Real world Go-Arounds

[Medeco]

Hey folks,

I had a real learning experience the other night in the CRJ were I had to go around on an ILS approach because I never captured the Glideslope and was to high when i broke out of IMC.

I want to hear people's stories on there own go-arounds.

Has anyone had one that was "textbook" procedure like they are trained in the sim?

Ours was ugly, and we both dropped the ball on the procedure, then when I suggested to the captain that we hold and verify we didnt miss anything he blew it off, and we teardroped (visual) at 2oooft and landed opposite direction, wind was light.

It was a first for me in the jet and got the heart racing, but was ultimately without incident.

Lets just say it would have stopped the sim in training.

Medeco

 

[RUhiring?]

We were doing a visual approach to 25L in LAS in a 727. It was the FO's leg and we were following Southwest. I could tell that it was going to be tight, but I didn't think it was going to be a problem. Our procedure was for the FE to call out the altitude (from the radio altimeter) in 10 foot increments from 50 to 10. Southwest was just turning off the runway when the FE called "fifty." I knew that SWA would be well clear of the runway prior to us touching down, but the tower controller must have been a bit more nervous about it, because just then he said "Longhorn XXX go around." It took me a moment to grasp the instruction, but all I could say was "that's us" and I pushed the power levers forward. The FO continued the go around. I'm not certain, but I am guessing we were within 20-30 feet of the runway. It was clear and a milliion so the weather wasn't a factor, but the pucker factor was still present.

Of course all the passengers thought we screwed up the landing and had to try it again.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Medeco,

You just scared the hell out of any non-flying folks who pass through this board!

Are you for real? any chance you can give us a HINT who you fly for???

All I can say is never ever admit (or more importantly COMMIT) to an "unstabilized" approach!

 

[PositiveRate]

Medeco. Good post in that this kind of confession is an important part of the learning process. Also, you had the right idea about wanting to hold...a delay vector could have worked as well to allow for a breather and time to regroup. I do, however, have to agree with Gulfstream in that the approach should have never gotten that low in IMC unstabilized.

Don't be afraid to click the autopilot off if you're still outside the marker so that you can go get the GS. Hand flying an approach in the soup is not hard at all with the flight director. Have the captain set the min intercept altitude and give you vs 1-1.5 down depending on how far from the GS you are. If you don't do that, when you try to get the GS with Apprch mode armed and the FD up it will look all dicked up. If you insist on having it coupled, in the future, again, have the min intercept altitude in mind. If they clear you from a point outside the marker and above the GS, set the min intercept and give it at least 1 to 1.5 vs down. If you cross the GS in the process it will capture. Also, if they clear you from a point where you know it won't be feasible or safe to catch the GS, deny the clearance and have them bring you back around. ATC is not perfect.

I've gone around 4 times in the CRJ. Twice in MHT with no contact at mins (those were both as close to textbook as it gets), 1x in LGA because of an A/C on the runway and 1x in IAH because the nose gear wouldn't go down. The last one was a "controlled cluster f" but not unsafe.

A go around at mins from a coupled approach is not hard because they drill us in the sim about it. It's the non standard visual or IMC go around that is challenging and stressful as we've both found. I think they should teach those type scenarios in the sim. In particular, because a lot of us handfly much more on line than in the sim. When you take automation out of the go around profile it gets interesting...

Adios

 

[Blueline]

We were flying into CLE a couple of weeks ago. They started these new visual approaches to parallel runways (the 24's). We were almost neck and neck with an American MD-80. He was beginning to slow and I called for everything to be dumped out to slow down. The spacing was ok, but my attention was focused on not getting too close to him. At 1600 feet, the tower cleared us to land with "two departures prior to your arrival." I thought, "yeah right. That's going to work." I looked out at the runway and saw 1 737 just starting the roll and a Southwest 737 in position. I said that this wasn't going to work and went around at 1200'. As we were rocketing back into space, the tower controller told us to go around. It went pretty smoothly except the controller used some non-standard phraseology like "offset from the runway" or something like that. We just did what we had to do to avoid the MD-80 and the 737s departure. What bad planning from the CLE tower.

A few weeks before that one, we went around in DAB. We were on 5 mile final and had tcas traffic -100 and very very close. Couldn't see him and couldn't get a word in on the freq. Noone told us he was there, so we went around. The approach controller said that there was a target at our 10 o'clock on final, but noone was talking to him. He assured us that final was clear the second time around.

 

[metrodriver]

monday afternoon at DFW there was a little thunderstorm and I saw about 5 jets go around because of windshear. This happens here regularly.
I have missed a few times in a caravan. This particular approach is a localizer only, and since all you need is visibility (according to the books) you shoot the approach eventhough the asos reports clouds 200' below your mda, and of course you go missed. Other go arounds I've made are for deer (2 times, 1 at night- what's that little blue dot doing on the runway?????, 1 during the day), airplane landing the wrong way, kid on motorcycle crossing the runway (below vmc in a seneca)

 

[Pickle]

Go around flaps 20 positive rate gear up

I have only had to do one for real go-around, it was a few months ago in the 757 at MDW. I was flying, we were doing the ILS 31C, circle 22L. There was " A A " really really slow poky super slow (don't want to mention any particular airlines here to hurt anyones feelings, let's just say it was an "American" airline.....) Fokker (you can't censor that out, it was a Fokker) just sitting in position, so we got told to go around from about a 1 1/2 mile final, it was with totally non standard instructions also. Runway heading for 22L is 224 degrees, we were told to do a RIGHT turn (long way around) to heading 090. Everything went as it should, but it was very busy, you are always so used to either doing a straight out missed (like if you had an engine out and had already requested it), or at least you would have breifed the published missed approach procedure for the approach, but there is none for this approach.

 

[Alaskaairlines]

I actually see quite a few go arounds in ANC, infact just today I saw a G-V make a Asian 747F go around, usually there's one I see a day. I actually saw 2 planes on the rwy once, A Dynasty 74F and a Fed-Ex right behind him, the Fed-Ex basically did a LAHSO, both were still on the rwy and stopped - was quite interesting! So ATC does make mistakes....

 

[RyanB727]

My scariest go-around

Scariest moment I ever had in an airplane was going into Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) in a 727. ONE (of the many) reasons it was so scary was because I had been an FO for a couple of years but due to downsizing of the company had been downgraded to FE. That means I knew enough to know how the airplane should be flown, but was sitting in the one seat where you can't actually DO anything if things don't seem to be going well.

The approach into PVR is a VOR approach down through the mountains. Its not really THAT complicated but it takes a bit more of your attention than your average "vector to the localaizer" ILS approach in the U.S. Its also one of those approaches that somehow always ends up sneaking up on you if you're not paying attention and you can easily end up finding yourself WAY too high to be able to get down (even in the 727 and that thing drops like a rock).

Sure enough, on this day, it was the captain's leg and there we were at 10,000 ft, fifteen miles from the airport. Weather was not down to mins but not great either (about 800' overcast, good visibility). The controller realizes we are going to be high and, around 7000' or so, asks if we are in visual conditions. For some unknown reason, the FO says "yes". After hearing that we are in the clear (which we AREN'T), the contoller gives us permission to do a 360 to help get down. The captain, still in the weather AND IN THE MOUNTAINS proceeds to turn off the VOR course and start to do a 360.

I freak out from the back seat.

Like they teach in CRM, I assertively but respectfully (heavy on the assertive, somewhat light on the respect) say "I don't think we should be turning off the course with the mountains here." The captain gets about 90 degrees into the turn, seems unsure what to do, hears what I said, and starts back the other way (towards the VOR course again). I literally think we are going to hit a mountain any second. The VOR course slowly comes alive again, and eventually we break out, but now we're halfway down the runway. The captain levels off, flies a pattern at about 700' (just under the clouds), and comes back around and we land uneventfully.

I don't think I have ever been so glad to be on the ground.

 

[AA717driver]

I've finally learned...

You always practice GA's in the sim by pushing up to full GA thrust and flying the published proceedure.

In real life, it seems that you don't do many GA's from 50' off the runway(RUhiring's story notwithstanding ). The other day, in STL we were "weaseling" around some cells around the marker(where else?) and finally got on the approach and had great vis right up to 1/2 mile from the end of the runway. The controller said the last guy to land said it was "real scary in there".

We went around and bailed out to the left in the clear. I just turned off the FD and the auto throttles and kind of loafed up to 2000' so we could stay out of the bases. A full auto GA would have caused more problems than it solved in that case.

We circled from 12L to 24 and were still going to land into the same storm but we could see 90% of the runway and could still bail to the left(which would have us buzzing the tower if we missed). Made it in that time but entered the 'car wash' at about 50'. Neither of us remembered to turn on the wipers ahead of time so I kind of gropped for the runway. We didn't make the papers so it was a good landing! Great fun!TC

 

[colorado418]

Just two days ago we were going into FLL. There was some heavy rain right over the field. Definately a return on the radar, but not real organized. We were on the downwind following an Airways 757. The wind was reported 230/05. We were landind 9L. A bit of tail wind, but not over our limit. As we were turning final there was a report of windshear, loss of 25 knots on 1 mile final. We were about 10 miles out so we continued for a bit. The 757 then went around. He said he lost the runway short final from heavy rain. The tower reported calm winds then so we continued for a bit more. At around 1000 ft, windshear was reported again. Loss of 20-25 knots short final, winds 230/13. I did not want to get out my crosswind chart so I elected to go around. I called it and the F/O did a great job flying it. We went straight ahead. The tower could have done a bit better job of support. I called that we were on the miss, they never responded. They then told some traffic on the ground that we were on a half mile final. I guess we were, but at 2,000ft by then. I called again. No answer so we started the published miss. Finally another voice responded, gave us 3,000ft and a left turn back to departure control. The subsequent approach and landing was basically in VMC with lt to mod rain on final.

It was one of those time when you get that feeling that you really don't want to be here. If you get that feeling trust it and get out. There is usually another approach available if not another airport. Pushing into a situation where you don't feel comfortable is just the beginning of a bad day....

 

[cl-65link]

Come on over to MSP sometime. I've done 2 go-arounds in the last 30 days due to traffic.

 

[greyhound]

Even at LAX

Few years ago, watching planes at LAX at night around 11 pm.

I had my scanner and heard an AA MD-80 call "Lima" for 25L.(FAF)TWR.....No response.

30 sec later AA : "tower american ??? inbound 25L"

TWR......no response

AA for a third time and still no response.

A skywest emb-120 was holding short on 25R full lenght.

It also tried to call tower "tower american ??? is trying to call you"

No response.

The MD-80 was still approaching, got over the fence gave tower every chance to clear them. But had to go around.
AA called the go around to tower.
That finally got tower's attention, and said,

Tower: " Who is that going around?"

AA " we have been trying to talk to you for the last 5 miles."

TWR: Skywest ???? did you hera AA?"

Skywest ????: " yes, they were calling and so were we!"

Weather was clear, only two airplanes on the frequency, but makes you wonder what kept the controller occupied for so long.

I was shocked, even as a student pilot back then.....

 

[xjcaptain]

Most people get burned ONCE by not mentally preparing for a go-around. In the sim they tend to go O.K. because you EXPECT to go around. On line go arounds don't happen very often. As a relativly low time FO you may never have had to go around because of WX or unexpected ATC request. Because of this your EXPECTATION is that you will land. After being burned, you mentally prepare for the miss (review calls and procedures silently to yourself), EXPECT the miss, and if you actually land, hey that's a bonus. You just need to shift your thinking from the expectation of a landing to the expectation of a miss. Once you get that into your normal mental prep a miss on line is cake!

 

[hydroflyer]

The second, I was in a twin, the instructor was going to demo this takeoff, we were cleared to depart, I checked final as usual, and stomped on the brakes. There was another twin turning a close-in base-to-final. The instructor keyed the mike saying we were holding short as the tower was sending the other twin around. I'd hate to have been in that twin practicing single-engine approaches with the inop engine fully feathered.

Why in the world would you practice single-engine approaches with a fully feathered engine?

Isn't that what the zero thrust setting is for?

 

[blott]

I'm with you Hydro... WTF is that guy thinking. If your single engine you should declare an emergency and a go around would be a last ditch procedure. I have heard of people doing this before though.

 

[enigma]

One evening at DEN earlier this year, the aircraft ahead of us landed long. Tower asked us to be ready for a go-around, but didn't command one. As the mains touched, tower called, "go-around, uh, oh, disregard"

I would have gone around on my own, but I could see the traffic had exited to the taxiway ten thousand feet away.

Which brings me to a question, is it legal for two aircraft to occupy the runway concurrently?

regards,
enigma

 

[hydroflyer]

Which brings me to a question, is it legal for two aircraft to occupy the runway concurrently?

I thought I heard somewhere that it was ok as long as there is at least 3000' of separation between airplanes. Now I don't know how that will change with airplanes operating under different regulations, if at all. Maybe a controller or former controller could help us out here.

 

[enigma]

I thought I heard somewhere that it was ok as long as there is at least 3000' of separation between airplanes. Now I don't know how that will change with airplanes operating under different regulations, if at all. Maybe a controller or former controller could help us out here.

I think I'll ask this on DOCsFAR board. I seem to remember hearing, a long time ago, that the separation required was 5000ft; but I could be wrong. Thanks for your response.

enigma

 

[CRJ_Driver]

I'm certain you can't land if another a/c is on the rwy. Can't quote any reg, but I'm certain.

In Canada, twr can't clear you to land if another airplane is on the runway. The runway must be clear for the twr to clear you to land. Thats in our Canada Rules section of my airlines FOM. Although, I've had YYZ twr clear us to land when another a/c on the runway..so go figure.

I've had 2 go-arounds in CRJ. One due to tailwinds greater than 10kts in ORD when I was IOE. Actually, it was easy b/c I was right out of sim. If that happened 6 mos ago..watch out.

And another due to not breaking out on a VOR appr. In both cases, I wasn't flying...but both went fine...just really busy.

Now, I've had my share of TA's and RA's but thats another story.