Really CAL vs DAL

[EMBpilot]

Anyone esle heard rumor that CAL bumped 787 order to 60?

 

[Heavy Set]

What are you reading at that website? On order, we have 25 B787's ordered, as a percent, how does DL have more than coming?

CAL B757 12yr CA $163, B767-200 $186

DAL B75/B76 12yr CA $158

Read my previous, I told this person I too would choose DL.

From what my friends over there are HEARING, (rumor) there are some ordered via a lessor, and that they will be coming sooner than later. I have no idea how many would come, or when. Apparently there are also many 777s coming in the next few years (10-15), besides the already know 757ERs (15), 737-700s (15), and undetermined 100 seat plane, and MD90s being negotiated for with a Chinese carrier. A lot of that is rumor, but from interesting sources according to them. I guess it may or may not be true, so we'll see. Also, those pay rates are great at CAL, but unfortunately thanks to the age 65 rule coming and now the lack of retirements that will occur at CAL, it is unlikely anyone new will see those rates on the 756 for awhile. I think you are right telling that person to choose DL, since there seems to be some variety in their bases and maybe a better chance to move upwards if all of this supposed Delta expansion becomes true. The 1-4 year rates on that website favor Delta by far, and that is what any newhire should probably look at, since 12 year 756 rates seem a bit far off for everyone now.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

I thought the Delta pilots brought the 757 wages up to the 767 wages? That would be good, right? They also have more 757s and 767s than Continental, and have orders for more widebodies too. Looking at Airlinepilotcentral.com the pay rates for Delta are much better than Cal's, there are no scabs, and the bases are better. Easy choice.

I had hear that Delta brought the 757 wages up to the 767 wages argument too. If it was true, then why are the 737-800 wages so close to the 767 wages?

 

[Scrapdog]

Whatever you do take the General's advice with a grain of salt...his view of his own company versus everyone elses is ALWAYS highly exxagerated. He is by far the happiest Delta pilot on property...

Puddle - I couldn't have said it better myself. If you look at the trend of G Lee's posts, this guy has a love fest over DAL. It's actually quite comical reading some of his data! Dude, airline flying is NOT that fun, bottom line...G Lee makes it sound like working at DAL is like being Peter North's body double in Debbie Does Dallas. Give me a frickin break! LOL

OK, back to the question at hand. I've been at CAL for 6 months (currently on mil leave) and overall it's a good job. Young group of FO's and FA's (they've been hiring steady for over more than a year) and I think that contributes well to a younger, more energetic culture. Our contract in '08 should be pretty strong with a nice raise as CAL has been making money every quarter for the last 4 or 5 (can't say that at DAL for sure). DAL has NOT been hiring steadily obviously and has a much older, more disgruntled culture. DAL is kind of like an old British war ship...pretty intimidating from the outside but is so big and bulky it can't manuever worth a sh*t. Finally they're starting to cut some of the fat off their ridiculous business model they've had for the last few years.

I've got 3 close buds in my unit that fly for DAL. Two can't stand it and one is neutral with it at best. And these guys were about to walk away from the military and head full time for DAL on Sept 10, 2001 because they pay and culture were so good. Wow, that sure has changed huh? Overall airline flying is a job, period. The flying is far from "a blast" and it's not mentally challenging to say the least - but I can say that overall CAL is a good company and will continue to be strong (barring any terrorist bullsh*t) for years to come.

 

[Scrapdog]

One way to look at it is decide whether you want to fly out of EWR or LGA. Newhires at CAL tend to be based out of EWR most of the time and a lot of newhire DAL pilots are flying the MD88 out of LGA or the 767ER out of JFK.

The lack of medical benefits during the first 6 months of employment at CAL is pretty lame........

Honestly, what's pretty lame is not being able to see past the first 6 months of your career and look at the benefits at the 10, 20, and 30 year mark down the road. Looking at the first 6 months of a 30 year career (if say you're 30 when you get hired) are ridiculous. 6 months of a 30 year career is approx 1.7 percent of your entire career...hardly looking long term at retirements, hiring, QOL, etc...

Again, CAL is strong and hiring is good and will continue for the foreseeable future (barring any terrorist garbage). At year 10 you'll be a captain at CAL making 150K to 200K a year (depending on how strong our '08 contract comes out). When you retire at 60 (or 65, whatever...), you'll be a multi-millionaire with a lot of good benefits. For the record, I do think the 6 months without insurance is horsesh*t, but for god's sakes - look outside the box and think long term, thinking 6 months down the road is a show stopper on a long career is extremely sophmoric.

 

[johnsonrod]

Honestly, what's pretty lame is not being able to see past the first 6 months of your career and look at the benefits at the 10, 20, and 30 year mark down the road. Looking at the first 6 months of a 30 year career (if say you're 30 when you get hired) are ridiculous. 6 months of a 30 year career is approx 1.7 percent of your entire career...hardly looking long term at retirements, hiring, QOL, etc...

Again, CAL is strong and hiring is good and will continue for the foreseeable future (barring any terrorist garbage). At year 10 you'll be a captain at CAL making 150K to 200K a year (depending on how strong our '08 contract comes out). When you retire at 60 (or 65, whatever...), you'll be a multi-millionaire with a lot of good benefits. For the record, I do think the 6 months without insurance is horsesh*t, but for god's sakes - look outside the box and think long term, thinking 6 months down the road is a show stopper on a long career is extremely sophmoric.

Thanks Maverick. The 6-month lack of benefits is an anomoly - no other legacy carrier screws its pilots like that. Then why do it? CAL does it because it knows that eager COEX or military pilots will still apply and take it. DAL doesn't screw its newhires (many with families) that way... Does CAL require new executives to take a 6 month benefits hiatus at the beginning of their career? I bet not. Then why screw the pilots? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.....

 

[Heavy Set]

Puddle - I couldn't have said it better myself. If you look at the trend of G Lee's posts, this guy has a love fest over DAL. It's actually quite comical reading some of his data! Dude, airline flying is NOT that fun, bottom line...G Lee makes it sound like working at DAL is like being Peter North's body double in Debbie Does Dallas. Give me a frickin break! LOL

OK, back to the question at hand. I've been at CAL for 6 months (currently on mil leave) and overall it's a good job. Young group of FO's and FA's (they've been hiring steady for over more than a year) and I think that contributes well to a younger, more energetic culture. Our contract in '08 should be pretty strong with a nice raise as CAL has been making money every quarter for the last 4 or 5 (can't say that at DAL for sure). DAL has NOT been hiring steadily obviously and has a much older, more disgruntled culture. DAL is kind of like an old British war ship...pretty intimidating from the outside but is so big and bulky it can't manuever worth a sh*t. Finally they're starting to cut some of the fat off their ridiculous business model they've had for the last few years.

I've got 3 close buds in my unit that fly for DAL. Two can't stand it and one is neutral with it at best. And these guys were about to walk away from the military and head full time for DAL on Sept 10, 2001 because they pay and culture were so good. Wow, that sure has changed huh? Overall airline flying is a job, period. The flying is far from "a blast" and it's not mentally challenging to say the least - but I can say that overall CAL is a good company and will continue to be strong (barring any terrorist bullsh*t) for years to come.

Maybe Gen Lee does enjoy his job, is that so bad? You love CAL so much you go out on Military leave when you can. Looks like you chose Iraq over EWR. Good choice.

My friends at Delta think there is real change ahead, primarily because there has been a change in management and a cleaning of the house so to speak. BK was probably tough on them, but in the end it has made them stronger. That bulky British ship you wrote about has turned into a lean and fast frigate.

CAL is mainly an East Coast airline, and any new upgrades will generally only be available in EWR or maybe CLE, which is supposed to double in size. Does anyone really want to live or be based at either of those two holes? Well then, take the alternative of beautiful Houston. Or, go be lonely in Guam. Your kids may remember you when you come back, or you can take them over there and they could lose contact with their friends here in the states, and any family members left over here too. That's ok, a few years away on an island isn't too bad, look at how much fun people have on "Survivor". Oh, it's not that bad? How much is gas there? Then your kids and wife will be excited to move to EWR, CLE, or steamy IAH. Sounds like a wonderful choice. But, you could also commute on E145s the rest of your life from somewhere close to one of those bases. Those Rjs are never full.


Overall, he should chose the airline that will allow him to live where he wants to live. If it is on the East Coast, then maybe CAL could be for him, even though Delta is building up their JFK base with new 757ERs, and Atlanta is always an option too, with more options on airplanes than any base out there. Delta also has some West Coast bases, but nobody wants to based out there. According to you it is "just a job." Go get um Maverick.

 

[ACWild]

CAL is mainly an East Coast airline, and any new upgrades will generally only be available in EWR or maybe CLE, which is supposed to double in size. Does anyone really want to live or be based at either of those two holes?

Newark is where the airport is, but you don't need to live there. I live near Princeton which is about 35 miles out. A heck of a lot of our pilots live in Allentown PA. EWR is a hole, but I don't know of any pilots who live there. There, I've said my piece... Continue with the CAL bashing...

 

[Heavy Set]

Newark is where the airport is, but you don't need to live there. I live near Princeton which is about 35 miles out. A heck of a lot of our pilots live in Allentown PA. EWR is a hole, but I don't know of any pilots who live there. There, I've said my piece... Continue with the CAL bashing...

I was responding to the Delta bashing by Maverick. I stated that the pilot in question should choose depending where he wants to eventually live. He would have more choices at Delta, which is the point. If he wants to live in Allentown or Princeton, then maybe he should consider CAL. And, do any reserve pilots have crashpads in EWR? Will those reserve pilots remain reserve pilots for awhile if the Age 65 thing is approved? Something to think about, especially with CAL. The scheduled retirements may grind to a hault there.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Anyone esle heard rumor that CAL bumped 787 order to 60?

It is true according to the VP of FLT OPS reported on his vm a few months ago. I was also told the same personally last week from the head of flt standards and training.

How many of these options will CAL actually get your guess is as good as mine.