us this will be a family oriented decision and the civilian job market will certainly play a factor as well. Helo pilots will have the same committment but their disassociated sea tour will most likely be something like an air-boss on a small flat deck (usually they won't give them shooter orders).

TACAIR guys who read this forum can give you more insight into their situation.-When my peers got winged out of jets they had an eight (8) year committment. Most of them are considering the LSO option as mentioned in a previous reply.

Don't get too wrapped up in all this before flight school. I completely agree w/the other guys writing to this thread that I wouldn't trade my experiences for anything. You'll do things in Navy aviation other people will never be able to relate to. You'll also make the best friends in the world after sharing some of those experiences on deployment. I assure you that nowhere in the civilian world or the AF would your boss hand you the keys to a B707 as a brand new LT and tell you to fly a schedule that includes California, Maryland, and Europe and say see you in 3 weeks. You won't get that kind of responsibility as a junior guy anywhere else.

Lastly, by the time you get to the disassociated sea tour in your career the detailers will likely have a whole different story. Who knows what the "needs of the Navy" will be 10 years from now.

Best of luck.