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Ramp check
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The inspectors must operate in a timely manner. If they see a maintenance issue they can delay the flight. But just to check paperwork, it becomes a very gray area. It has been my experience that most inspectors will not go out of their way to delay you. When I was flying air ambulance they would either go on their mery way after getting my card and writing down a little aircraft information or follow me around while I do my business and get the information they require as I do so. This works real well if you have a fire truck in front of your aircraft with all the lights flashing.
But the most important thing is to keep notes of date, time, place, who, what, etc. Do a memo for record and keep your management informed.
But the most important thing is to keep notes of date, time, place, who, what, etc. Do a memo for record and keep your management informed.
Lead Sled
Sitt'n on the throne...
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2004
- Posts
- 2,066
So very true. When I flew air ambulance I had a Fed decide to ride along. Not a problem, until we got to East Armpit Wyoming at 1 pm in the afternoon. Unfortunately, no one was at the airport and the medical team didn't want his company on the ambulance ride from the airport to the hospital. Fortunately, they wanted me to come with them as was the usual procedure. Unfortunately, I had to lock up the airplane because of the drugs, etc. that we carried. Fortunately, we weren't delayed too long at the hospital. Unfortunately, there wasn't much for my friend to do at the airport, by himself, for a couple of hours. Fortunately, he never asked to ride with us again.Rick1128 said:
'Sled
Last edited:
I have been on both sides of the "Ramp" experence.
My advice: Be professional, courteous, Always ask to see ID (record info if you want to - each inspector has a ID number on their 110-A), If you do not know what a 110A is - maybe you had better find out or some on with a Sears coffee club card will have some fun with you, know what can and cannot be inspected and when. You can ask if there is any area the Inspector is intrested in.
The poor attitude expressed by a one poster will sometimes find you or your company selected for a "Comprehensive" inspection. So, Knock your self out with the attitude.
As for the "Surrender" of a certificate, there is a specific procedure for that with you signing a letter stating that you voluntarily surrender your certificate. Any other "story" is just legend or crap.
61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate.
(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily
surrender it for:
(1) Cancellation;
(2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or
(3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.
(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the
following signed statement or its equivalent: "This request is made for my
own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or
rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the
tests prescribed for its issuance."
JAFI
My advice: Be professional, courteous, Always ask to see ID (record info if you want to - each inspector has a ID number on their 110-A), If you do not know what a 110A is - maybe you had better find out or some on with a Sears coffee club card will have some fun with you, know what can and cannot be inspected and when. You can ask if there is any area the Inspector is intrested in.
The poor attitude expressed by a one poster will sometimes find you or your company selected for a "Comprehensive" inspection. So, Knock your self out with the attitude.
As for the "Surrender" of a certificate, there is a specific procedure for that with you signing a letter stating that you voluntarily surrender your certificate. Any other "story" is just legend or crap.
61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate.
(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily
surrender it for:
(1) Cancellation;
(2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or
(3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.
(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the
following signed statement or its equivalent: "This request is made for my
own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or
rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the
tests prescribed for its issuance."
JAFI
This is a re-post from another message board:
I had an interesting ramp check not too long ago. I’m sure the state complaint rule hasn’t expired yet, but if the FAA were really after my certs, they would have done something by now.
I’d just landed at a VFR-only airport in low IMC conditions with a helicopter in the pattern using the ‘any port in an emergency’ rule. I’d transmitted in the blind that I was a Cherokee on emergency descent into the field. Alas in my desire to get to the runway, I neglected the before landing checklist and tried to land too fast, too high, and without flaps.
We passed the 2/3rds point on runway used and I initiated a go around. The airplane struggled to 400 feet, and I flew the pattern at 400. Of course the helicopter tried to make another approach at the same time so I was right behind him, making a mess out of things. He sidestepped to the other runway which allowed me to make a hot, but stable approach, landing on the long runway. On final, I heard the helicopter pilot asking if I had a real or simulated emergency.
I did complete the after landing checklist. On taxi into parking, I responded on frequency that there was nothing simulated about that emergency, got into parking, ran the shutdown checklist. I then demanded that my passenger get out. I bailed, and headed for the nearest restroom.
On my way across the ramp, I heard someone whistling at me, turned, and saw the pilot from the helicopter headed my way. I didn’t stop. The first door was locked and I almost ran into the helicopter pilot who had ran across the ramp to catch me. “I need to talk to you,” he said, looking quite angry.
I told him I had to go throw up, tell the TRACON that I was still alive, and then I could deal with him. He was speechless as I continued on to the restroom. He didn’t follow me inside, but my passenger reported he had ignored the guy, too, and the guy followed him into the men’s restroom.
Inside, I let the TRACON know I was still alive and ended up talking to their QA Guru about a deviation on my initial departure. The Tower had not let Approach know I refused their departure clearance and that they had offered to RADAR identify the DME fixes. Also, I was tracking the 340 Radial (s-turns across that radial anyways. . .) not the 310 as assigned. I explained the multiple equipment failures including the VOR and the fellow stated he would be forwarding this and the tapes on to the FSDO for a possible pilot deviation, and would be calling me again within 30 minutes.
I took care of physiological needs and headed back outside.
The pilot was standing in the hallway, guarding the restrooms. I then saw the FAA related embroidery on his jacket. Not a mad helicopter pilot, a mad FAA Inspector-type helicopter pilot that had just interrupted the checkride he was giving. He was on the phone talking to someone using our N-Number. I stood a respectful distance away and waited. After that poor approach and landing, I could understand anyone FAA-related having a few questions.
I apologized for not being able to talk with him immediately and we started talking. This Inspector checked my pilot certificates, made sure I was not giving flight instruction, and said he would have "got" me if I had been scud running without a "declared emergency".
He headed back to his checkride and ten minutes later another FAA Inspector called. They wanted a ramp check. Fine. Come on out, except I am having lunch first. I wasn’t shaking, but I knew I would be soon (adrenaline let-down). I asked them to call when they arrived and I would get back to the plane ASAP.
During lunch, the let-down occurred. About an hour later the second FAA Inspector called to say he was at the airplane. I headed out into a driving rain-storm to find two Inspectors, one Ops (pilot-type), one airworthiness (mechanic-type). The mechanic-type was an Inspector I had met the previous day at a large maintenance convention. He remembered me. I think the other guy was the one that issued my ground instructor certificate ages ago.
They invited me into their car (out of the rain) and asked for my certificates, which were still in my flight bag, in the airplane. Back out into the rain… They checked the certificates, writing down all the pertinent info. Now for my currency, how many hours in last 30 days, was I flight instructing, duty day limits, passenger carrying current, and can they see my logbook? My logbook is at home in a fire- & flood-proof safe. Please send a copy of the last 90 days and if it was too many pages, we could discuss it. They seemed quite reasonable for two guys that were called out of their cozy offices to go bust some idiot in a Cherokee that couldn’t fly IFR or land.
Next they wanted to see the last 30-day VOR Check and accepted my kneeboard notation from the Monday flight. Then let’s see the aircraft’s certificates and registration. Back out into the rain… Now a request for the aircraft’s logs. Those were at the aircraft owner’s house, one state away. Would I please send them the most recent of the basic airworthiness items (annual, pilot-static, transponder, etc.) and the entry for what the mechanic found was the cause of the emergency.
They then asked me what happened. I told them (airplane working great Monday & Tuesday, almost succeeded in killing me today). They asked several questions and I was able to pull out the appropriate charts to show them the answers including acknowledgement that I accepted a clearance into known forecast icing. They asked if I had declared an emergency to ATC. I told them that I didn’t know. I did know I’d told ATC about the first equipment failure.
Finally, the rain dried up, along with their questions, and we got out to inspect the aircraft. I told them that I’d only been back to the airplane once to tie it down, and that was it.
During that inspection we noted a large blue streak coming out of the top cowling. It wasn’t there on preflight. You could tell that the airplane had been washed and waxed recently (also a big help). The inspectors asked me to open the cowling. I did, and we found a large pool of 100LL and fuel trail leading to the #2 cylinder. The airworthiness inspector opinioned that the intake gasket had failed and that was our loss of power (and vacuum). They seemed rather happy that they were only doing a ramp check and not an accident investigation.
I asked then for a ride back to the FBO as the mechanic-passenger wanted to get a ferry permit. He hadn’t seen the intake leak yet. The inspectors seized the opportunity, I saw the gleam in the one’s eyes. On the way over to the hotel, we discussed some of the new technology from the convention.
Once at the FBO, I introduced the passenger/IA mechanic/also a VFR-only pilot. Sure enough, “We have some questions, can we discuss them with you [pointed look at me] alone?” The Feds ran him through the ringer for an hour. The outcome: plane not flyable, so no ferry permit, but repair the problem thus making the plane flyable and not needing a ferry permit.
Once I got back I sent the Feds their requested copies, filled out a NASA form, and set up a date with my flight instructor. The next business day I called my FAA Safety Program Manager. She suggested several things; I did every one of them, including calling the TRACON. Speaking to the same QA guy, I found out I had declared an emergency, therefore they didn’t pursue their deviation (violation) paperwork. “You declared an emergency, what can we do?” – why they didn’t process the violation. They had called the FSDO during the beginning of my flight (the nav failure), but no one jumped into the G-car ‘til one of their own called.
As for the airplane, the intake had completely separated from the cylinder. On reviewing the ATC records and a few other things, there is no reason why I am still alive.
Some tips:
Only fly airworthy airplanes. Comply with the regs, refuse the plane if it is missing something required, even just a page missing from the AFM, or illegible and undated compass correction card.
After an emergency, don’t be afraid to tell the investigators that you need some time to calm down before answering questions. I told the first guy he’d have to wait, I invited the second to join me for lunch. The extreme stress and spatial disorientation do take a toll on the body. Even the Cops let drunks throw up before cuffing and stuffing if they are non-violent.
Further, refuse the temptation to spill your guts and show signs of weaknesses. It is quite possible that there really is a mechanical problem with the airplane and whatever happened was not pilot error. Keep the “should haves” for your CFI/ASC. You made pilot-in-command decisions based on all the available information to you at that time.
Preflight always. Although I made several mistakes in dealing with the mechanical problems, inadequate preflight was not one of them. The blue streak on the fuselage was not there on preflight. The Inspectors noted my genuine surprise at the sight of the aircraft.
Be able to give a concise weather brief to any questioners for every flight. I was able to explain the weather system moving in, my strategy for avoidance, and the acknowledgement of the freezing level. We did discuss why I accepted the clearances and what I was dealing with at the time. My decision was going through ice to get VFR was better than back though the clouds to return to the departure airport.
Fly SAFE! (as in don't do as I do ;-)
Jedi Nein
I had an interesting ramp check not too long ago. I’m sure the state complaint rule hasn’t expired yet, but if the FAA were really after my certs, they would have done something by now.
I’d just landed at a VFR-only airport in low IMC conditions with a helicopter in the pattern using the ‘any port in an emergency’ rule. I’d transmitted in the blind that I was a Cherokee on emergency descent into the field. Alas in my desire to get to the runway, I neglected the before landing checklist and tried to land too fast, too high, and without flaps.
We passed the 2/3rds point on runway used and I initiated a go around. The airplane struggled to 400 feet, and I flew the pattern at 400. Of course the helicopter tried to make another approach at the same time so I was right behind him, making a mess out of things. He sidestepped to the other runway which allowed me to make a hot, but stable approach, landing on the long runway. On final, I heard the helicopter pilot asking if I had a real or simulated emergency.
I did complete the after landing checklist. On taxi into parking, I responded on frequency that there was nothing simulated about that emergency, got into parking, ran the shutdown checklist. I then demanded that my passenger get out. I bailed, and headed for the nearest restroom.
On my way across the ramp, I heard someone whistling at me, turned, and saw the pilot from the helicopter headed my way. I didn’t stop. The first door was locked and I almost ran into the helicopter pilot who had ran across the ramp to catch me. “I need to talk to you,” he said, looking quite angry.
I told him I had to go throw up, tell the TRACON that I was still alive, and then I could deal with him. He was speechless as I continued on to the restroom. He didn’t follow me inside, but my passenger reported he had ignored the guy, too, and the guy followed him into the men’s restroom.
Inside, I let the TRACON know I was still alive and ended up talking to their QA Guru about a deviation on my initial departure. The Tower had not let Approach know I refused their departure clearance and that they had offered to RADAR identify the DME fixes. Also, I was tracking the 340 Radial (s-turns across that radial anyways. . .) not the 310 as assigned. I explained the multiple equipment failures including the VOR and the fellow stated he would be forwarding this and the tapes on to the FSDO for a possible pilot deviation, and would be calling me again within 30 minutes.
I took care of physiological needs and headed back outside.
The pilot was standing in the hallway, guarding the restrooms. I then saw the FAA related embroidery on his jacket. Not a mad helicopter pilot, a mad FAA Inspector-type helicopter pilot that had just interrupted the checkride he was giving. He was on the phone talking to someone using our N-Number. I stood a respectful distance away and waited. After that poor approach and landing, I could understand anyone FAA-related having a few questions.
I apologized for not being able to talk with him immediately and we started talking. This Inspector checked my pilot certificates, made sure I was not giving flight instruction, and said he would have "got" me if I had been scud running without a "declared emergency".
He headed back to his checkride and ten minutes later another FAA Inspector called. They wanted a ramp check. Fine. Come on out, except I am having lunch first. I wasn’t shaking, but I knew I would be soon (adrenaline let-down). I asked them to call when they arrived and I would get back to the plane ASAP.
During lunch, the let-down occurred. About an hour later the second FAA Inspector called to say he was at the airplane. I headed out into a driving rain-storm to find two Inspectors, one Ops (pilot-type), one airworthiness (mechanic-type). The mechanic-type was an Inspector I had met the previous day at a large maintenance convention. He remembered me. I think the other guy was the one that issued my ground instructor certificate ages ago.
They invited me into their car (out of the rain) and asked for my certificates, which were still in my flight bag, in the airplane. Back out into the rain… They checked the certificates, writing down all the pertinent info. Now for my currency, how many hours in last 30 days, was I flight instructing, duty day limits, passenger carrying current, and can they see my logbook? My logbook is at home in a fire- & flood-proof safe. Please send a copy of the last 90 days and if it was too many pages, we could discuss it. They seemed quite reasonable for two guys that were called out of their cozy offices to go bust some idiot in a Cherokee that couldn’t fly IFR or land.
Next they wanted to see the last 30-day VOR Check and accepted my kneeboard notation from the Monday flight. Then let’s see the aircraft’s certificates and registration. Back out into the rain… Now a request for the aircraft’s logs. Those were at the aircraft owner’s house, one state away. Would I please send them the most recent of the basic airworthiness items (annual, pilot-static, transponder, etc.) and the entry for what the mechanic found was the cause of the emergency.
They then asked me what happened. I told them (airplane working great Monday & Tuesday, almost succeeded in killing me today). They asked several questions and I was able to pull out the appropriate charts to show them the answers including acknowledgement that I accepted a clearance into known forecast icing. They asked if I had declared an emergency to ATC. I told them that I didn’t know. I did know I’d told ATC about the first equipment failure.
Finally, the rain dried up, along with their questions, and we got out to inspect the aircraft. I told them that I’d only been back to the airplane once to tie it down, and that was it.
During that inspection we noted a large blue streak coming out of the top cowling. It wasn’t there on preflight. You could tell that the airplane had been washed and waxed recently (also a big help). The inspectors asked me to open the cowling. I did, and we found a large pool of 100LL and fuel trail leading to the #2 cylinder. The airworthiness inspector opinioned that the intake gasket had failed and that was our loss of power (and vacuum). They seemed rather happy that they were only doing a ramp check and not an accident investigation.
I asked then for a ride back to the FBO as the mechanic-passenger wanted to get a ferry permit. He hadn’t seen the intake leak yet. The inspectors seized the opportunity, I saw the gleam in the one’s eyes. On the way over to the hotel, we discussed some of the new technology from the convention.
Once at the FBO, I introduced the passenger/IA mechanic/also a VFR-only pilot. Sure enough, “We have some questions, can we discuss them with you [pointed look at me] alone?” The Feds ran him through the ringer for an hour. The outcome: plane not flyable, so no ferry permit, but repair the problem thus making the plane flyable and not needing a ferry permit.
Once I got back I sent the Feds their requested copies, filled out a NASA form, and set up a date with my flight instructor. The next business day I called my FAA Safety Program Manager. She suggested several things; I did every one of them, including calling the TRACON. Speaking to the same QA guy, I found out I had declared an emergency, therefore they didn’t pursue their deviation (violation) paperwork. “You declared an emergency, what can we do?” – why they didn’t process the violation. They had called the FSDO during the beginning of my flight (the nav failure), but no one jumped into the G-car ‘til one of their own called.
As for the airplane, the intake had completely separated from the cylinder. On reviewing the ATC records and a few other things, there is no reason why I am still alive.
Some tips:
Only fly airworthy airplanes. Comply with the regs, refuse the plane if it is missing something required, even just a page missing from the AFM, or illegible and undated compass correction card.
After an emergency, don’t be afraid to tell the investigators that you need some time to calm down before answering questions. I told the first guy he’d have to wait, I invited the second to join me for lunch. The extreme stress and spatial disorientation do take a toll on the body. Even the Cops let drunks throw up before cuffing and stuffing if they are non-violent.
Further, refuse the temptation to spill your guts and show signs of weaknesses. It is quite possible that there really is a mechanical problem with the airplane and whatever happened was not pilot error. Keep the “should haves” for your CFI/ASC. You made pilot-in-command decisions based on all the available information to you at that time.
Preflight always. Although I made several mistakes in dealing with the mechanical problems, inadequate preflight was not one of them. The blue streak on the fuselage was not there on preflight. The Inspectors noted my genuine surprise at the sight of the aircraft.
Be able to give a concise weather brief to any questioners for every flight. I was able to explain the weather system moving in, my strategy for avoidance, and the acknowledgement of the freezing level. We did discuss why I accepted the clearances and what I was dealing with at the time. My decision was going through ice to get VFR was better than back though the clouds to return to the departure airport.
Fly SAFE! (as in don't do as I do ;-)
Jedi Nein
Sol Rosenberg
Unregistered User
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2003
- Posts
- 95
Yea, I seriously doubt those guys will be out at the freight ramps in the middle of the night when most of our flying is done. Last week, I got ramped at 8 am, right after a long night. I could tell this guy just woke up and hurried out to meet us all bright eyed and busy tailed due to his aftershave overpowering us in the cockpit.zuka said:
I heard of inspectors abusing their authority by riding in the cockpit and giving so called "checkrides", while at the same time having their spouses ride in the passenger section just so they can go on vacation and save on having to buy a ticket for himself.
Sol, an Inspector will be on the ramp any time he sees fit. That includes 3am, weekends, holidays, etc. It all depends on when the operator or operation is doing something that needs watching.
As to the old go on vacation "inspection". All Cockpit Enroute Inspections are recorded on a pad of sequentially numbered forms with the carbon copy that stays with the pad. The airline keeps the original copy. Each pad is signed out by the Inspector, and then signed in by The FAA office Administrative Officer. Each Enroute pad is reviewed by the FAA Office supervisor then manager and audited by several government offices, each looking for abuses. If you are found to have abused your authority you can be fired. This has happened. All Enroute Inspections must be approved by your supervisor prior to going. An Inspector cannot Enroute on a day off. If you do not have a specific job function at your destination, you cannot go. If you go anyway, you can be fired.
I am sometimes asked by ticket agents when checking in if "this flight is for business or pleasure"? On one long hard day I said to the agent while going to a back water airport in the dead of winter: "Yes, I'm going to East Backwater (not its real name) for "the season". Many people now are not going to Disneyland but find Backwater more entertaining and the up coming IN place of the year. I especially enjoy sitting in a small, uncomfortable jump seat for a two hour flight with my bad back only to stand out on a freezing ramp for the rest of the day. Then fly back in the same jump seat for a two hour flight.
I stopped and looked at the agent. She said "Dumb question, huh?" I said yes it was.
If you find an abuse, tell your boss. The IG, GAO and a few other agencies would love to hear from you.
As for the excessive after shave, I have sat in a few cockpits that made my eyes water, if i'm lucky it is just because of too much aftershave.
JAFI
As to the old go on vacation "inspection". All Cockpit Enroute Inspections are recorded on a pad of sequentially numbered forms with the carbon copy that stays with the pad. The airline keeps the original copy. Each pad is signed out by the Inspector, and then signed in by The FAA office Administrative Officer. Each Enroute pad is reviewed by the FAA Office supervisor then manager and audited by several government offices, each looking for abuses. If you are found to have abused your authority you can be fired. This has happened. All Enroute Inspections must be approved by your supervisor prior to going. An Inspector cannot Enroute on a day off. If you do not have a specific job function at your destination, you cannot go. If you go anyway, you can be fired.
I am sometimes asked by ticket agents when checking in if "this flight is for business or pleasure"? On one long hard day I said to the agent while going to a back water airport in the dead of winter: "Yes, I'm going to East Backwater (not its real name) for "the season". Many people now are not going to Disneyland but find Backwater more entertaining and the up coming IN place of the year. I especially enjoy sitting in a small, uncomfortable jump seat for a two hour flight with my bad back only to stand out on a freezing ramp for the rest of the day. Then fly back in the same jump seat for a two hour flight.
I stopped and looked at the agent. She said "Dumb question, huh?" I said yes it was.
If you find an abuse, tell your boss. The IG, GAO and a few other agencies would love to hear from you.
As for the excessive after shave, I have sat in a few cockpits that made my eyes water, if i'm lucky it is just because of too much aftershave.
JAFI
When I was a ramp rat for AE in West Backwater, two of us were cleaning windows just before midnight when we noticed two strangers walking on the ramp. I stayed next to the radio, ready to call police, while the other agent challenged them. They were two FAA Inspectors conducting an airport security check. As they didn't have proper credentials to be on the airport SIDA, we escorted them off the ramp to meet airport security. That airport had strict rules which required airport credentials along with FAA credentials to be in the SIDA.
The other airlines had crews working, including one ramper that politely asked the two Inspectors to move so he could get his cleaning cart parked. Kudos for us, fines and 'training opportunities' for the other guys.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
The other airlines had crews working, including one ramper that politely asked the two Inspectors to move so he could get his cleaning cart parked. Kudos for us, fines and 'training opportunities' for the other guys.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
Dumbledore
My Kids' Doormat
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2004
- Posts
- 113
transpac said:
That may well be but the FAA ROUTINELY gets their pee-pee whacked in court for not adhering to their own guielines for things like inspections or operational procedures.
They can say or do anything they want but if it ever comes to anything that a lawyer needs to be involved in, their missteps and procedural failures are generally easily proved and will lose them anything from their sanction against a pilot/certificate holder/mechanic to their entire case. That is, assuming the attorney is on the ball.
by the way, that delay of flight thing only applies to air carriers. If you're in your 172 and planning to leave at 11:00 AM, you might be late.
Jedi, You said: "That airport had strict rules which required airport credentials along with FAA credentials to be in the SIDA."
Some airports just dont get it. Under 49 USC 40113, An Inspector is authorized to be any where on an airport, with out any extra airport badges.
On the 110A is says:
...free and uninterrupted access ...(I won't print the rest but, read the entire paragraph the next time you see a 110A.)
Some U.S. airports just do not think they are part of the United States.
This battle has been going on for years and is above my pay grade.
Some airports just dont get it. Under 49 USC 40113, An Inspector is authorized to be any where on an airport, with out any extra airport badges.
On the 110A is says:
...free and uninterrupted access ...(I won't print the rest but, read the entire paragraph the next time you see a 110A.)
Some U.S. airports just do not think they are part of the United States.
This battle has been going on for years and is above my pay grade.
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