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Ramp check

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Back about 18 months ago I was in Midland TX in a King Air 300, the pax were deplaning as I followed. As soon as I rounded the tail heading for the FBO here comes a guy with about 6 pounds of ID hanging around his neck. He asked if we were 91 or 135, my response, "91 sir". His response, "thank you, have a good day". End of story.
 
Well, as a mechanic, I never thought that I'd get checked, but I did. Fortunately, the company I was working was on good terms with the fed.
We were going through the process of getting a CL600 on the company's 135 cert. and while we were waiting for the rest of the crew to show up, Uncle Fed asked me for my license!
I started shaking right there.
I still have the original copy of my A&P in my wallet and I handed it to him, it was 13 years old! He asked if he could make a copy of it and I said "Sure, go ahead." He made the copy, handed it back and I explained to him that though the address was not correct, I did, in fact, have my current address updated via the FAA website. He seemed ok with that and explained that he just wanted a copy for the 135's certificate records.
After that, I have become an inspector for the company and talked to Uncle Fed often.

By the way, the plane made it on cert. with zero problems.
 
A couple of years ago, I left PDK an hour and a half late because my courier couldn't make it to the airport due to a wreck on the interstate. When I arrived at CHA, one of my fellow pilots had my package I would normally pick up. He was being ramped and another couple of inspectors were hanging around. I grabbed my bag, stepped on my scales and threw the bag in my cargo compartment. As I was closing the door, one of the inspectors asked, "Are you in a hurry?" I informed him that i was running 1 1/2 hours late. He said, "Real quick then--we are here doing random checks. I know you're in a hurry, you don't have to show it to me but what is your pilot certificate number?" I looked at him and said, "I'm not REALLY a pilot. I just stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night." He got a good laugh--I told him my number, shook hands and parted ways.

These guys have to make contact with so many pilots each year. Most of them enjoy getting out of the office and are not out to get you.

That was the only time I've been ramped since 1987.
 
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Rick1128 said:
First of all FAA inspectors can not keep your certificate. If you surrender your certificate there are forms you must fill out prior to doing so. Some inspectors used to pull that stunt and it blew up in there faces.

There are only limited things that an inspector can do dring a ramp check. They are listed in Order 8400.10, 8100.10 and 8300.10 depending on what type of ramp check is being done.

They are not allowed to delay the flight. That is a major NO NO.

I have had many ramps during my career. My advise is be polite, get their card, write down their name(s), their fsdo, what they did and asked. Do it openly. If they take offense. Tough. They do it themselves. It is called a memo for record. And it has standing in court. And if they do a route check, get the inspector to give you an 8410 on it.
Inspectors are by law (FAA Act) permitted to inspect anywhere and at any time. It's FAA policy not to unnessessarily delay a flight, but they can and will do so if they find it neccessary.

FAA Inspectors can inspect any facet of an operation during a ramp check. Internal FAA policy lists the required items, but nothing prevents an Inspector from inspecting other items. This actually happens a lot. An individual Inspector can be held accountable if he/she delays a flight without good cause.

I seriously doubt if there's ever been a case that a FAA Inspector kept a certificate that was presented for inspection. I've heard it happened in the old days of the CAA, but it doesn't happen now. In any event, a certificate can't be suspended or revoked without lots of things happening that are beyond the control of individual Inspectors. The voluntary surrender of a certificate is a complex event that involves precise language in a surrender letter that is signed by all concerned, witessed by a third party, and concurred with up front by the Regional Counsel. Any Inspector who tried to fake a voluntarily surrender would be risking a lot more than his or her career.

FAA inspection forms are for internal use. While some Inspectors might be willing to make a copy of a completed form for the operator, he/she is under no obligation to do so, and most would decline. Much of the information collected at the inspection site is not verified until later.
 
wingnutt said:
holy crap, where do y'all fly (or not fly) that you never get ramped?

Got ramped last April in Montego Bay, by a former Canadien Air Transport inspector (Ret.) working for the Jamaican authorities. Was prior to departure. Just the usual stuff. Nice guy.

But I have to admit, not a place I expected to be ramped at.
 
I was three months into my first commuter job in DBQ. My initial training was quick and dirty and done in Tennessee(the owner wouldn't even let us land until we had 100 hours--crazy!) but it was turbine airline time.

I got a call from a Fed who wanted to have a beer and talk about my training. Sure, no problem. I met him at his hotel and the bar was closed so we went up to his room(and there I was thinking I had a Penthouse forum story on my hands... ;) ). We just shot the ***t and that was all.

A few days later, I got a call from the POI in Tennessee. He said we were being investigated and I may get violated based on "the report you gave". At that point, I tore him a new ***hole and informed him of the pretenses under which I talked to the Fed in DBQ.

The company got its certificate temporarily suspended and we all got retrained but I didn't hear a word from the Feds on my situation. I always hoped to run into the Fed that hosed me again but never did. He was from the DSM office.TC
 
My favorite story about the FAA comes from someone who works from them (computer operations or something like that). She was someplace, decided she'd rent a plane from the local airport. She called up, asked to rent a plane. Need a checkout, she's cool with that. She shows up, and one of the first things she asks for is maintenance logs. They give her some grief about that, and she says "I'm with the FAA and I KNOW you have to provide them". Boy, the whole attitude changed INSTANTLY. She laughs about it, today, but for that place, at that time, they were not laughing.
 
TransMach said:
Me: I'm not really concerned. I'm not here to take an oral for our operation ... if you would like, maybe our POI could invite you to my next FAR 135.293(a)(b) oral examination. Otherwise, unless there's a problem with the certificates and documents you are holding, please return them to me so that I may get on with my work.

FAA Inspector: Maybe I need to proceed with a demonstration of competency, or emergency revocation.

Me: Proceed as you see fit. But for now, please return my documents and step aside.



TransMach
...and that's the kind of smart-mouth attitude we don't need on either side of the conversation.

"Be very,very nice to everyone you meet." :)
 
My best ramping occured at xyz airport when I pulled up to the ramp with my "The World On Time" caravan...or TWOT for short.

I had just flipped off the master and was letting the pilot gantry down, when a guy in a suit appeared from around the corner of the hangar. I figured it was a fsdo guy or some whuffo looking for a place to tie down his mooney, but all questions were answered when he reached into his pants and pulled out his big 14 inch

wallet with his FAA credentials. I asked him if he wanted to see my credentials and he said no...pointed to the company logo on the side of the plane and said..."you guys run a good show, I want to know where the pilot of THAT plane is?" as he pointed to the tub of bolts that the UPS contractors fly.

Hahaha...it's always a nice feeling when even FSDO thinks your company is good!
 
memooch said:
Has anyone ever been ramp checked? So much of training is to abide by the rules, and for good reason, but when (besides accident/incident situations) do we pilots ever need to prove the legality of our flights? I'm just looking for common situations and/or stories. Interesting stories are more fun to read. I've only heard that it usually starts like this: "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you."
Yes, I have been ramp checked many times. The LAS FSDO guys like to fly to get to the Grand Canyon. I used to fly an F-27, under Part 121, they rode jumpseat several times per quarter.
 
FN FAL said:
I want to know where the pilot of THAT plane is?" as he pointed to the tub of bolts that the UPS contractors fly.

Hahaha...it's always a nice feeling when even FSDO thinks your company is good!
Now, that was funny.
 
The inspectors must operate in a timely manner. If they see a maintenance issue they can delay the flight. But just to check paperwork, it becomes a very gray area. It has been my experience that most inspectors will not go out of their way to delay you. When I was flying air ambulance they would either go on their mery way after getting my card and writing down a little aircraft information or follow me around while I do my business and get the information they require as I do so. This works real well if you have a fire truck in front of your aircraft with all the lights flashing.

But the most important thing is to keep notes of date, time, place, who, what, etc. Do a memo for record and keep your management informed.
 
Rick1128 said:
When I was flying air ambulance they would either go on their mery way after getting my card and writing down a little aircraft information or follow me around while I do my business and get the information they require as I do so. This works real well if you have a fire truck in front of your aircraft with all the lights flashing.
So very true. When I flew air ambulance I had a Fed decide to ride along. Not a problem, until we got to East Armpit Wyoming at 1 pm in the afternoon. Unfortunately, no one was at the airport and the medical team didn't want his company on the ambulance ride from the airport to the hospital. Fortunately, they wanted me to come with them as was the usual procedure. Unfortunately, I had to lock up the airplane because of the drugs, etc. that we carried. Fortunately, we weren't delayed too long at the hospital. Unfortunately, there wasn't much for my friend to do at the airport, by himself, for a couple of hours. Fortunately, he never asked to ride with us again. :D

'Sled
 
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I have been on both sides of the "Ramp" experence.


My advice: Be professional, courteous, Always ask to see ID (record info if you want to - each inspector has a ID number on their 110-A), If you do not know what a 110A is - maybe you had better find out or some on with a Sears coffee club card will have some fun with you, know what can and cannot be inspected and when. You can ask if there is any area the Inspector is intrested in.

The poor attitude expressed by a one poster will sometimes find you or your company selected for a "Comprehensive" inspection. So, Knock your self out with the attitude.

As for the "Surrender" of a certificate, there is a specific procedure for that with you signing a letter stating that you voluntarily surrender your certificate. Any other "story" is just legend or crap.

61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate.

(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily
surrender it for:
(1) Cancellation;
(2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or
(3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.
(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the
following signed statement or its equivalent: "This request is made for my
own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or
rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the
tests prescribed for its issuance."

JAFI
 
This is a re-post from another message board:

I had an interesting ramp check not too long ago. I’m sure the state complaint rule hasn’t expired yet, but if the FAA were really after my certs, they would have done something by now.

I’d just landed at a VFR-only airport in low IMC conditions with a helicopter in the pattern using the ‘any port in an emergency’ rule. I’d transmitted in the blind that I was a Cherokee on emergency descent into the field. Alas in my desire to get to the runway, I neglected the before landing checklist and tried to land too fast, too high, and without flaps.

We passed the 2/3rds point on runway used and I initiated a go around. The airplane struggled to 400 feet, and I flew the pattern at 400. Of course the helicopter tried to make another approach at the same time so I was right behind him, making a mess out of things. He sidestepped to the other runway which allowed me to make a hot, but stable approach, landing on the long runway. On final, I heard the helicopter pilot asking if I had a real or simulated emergency.

I did complete the after landing checklist. On taxi into parking, I responded on frequency that there was nothing simulated about that emergency, got into parking, ran the shutdown checklist. I then demanded that my passenger get out. I bailed, and headed for the nearest restroom.

On my way across the ramp, I heard someone whistling at me, turned, and saw the pilot from the helicopter headed my way. I didn’t stop. The first door was locked and I almost ran into the helicopter pilot who had ran across the ramp to catch me. “I need to talk to you,” he said, looking quite angry.

I told him I had to go throw up, tell the TRACON that I was still alive, and then I could deal with him. He was speechless as I continued on to the restroom. He didn’t follow me inside, but my passenger reported he had ignored the guy, too, and the guy followed him into the men’s restroom.

Inside, I let the TRACON know I was still alive and ended up talking to their QA Guru about a deviation on my initial departure. The Tower had not let Approach know I refused their departure clearance and that they had offered to RADAR identify the DME fixes. Also, I was tracking the 340 Radial (s-turns across that radial anyways. . .) not the 310 as assigned. I explained the multiple equipment failures including the VOR and the fellow stated he would be forwarding this and the tapes on to the FSDO for a possible pilot deviation, and would be calling me again within 30 minutes.

I took care of physiological needs and headed back outside.

The pilot was standing in the hallway, guarding the restrooms. I then saw the FAA related embroidery on his jacket. Not a mad helicopter pilot, a mad FAA Inspector-type helicopter pilot that had just interrupted the checkride he was giving. He was on the phone talking to someone using our N-Number. I stood a respectful distance away and waited. After that poor approach and landing, I could understand anyone FAA-related having a few questions.

I apologized for not being able to talk with him immediately and we started talking. This Inspector checked my pilot certificates, made sure I was not giving flight instruction, and said he would have "got" me if I had been scud running without a "declared emergency".

He headed back to his checkride and ten minutes later another FAA Inspector called. They wanted a ramp check. Fine. Come on out, except I am having lunch first. I wasn’t shaking, but I knew I would be soon (adrenaline let-down). I asked them to call when they arrived and I would get back to the plane ASAP.
During lunch, the let-down occurred. About an hour later the second FAA Inspector called to say he was at the airplane. I headed out into a driving rain-storm to find two Inspectors, one Ops (pilot-type), one airworthiness (mechanic-type). The mechanic-type was an Inspector I had met the previous day at a large maintenance convention. He remembered me. I think the other guy was the one that issued my ground instructor certificate ages ago.

They invited me into their car (out of the rain) and asked for my certificates, which were still in my flight bag, in the airplane. Back out into the rain… They checked the certificates, writing down all the pertinent info. Now for my currency, how many hours in last 30 days, was I flight instructing, duty day limits, passenger carrying current, and can they see my logbook? My logbook is at home in a fire- & flood-proof safe. Please send a copy of the last 90 days and if it was too many pages, we could discuss it. They seemed quite reasonable for two guys that were called out of their cozy offices to go bust some idiot in a Cherokee that couldn’t fly IFR or land.

Next they wanted to see the last 30-day VOR Check and accepted my kneeboard notation from the Monday flight. Then let’s see the aircraft’s certificates and registration. Back out into the rain… Now a request for the aircraft’s logs. Those were at the aircraft owner’s house, one state away. Would I please send them the most recent of the basic airworthiness items (annual, pilot-static, transponder, etc.) and the entry for what the mechanic found was the cause of the emergency.

They then asked me what happened. I told them (airplane working great Monday & Tuesday, almost succeeded in killing me today). They asked several questions and I was able to pull out the appropriate charts to show them the answers including acknowledgement that I accepted a clearance into known forecast icing. They asked if I had declared an emergency to ATC. I told them that I didn’t know. I did know I’d told ATC about the first equipment failure.

Finally, the rain dried up, along with their questions, and we got out to inspect the aircraft. I told them that I’d only been back to the airplane once to tie it down, and that was it.

During that inspection we noted a large blue streak coming out of the top cowling. It wasn’t there on preflight. You could tell that the airplane had been washed and waxed recently (also a big help). The inspectors asked me to open the cowling. I did, and we found a large pool of 100LL and fuel trail leading to the #2 cylinder. The airworthiness inspector opinioned that the intake gasket had failed and that was our loss of power (and vacuum). They seemed rather happy that they were only doing a ramp check and not an accident investigation.

I asked then for a ride back to the FBO as the mechanic-passenger wanted to get a ferry permit. He hadn’t seen the intake leak yet. The inspectors seized the opportunity, I saw the gleam in the one’s eyes. On the way over to the hotel, we discussed some of the new technology from the convention.

Once at the FBO, I introduced the passenger/IA mechanic/also a VFR-only pilot. Sure enough, “We have some questions, can we discuss them with you [pointed look at me] alone?” The Feds ran him through the ringer for an hour. The outcome: plane not flyable, so no ferry permit, but repair the problem thus making the plane flyable and not needing a ferry permit.

Once I got back I sent the Feds their requested copies, filled out a NASA form, and set up a date with my flight instructor. The next business day I called my FAA Safety Program Manager. She suggested several things; I did every one of them, including calling the TRACON. Speaking to the same QA guy, I found out I had declared an emergency, therefore they didn’t pursue their deviation (violation) paperwork. “You declared an emergency, what can we do?” – why they didn’t process the violation. They had called the FSDO during the beginning of my flight (the nav failure), but no one jumped into the G-car ‘til one of their own called.

As for the airplane, the intake had completely separated from the cylinder. On reviewing the ATC records and a few other things, there is no reason why I am still alive.


Some tips:
Only fly airworthy airplanes. Comply with the regs, refuse the plane if it is missing something required, even just a page missing from the AFM, or illegible and undated compass correction card.

After an emergency, don’t be afraid to tell the investigators that you need some time to calm down before answering questions. I told the first guy he’d have to wait, I invited the second to join me for lunch. The extreme stress and spatial disorientation do take a toll on the body. Even the Cops let drunks throw up before cuffing and stuffing if they are non-violent.

Further, refuse the temptation to spill your guts and show signs of weaknesses. It is quite possible that there really is a mechanical problem with the airplane and whatever happened was not pilot error. Keep the “should haves” for your CFI/ASC. You made pilot-in-command decisions based on all the available information to you at that time.

Preflight always. Although I made several mistakes in dealing with the mechanical problems, inadequate preflight was not one of them. The blue streak on the fuselage was not there on preflight. The Inspectors noted my genuine surprise at the sight of the aircraft.

Be able to give a concise weather brief to any questioners for every flight. I was able to explain the weather system moving in, my strategy for avoidance, and the acknowledgement of the freezing level. We did discuss why I accepted the clearances and what I was dealing with at the time. My decision was going through ice to get VFR was better than back though the clouds to return to the departure airport.


Fly SAFE! (as in don't do as I do ;-)
Jedi Nein
 
Stuff

Jedi,

You've earned some respect in my world.

TransMach
 
zuka said:
I've heard stories about other cargo guys getting ramped at 3:00am but I find it hard to believe that they will get out of bed for that. I always thought they were 9-5, but it was 7:00am when I got checked so they are obviously not 9-5.
Yea, I seriously doubt those guys will be out at the freight ramps in the middle of the night when most of our flying is done. Last week, I got ramped at 8 am, right after a long night. I could tell this guy just woke up and hurried out to meet us all bright eyed and busy tailed due to his aftershave overpowering us in the cockpit.
I heard of inspectors abusing their authority by riding in the cockpit and giving so called "checkrides", while at the same time having their spouses ride in the passenger section just so they can go on vacation and save on having to buy a ticket for himself.
 
Sol, an Inspector will be on the ramp any time he sees fit. That includes 3am, weekends, holidays, etc. It all depends on when the operator or operation is doing something that needs watching.

As to the old go on vacation "inspection". All Cockpit Enroute Inspections are recorded on a pad of sequentially numbered forms with the carbon copy that stays with the pad. The airline keeps the original copy. Each pad is signed out by the Inspector, and then signed in by The FAA office Administrative Officer. Each Enroute pad is reviewed by the FAA Office supervisor then manager and audited by several government offices, each looking for abuses. If you are found to have abused your authority you can be fired. This has happened. All Enroute Inspections must be approved by your supervisor prior to going. An Inspector cannot Enroute on a day off. If you do not have a specific job function at your destination, you cannot go. If you go anyway, you can be fired.



I am sometimes asked by ticket agents when checking in if "this flight is for business or pleasure"? On one long hard day I said to the agent while going to a back water airport in the dead of winter: "Yes, I'm going to East Backwater (not its real name) for "the season". Many people now are not going to Disneyland but find Backwater more entertaining and the up coming IN place of the year. I especially enjoy sitting in a small, uncomfortable jump seat for a two hour flight with my bad back only to stand out on a freezing ramp for the rest of the day. Then fly back in the same jump seat for a two hour flight.



I stopped and looked at the agent. She said "Dumb question, huh?" I said yes it was.



If you find an abuse, tell your boss. The IG, GAO and a few other agencies would love to hear from you.



As for the excessive after shave, I have sat in a few cockpits that made my eyes water, if i'm lucky it is just because of too much aftershave.



JAFI

 
When I was a ramp rat for AE in West Backwater, two of us were cleaning windows just before midnight when we noticed two strangers walking on the ramp. I stayed next to the radio, ready to call police, while the other agent challenged them. They were two FAA Inspectors conducting an airport security check. As they didn't have proper credentials to be on the airport SIDA, we escorted them off the ramp to meet airport security. That airport had strict rules which required airport credentials along with FAA credentials to be in the SIDA.

The other airlines had crews working, including one ramper that politely asked the two Inspectors to move so he could get his cleaning cart parked. Kudos for us, fines and 'training opportunities' for the other guys.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 
transpac said:
It's FAA policy not to unnessessarily delay a flight, but they can and will do so if they find it neccessary.

That may well be but the FAA ROUTINELY gets their pee-pee whacked in court for not adhering to their own guielines for things like inspections or operational procedures.

They can say or do anything they want but if it ever comes to anything that a lawyer needs to be involved in, their missteps and procedural failures are generally easily proved and will lose them anything from their sanction against a pilot/certificate holder/mechanic to their entire case. That is, assuming the attorney is on the ball.

by the way, that delay of flight thing only applies to air carriers. If you're in your 172 and planning to leave at 11:00 AM, you might be late.
 
Jedi, You said: "That airport had strict rules which required airport credentials along with FAA credentials to be in the SIDA."

Some airports just dont get it. Under 49 USC 40113, An Inspector is authorized to be any where on an airport, with out any extra airport badges.

On the 110A is says:

...free and uninterrupted access ...(I won't print the rest but, read the entire paragraph the next time you see a 110A.)

Some U.S. airports just do not think they are part of the United States.

This battle has been going on for years and is above my pay grade.
 

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