QX -400 News

[turbodriver]

We are completely different from Comair in the fact that we still have our own native route structure that makes us money instead of waiting for payments from a bankrupt carrier.

This reason alone is why Comair should never come up in negoiations. It needs to be repeated to Gene over and over and over and over.

We are our own standard.

 

[tomdav]

Well management is gauging the waters with the Golin Harris themed "Command Recognition" class. Trying to see where the weaknesses are which groups might be sympathetic to their ideas. We are at the very begining of the contract negotiations show...........stay tuned! We all know(and if ya don't.....listen UP) that the company wants concessions of some sort. They do NOT want to be at the top of the pay pile.

If the fleet plan shakes out the way they want it too, I agree there will not be much growth............WOW Big Suprise THERE! No growth at QX!!! So maybe no call for "concessions for growth", but don't worry they will think of something.

I'm glad I am not alone in thinking that the "command recognition" is a load of crap. Who would want to go and be a lab rat for managment. Maybe the Teamsters could hold a class for managment............Of course if they didn't want to go we could dock them a days pay, about 4.0 hrs.

 

[tomdav]

We don't fly regional standard airplanes. Regional standard is 200' DA and 1/2 visibility, not 50' DA with 600 RVR.

If that was the case then fo's back in the metro days should have made more than captains. 100da(cpt monit) with 1800rvr RAW DATA.

 

[PumpkinPony]

Sioux115, are you still DEN-based? What's the general mood out there? I think the PDX/SEA pilot group is pretty unified against concessions; I worry about DEN being on board just because there are a lot of newer pilots, ya'll never have to put up with crap from Mr Hat & The Hammer, etc. Supposedly nobody (ie ZERO pilots) showed up to the last union meeting over there.

What've you been hearing?

I don't think anyone in DEN wants paycuts either. Who does?

Re: the meeting - did you know that they changed that meeting date like the day before the meeting and rescheduled it for two days later? They didn't advertise the date change very well either. For anyone who had planned to go that made it nearly impossible to do so.

 

[The PIC]

No, I haven't lived in CA and never wish to. It's those pricks from CA who moved up to the PNW and drove up the cost of living on everyone else. Like the ol' billboard used to say down on I5 south of K-Falls, "CALIFORNIANS - you are welcome to visit our lovely state but please do not stay." Oregon - Keep it Green and Granola free!!

Cya,

CP

Nobody in cali wants to move up to this cloudy mil-dewed wonder land. Who do you think drove up the housing in CA? All those rain soaked peace love'rs who wanted to dry out.

 

[mach none]

All kidding aside, no way in hell are we getting a pay cut.

The mechanics just ratified their contract, they got a (slight, but better than a cut) raise, I'm sure that the dispatchers didn't get their ass handed to them either. (Can our local QX dispatcher here confirm this?)

Plus, the third quarter earings are out. We made money, like we have been the past couple of years.

If they come to us for concessions, I'm just going to scream.

"Market based wages" Plus the threat of outsourcing some of the flying. Mark my words.

It will be curious to see how you defend your pay especially when big brother is flying 140+ seats for 156/hour and your RJ Captains are making 115/hour flying 70 seats. I wish you luck! We will be facing the same battle in 07. Alaska will be one of the top paid carriers again.

 

[Southbound]

There should be no need for Horizon pilots to defend pay in comparison to Alaska. Back when Alaska pilots were making a real living and QX was in contract negotiations 1997-2001 there was never a comparison between 737 wages in Seattle and F28/DHC8 wages in Portland. 2 different animals. QX pilots will have to defend it compared to the rest of the poorly paid regionals out there.

On an different note, what exactly does remarketing mean? Will these DHC8's be flying divers in Belize or will they fly QX/AS passengers in some capacity in our own network? I smell a rat but can't figure out where the smell comes from.

 

[captpetefam]

Another Tangent Note...

Nobody in cali wants to move up to this cloudy mil-dewed wonder land. Who do you think drove up the housing in CA? All those rain soaked peace love'rs who wanted to dry out.

Ah... so that's why a Rambler costs $800,000... All those Rich Hippies coming down from OR. All the hippies I know live in the back of VW Van/Campers out in Florence and can barely afford their dubbies let alone a shack in LA.

Once again, California's problems come back to OR. "Uh... why are all the lights off... I bet we can steal some power from those pale-faced ducks up North."

Cya,

CP

 

[mach none]

There should be no need for Horizon pilots to defend pay in comparison to Alaska. Back when Alaska pilots were making a real living and QX was in contract negotiations 1997-2001 there was never a comparison between 737 wages in Seattle and F28/DHC8 wages in Portland. 2 different animals. QX pilots will have to defend it compared to the rest of the poorly paid regionals out there.

On an different note, what exactly does re-marketing mean? Will these DHC8's be flying divers in Belize or will they fly QX/AS passengers in some capacity in our own network? I smell a rat but can't figure out where the smell comes from.

I think you will. You have to remember that we are all part of the air group and mainline pay is going down everywhere. It will be difficult to defend your position of high pay and work rules when the mainline pay is only 40/hr more for and a/c that is at least twice as large and your "regional" brothers are making a third less. Your pay will be way out on the tip of the spear and I would suggest giving up pay before work rules. You will never get work rules back once they are gone.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I think you will. You have to remember that we are all part of the air group and mainline pay is going down everywhere. It will be difficult to defend your position of high pay and work rules when the mainline pay is only 40/hr more for and a/c that is at least twice as large and your "regional" brothers are making a third less. Your pay will be way out on the tip of the spear and I would suggest giving up pay before work rules. You will never get work rules back once they are gone.

On the other hand, perhaps we should hold the line on OUR compensation and improve OUR work rules, so when you go back to the table, you can point to us and say, "see, we need to have pay at our end of the air group that is "X" percent better than lil' bro."

I won't mind you pointing to us and saying, "we need to make "X" much more than them." But I'd prefer you didn't point to us and say, "they're making too little less than us, so take some from them."

I imagine management likes your way of thinking, though.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

On the other hand, perhaps we should hold the line on OUR compensation and improve OUR work rules, so when you go back to the table, you can point to us and say, "see, we need to have pay at our end of the air group that is "X" percent better than lil' bro."

I won't mind you pointing to us and saying, "we need to make "X" much more than them." But I'd prefer you didn't point to us and say, "they're making too little less than us, so take some from them."

I imagine management likes your way of thinking, though.

Agreed

 

[flx757]

I think all mach none is trying to say is that the Air Group is and has been, with all employee groups, adamant about getting "market based" compensation. Some have been negotiated and some imposed, but they have not wavered at all from this stance with any employee group...and I don't see the Horizon pilots being exempt. I hope you guys don't wind up with concessions, since it would have a direct impact on my household, but we are preparing for it. If it doesn't happen, then great. I would rather be prepared and see it not happen than the other way around.

Good luck to all. I definitely hope it works out for you guys. You have my support, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Southbound]

Bob Loblaw is right on.

Mach None, Remember when Horizon 70 seat jet ca's were making $70,000 after 20 years and new fo's were making $18,240/year. Maybe not. When you guys signed your pre concession contract, with nice raises in hourly pay (with language preventing you guys the right to self help and sending disputed contract items to binding arbitration) you didn't hear QX guys saying how unfair it was that 3rd year AK Fo's were making more than a 20 year QX CA...

or what about currently how senior QX fo's make less than many Alaska FA's.....

The concessions of the QX pilots were already given, for many many years, prior to the current IBT contract.

Yes, the Air Group loves the idea of 'market based compensation' for all employees but I've never heard our managers compare our pay to that of Alaska, always to like competition with like aircraft. (though this may be worse)

Our disputes won't go to binding arbitration so maybe we can sit on our current contract for a few years and see what develops. I can't see ANY of our pilots voting to give a concession to a company making money. Especially with many glaring operational inefficiencies (our "fuel strategy" for one).

 

[captpetefam]

Agreed!

On the other hand, perhaps we should hold the line on OUR compensation and improve OUR work rules, so when you go back to the table, you can point to us and say, "see, we need to have pay at our end of the air group that is "X" percent better than lil' bro."

I won't mind you pointing to us and saying, "we need to make "X" much more than them." But I'd prefer you didn't point to us and say, "they're making too little less than us, so take some from them."

I imagine management likes your way of thinking, though.

The industry does NOT need more of the same ol' "Well, they only make this so we need to pay you less" mindset. Not with companies making money like QX.

Good luck & Cya,

CP

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I think all mach none is trying to say is that the Air Group is and has been, with all employee groups, adamant about getting "market based" compensation. Some have been negotiated and some imposed, but they have not wavered at all from this stance with any employee group...and I don't see the Horizon pilots being exempt.

Oh, I don't think anyone thinks we're going to be exempt from the attempt. I just don't think there's much of an appetite or necessity to cave to concessionary demands.

On what basis should we? Company's profitable, so a bankruptcy judge won't impose an agreement on us. We're not flying contracts for bankrupt carriers. No significant plans for growth to dangle in front of us.

We are not subject to binding arbitration or no-strike provisions. What practical way does management have to impose its will upon us? Divide and conquer might be a tactic, but I pray (and believe) that won't work. Concessions for growth and/or concessions for survival won't work.

What's management going to do: lock us out if we don't agree to a new contract? Unlike the Alaska rampers, management can't just bring in Menzies to do our jobs. Yeah, there are plenty of pilots on the street, but no way to replace 700 Cat III qualified Dash-8 and RJ pilots before the company would go down the tubes. Maybe the Air Group would like to burn QX down, but I just don't see it.

If, at the end of what are sure to be long, tedious and difficult negotiations, QX pilots reject an agreement, we'll cool off, engage in self-help, and hope whoever's in the White House leaves us alone.

Besides, on the whole market-base compensation mantra: a market for anything is determined by a high price and a low price -- a range. What's wrong with trying to maintain or improve our position at the upper end of the range?

I felt really bad for the crap the Air Group just put AS guys through. But now it seems some of those same guys think, "well we got our butts reamed -- now it's your turn." How is that a helpful attitude to us or ultimately to themselves?

 

[Southbound]

I agree.

There is some point, some compensation amount that makes this job no longer worth having. The days of making $20,000 a year for a few years just because it was experience to make it to a major are over for many prospective pilots. There are few big airplane jobs worth having, either more of a reason to make QX better, not worse.

Maybe it becomes like Spain where the Iberia pilots make current Alaska type wages and the CRJ Iberia regional pilots make QX plus wages. , closing the gap between the two and making it easier for pilots to stay at a regional job they enjoy.

 

[LT. Dangle]

Anybody who thinks the command recognition day isn't a big cool-aid event, should check out this link. I pulled this link from the IBT online message board, and I strongly suggest that everybody review the IBT message board on a regular basis as well.


http://www.ibt747.org/forms/QXECommandRecognitionBlueprint.pdf

 

[mach none]

Flx757,

Thank you for summing up my position much more eloquently than I did.

They will attempt to take, rape , pillage and burn your contract for pay and benefits. I hope you can hold the line. It will get ugly there, and I will predict there will be the threat of and most likely furloughs. They have already laid the ground work with the Q400 order and the reduction of the Q200. Will you be willing to sacrifice yourself? Maybe your classmate or best friend for more pay? It will be tough.

I hope we can hold the Horizon pilot group up as an example in our negotiations. I would love to get my money back. The reason your management team has not said anything about cuts is because they needed Horizon to run on time during Alaska's summer of love. Could you imagine the doom if the Horizon pilot group was upset too?

I remember times when 18,000 per year was a lot. I remember when FOs were making 12,000 per year and qualified for welfare. All I can say is prepare for the worse and work for the best.

 

[Sioux115]

Does anyone that is familiar with our CBA know what kind of scope clause we have? It seems to be the current mantra in the regional level to add another certificate of a/c to whipsaw the pilots against each other (ie. freedumb, republic, go jets). I don't know if it is really worth the Air Group's time to do that for our upcoming negotiations but its a possibility.

 

[Southbound]

Flx757,

Thank you for summing up my position much more eloquently than I did.

They will attempt to take, rape , pillage and burn your contract for pay and benefits. I hope you can hold the line. It will get ugly there, and I will predict there will be the threat of and most likely furloughs. They have already laid the ground work with the Q400 order and the reduction of the Q200. Will you be willing to sacrifice yourself? Maybe your classmate or best friend for more pay? It will be tough.

I hope we can hold the Horizon pilot group up as an example in our negotiations. I would love to get my money back. The reason your management team has not said anything about cuts is because they needed Horizon to run on time during Alaska's summer of love. Could you imagine the doom if the Horizon pilot group was upset too?

I remember times when 18,000 per year was a lot. I remember when FOs were making 12,000 per year and qualified for welfare. All I can say is prepare for the worse and work for the best.

I agree with what you say. I think the Air Group can/has and will slash and burn any and all employee groups to get shareholder value. Did you notice the stock price was at it's 2 or 3 year high, right in the middle of the AAG sticking a knife in the backs of Alaska pilots. It is one way of doing business I suppose. They truly have no shame. Thru good times and bad they rest on this doom and gloom mantra, can't make money with this, can't make money with that, all the while building a war chest. Good for them on having a war chest, shame on them for building it using slight of hand with all employee groups. I think Alaska/Horizon has one of the best products out there. I would like to see them grow our brand using our superior product, not by taking away from employees. A 10% pay cut for the Alaska pilots would have been 'just business', the 34% pay cut you took was personal.

The Alaska pilots pay cut was criminal but don't compare your compensation to ours. $18,000 per year in 2005 dollars is not worth coming to work for today. It is nothing and it nothing 6 years ago when I came here. FO's making $18,000 a year DO qualify for welfare if they have a family.

Pilots are worth what they negotiate. You won't see the QX pilots negotiating for quite some time, not without some serious kicking and screaming. We will sit on,in the least, what we have now because anything less is not worth coming to work for.

The AAG has no intention of world domination as SWA does. The 737-800 order is for replacement and slight growth, our Q400 order is the same. They will never be able to dangle any significant growth in front of the QX pilots in exchange for a cut because they WILL NEVER GROW. Could you imagine Alaska/Horizon announcing a new city and 15 daily departures. NEVER.

I think the threat would be to outsource our flying to Mesa or some other LCC regional. If they stoop to that, you can have this place.