Questions about Gulfstream

[Ty Webb]

I certainly don't need to be educated by the likes of you.

Oh, but you do.

I don't subscribe to the bs that states that guys that go through a program like gulfstream or colgan or wherever are worth any less than you old bastards who are too stuck in the mindset that everyone has to instruct for 1200 hours to be called a worthy airline pilot.

I'm not old, I never instructed . . . . . and I never PFT'd.

Try accepting the people around you rather casting them out because you think that "I did it this way, its the only true way to become an airline pilot, so everyone should. And if they dont, then they're dead wrong."

That's be fine if we all live in a vacuum, but we don't. The job they're buying is an entry-level position for someone else. . . . for a professional pilot, not a wannabe.

People like you make me sick inside.

I'm sure professional pilots with a strong work ethic do make you sick inside- it brings out all of your shortcomings. Big surprise, there.

Talk to me in 10 years when your a sad, bitter, retired old f*ck that spent too many years cursing his chosen profession rather than enjoying it.

Heh-heh. If I can retire in ten years, I will be one lucky pilot. How about you talk to me in ten years, when you've grown up and you're out of diapers.

 

[vectors2final]

yawn....

 

[PCL_128]

Ty, just one quick question: There are many former GIA pilots at Airtran now. Many of them have been Captains on the 717 for years now. When you talk to these pilots in person do you say these same things to them? Do you make scab comparisons and call them whores? Just curious whether you really have a pair, or if you are just some idiot blowhard on an internet message board that doesn't have any balls when it comes to real life confrontation?

 

[Ty Webb]

Just curious whether you really have a pair, or if you are just some idiot blowhard on an internet message board that doesn't have any balls when it comes to real life confrontation?

Why don't you look me up and find out . . . . . Or are you just some blowhard idiot on an internet message board that doesn't have any balls when it comes to real life confrontation?

 

[PCL_128]

Why am I not surprised that you completely dodged the question? Ty, hating PFT is one thing, but hating the industry newbies that PFT out of ignorance of what it does to the profession is quite another. I PFT'd at GIA almost 5 years ago. At the time I had no idea what PFT even was. All I knew was that half a dozen flight schools were offering different "pref-hiring" and "pref-interview" courses that all promised they were the only way to a job at the airlines. I didn't know about flightinfo, so where was I to find out that PFT was not the norm for the industry? The only pilots I knew were Delta mainline pilots and a few former Eastern pilots, and none of them thought anything was unethical about GIA. So how was I to know that GIA was the wrong way to go?

Of course, after spending nearly 5 years in the industry I now know how PFT damages the profession. But at the time I had no way of knowing, and neither do the guys that are PFTing at GIA and other places right now. They aren't aware of how these things work. All they know is what they see in Flying magazine and what the recruiters at the "pilot factories" tell them. To hate these pilots for their lack of knowlege is ridiculous.

Hating newbies that don't know any better is not going to do anything to better the profession. Why don't you focus your energy on something that will actually help advance the profession instead of getting so worked up about this?

 

[Cadillac]

Pcl_128

you are wrong. Ty is right on.

 

[The_Russian]

Alright jack, I was tryin to be civilized. Here's the deal, I may not look at this board to often, true, but what I am not is new to this business and I certainly don't need to be educated by the likes of you. I don't subscribe to the bs that states that guys that go through a program like gulfstream or colgan or wherever are worth any less than you old bastards who are too stuck in the mindset that everyone has to instruct for 1200 hours to be called a worthy airline pilot. This is they way things are. Welcome to the 21st century. Try accepting the people around you rather casting them out because you think that "I did it this way, its the only true way to become an airline pilot, so everyone should. And if they dont, then they're dead wrong." Wake up and smell what youre shoveling. People like you make me sick inside. Talk to me in 10 years when your a sad, bitter, retired old f*ck that spent too many years cursing his chosen profession rather than enjoying it.

Right on!!!!

PFT'er: Any person holding a CPL or equivalent, who offers payment to any organization (other than to obtain FAA Airman Certificates, FCC Licences, etc.), to obtain employment with aforementioned organization shall be considered a PFT'er.

Ok, so that takes GIA out of that category. Nobody in the FO program buys a job. You buy time. These guys don't have the intent to get permanent hire, nor is it in the contract they sign. Students don't pay the airline, they pay the academy. Thus, as I have been saying, GIA is NOT PFT.

Ty, just one quick question: There are many former GIA pilots at Airtran now. Many of them have been Captains on the 717 for years now. When you talk to these pilots in person do you say these same things to them? Do you make scab comparisons and call them whores? Just curious whether you really have a pair, or if you are just some idiot blowhard on an internet message board that doesn't have any balls when it comes to real life confrontation?

No, he doesn't. He never will. He wouldn't say any of this crap to anyones face.

you are wrong. Ty is right on.

No, he is wrong. GIA is not buying a job, nor are we bringing the industry down. We are not taking jobs away because GIA hires lots of pilots into permanent positions. Those positions are earned by the pilots that filled them.

Sorry we did it a different way than you "heros of the sky". Please go get some, so you are not so danm angry at your fellow pilots. And who cares if we have scabs at our airline? ALL OF YOUR AIRLINES HAVE SCABS TOO!!!! You fly with scabs just like we have to. Most of the people you fly with now BOUGHT THEIR JOB!!!!! So get used to it. Judgement of a pilots "worthiness" should only come down to the picket line. If they cross, then they are to be shunned. Also please do not comment or spread beef about GIA unless you have been to our building and seen what goes on. I CFI'ed for 3 years and have a lot of experiance in this industry. I have not seen an academy that holds their students to higher standards.

Good night, and shut up. Please.

 

[Ty Webb]

You're a fool, Russian. You paid $20,000. to sit in the right seat of a ratted-out King Air and be treated like dirt, and for what? So you could try to get ahead of someone else who paid their dues? And then you have the gall to come on this board and bad-mouth LCC pilots.

What an idiot . . . .and, now thousands of pilots know to be on the lookout for a Russian woman with Gulfstream on her resume. Good luck ever getting a real job in this country. Better start renewing those contacts at Air Turkmenistan. Seems like your skill set will be just what they're looking for.

 

[Captain Overs]

Let me tell ya bud, sure am enjoying that EMB-170. Worked hard to get where I am now and I am blessed and lucky to have been able to get into that airplane. Yes, I know the pay sucks and I, like a lot of others on here, have spent a lot of money to get my ratings and to start out at...well making peanuts, yeah sucks...


I think that is why you are called a "whore". What a rationale! I love flying so much I'll do it for nothing. No wonder Mesa and you guys pay *hit! There will always be people willing to fly for free just because they love it!


By the way Russsian you're a jackass too!

 

[Flyin Tony]

I've got an @$$hole... and it definitely does stink.

We know...... The_Russian told us

 

[The_Russian]

You're a fool, Russian. You paid $20,000. to sit in the right seat of a ratted-out King Air and be treated like dirt, and for what?

Vs 20K to fly a dutchess around with some other idiot! The choice was simple. Especially after seeing the results the program gets. The numbers they post are the truth. All of the kids I taught to fly were flying jets while I was giving some rich guy in his king air 100 a side. I have never been lied to or treated like dirt at GIA. We have our problems with the company, but that is what the union is for.

So you could try to get ahead of someone else who paid their dues? And then you have the gall to come on this board and bad-mouth LCC pilots.

I paid my dues. Three years as a CFI. Please don't question that. I continue to instruct today and enjoy it very much. Also, i never said anything about the pilots or employees of LCCs. Please get your facts straight. I was talking about their managment. You folks need to learn to read intead of assume. Notice how none of you actually responeded to anything I wrote. Becasue I am right and you are wrong. Also, you are very much out of line here. None of you know anything about GIA except rumor and opinion.

What an idiot . . . .and, now thousands of pilots know to be on the lookout for a Russian woman with Gulfstream on her resume. Good luck ever getting a real job in this country. Better start renewing those contacts at Air Turkmenistan. Seems like your skill set will be just what they're looking for.

This website will have no effect on my future. You obviously don't know me.

---------------------------------------------------
Continue thinking I am an idiot because you don't agree with me. Continue your rampage against Gulfstream so you have something to make you feel good about yourself and all the mistakes you have made. Lets see all of you stand up to management like the GIA pilots did five years ago. Your judgement of this airline is based on fiction and jealousy. Thus, the daddy comments. We do not proclaim to be the best, but we certainly don't deserve this sh1t from angry, disgruntled folks like yourselves. We are lest than 0.000000001% of any problems related to this industry. We have some of the best pay and work rules in the country. And we have some of the coolest people to hang with. You guys really need to find something worth while to b1tch about. Or join a support group.

Yes, you are acting like moronic children. You should have your non-aviation friends read some of your posts. My roomate said: "Pilots really say bad things like that about each others airline? What a bunch of dorks!"

 

[smellthejeta]

Don't worry Russian, I'm doing my part to raise the bar in the pilot ranks... I'm staying out of it! Yup, $120k for Riddle, $30k for GIA is just too rich for my blood. This industry is on the express train south as long as you guys will do "whatever it takes" for that coveted PIC time.

 

[jbDC9]

Methinks The Russian is in denial about Gulfstream being PFT. She (or he?) keeps denying that GIA is PFT, but when in reality, they're the poster child or true definition of PFT. Anytime the subject pops up, she(he) spouts off in GIA's defense. Seems like a lost cause...

Any isn't the whole PFT debate a well beaten dead horse anyway?

 

[Captain Overs]

Russian,


You claim that you were a CFI for three years? How could you instruct for 3 years and still find the need to pay to attend GIA? Sounds to me like you're either a pilot lacking some skills or got some bad advice. I don't know anyone who instructed who had to pay to fly at GIA.

As far as your "roomate" goes....Boo Hoo! Sounds like a made up story to me. Kinda like I know a friend of a friend of a friend who has a cousin....ect. You get my point.

 

[Ty Webb]

Vs 20K to fly a dutchess around with some other idiot!

Well, at least you would have been among your own.

Notice how none of you actually responeded to anything I wrote. Becasue I am right and you are wrong.

No one responds to your arguments because they are so illogical and childish that they aren't worth the electrons they are written with.

We have some of the best pay and work rules in the country.

Here's another "job" offer for you . . . . I'll get you a job in the right seat of an RJ. You pay me $25K for 250 hours, and I'll pay you $60. per hour . . . .then you can be the highest-paid first year CRJ in the country . . . . .

Come to think of it, Russian . . . . you are right where you deserve to be. Hope you stay there for a long, long time . . . hell, I hope you become the Chief Pilot at Gulfstream . . . . it would serve everyone in that program right!

Poetic Justice.

 

[The_Russian]

You are all lonely a$$holes.

I am so sick of hearing people saying that they "Paid thier dues"

and Russian....you are the industries whore.

Then why do you expect it? I'm so sick and tired of people saying that we don't. You are an a$$hole Wayback.

Don't worry Russian, I'm doing my part to raise the bar in the pilot ranks... I'm staying out of it! Yup, $120k for Riddle, $30k for GIA is just too rich for my blood. This industry is on the express train south as long as you guys will do "whatever it takes" for that coveted PIC time.

I'm not rich either. Attending riddle out of my own pocket and I am in less debt than any Academy grad from DCA, Pan Am, FSI, etc.

Methinks The Russian is in denial about Gulfstream being PFT. She (or he?) keeps denying that GIA is PFT, but when in reality, they're the poster child or true definition of PFT. Anytime the subject pops up, she(he) spouts off in GIA's defense. Seems like a lost cause...

Any isn't the whole PFT debate a well beaten dead horse anyway?

I am definatly not in denial. You folks are streching the term to INCLUDE GIA because you don't like us. I didn't buy my job. I was recommended into it after completing a timebuilding program/internship/training program. And yes, I am sooo danm tired of everybody flaming GIA. We are among your ranks at most all airlines and you shouldn't talk like this about your brothers.

You claim that you were a CFI for three years? How could you instruct for 3 years and still find the need to pay to attend GIA? Sounds to me like you're either a pilot lacking some skills or got some bad advice. I don't know anyone who instructed who had to pay to fly at GIA.

As far as your "roomate" goes....Boo Hoo! Sounds like a made up story to me. Kinda like I know a friend of a friend of a friend who has a cousin....ect. You get my point.

Because I didn't have any multi time to get a job. At the time only one regional was hiring and that was Great lakes. After having a lot of experience with GIA (worked there as a CFI), I was offered a job by Great Lakes if I completed the program at GIA. All of my friends and students that entered the program had jobs way before I did and I was depressed pumping fuel. So I got a loan from Key Bank and did it. Best thing I ever did for myself. GL stopped hiring and I didnt care because now my experience could take me anywhere. I decided to stay at GIA after being offered a job. I happen to love my job at GIA.

No the roomate story actually happend. She came in to see wtf I was doing for so long.

No one responds to your arguments because they are so illogical and childish that they aren't worth the electrons they are written with.

No because you have nothing to say to counter the argument. Because you really don't know anything about my airline a$$hole. You just come on here and add your opinions from your twisted angry mind to hurt your fellow pilots.

Here's another "job" offer for you . . . . I'll get you a job in the right seat of an RJ. You pay me $25K for 250 hours, and I'll pay you $60. per hour . . . .then you can be the highest-paid first year CRJ in the country . . . . .

No thank you, I don't think paying for a job is right. Are you frustrated?? Maybe it is because YOU don't understand Mr. Ty Webb.

Come to think of it, Russian . . . . you are right where you deserve to be. Hope you stay there for a long, long time . . . hell, I hope you become the Chief Pilot at Gulfstream . . . . it would serve everyone in that program right!

That would be great! But I like my Chief now and I need some PIC time and years of service to qualify! You know that Ty. Or do you?

Twenty four more every month from GIA in the past 10 years. We are out there. Remember that. You might be flying with one of us today. Good luck to you all. I hope your additudes on here aren't the way you really are. You would be very hard to deal with!

 

[B190Captain]

Russian,


You claim that you were a CFI for three years? How could you instruct for 3 years and still find the need to pay to attend GIA? Sounds to me like you're either a pilot lacking some skills or got some bad advice. I don't know anyone who instructed who had to pay to fly at GIA.

As far as your "roomate" goes....Boo Hoo! Sounds like a made up story to me. Kinda like I know a friend of a friend of a friend who has a cousin....ect. You get my point.

Then you don't know many people at all. There were quite a few CFI's II's and MEI's that went to GIA while I was there. Some were good pilots and some couldn't fly themselves out of a box if their life depended on it.

As for Mr. Webb, you tend to insult everyone that went to GIA. There are many among your peers at AirTran that I know personally. Some are senior Captains and Check Airmen. Do you express the same opinions to them?

Let's not forget that AirTran was once Value Jet and they PFT'd. I must add that those 9's were pretty ratty as well.

Don't misunderstand me AirTran has come along way from those dark days and there are many folks that I know there that are good people. Try to represent your airline in a more positive manner rather than staining it with useless bickering.

My $.02 cents.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Well, was either flying the cessna 402 around for 50 bucks an hour and having no life OR get out of the crappy 135 industry and start flying jets. Since my last jobs were not going to get a turboprop/jet since they were happy in their little niche they were in (nothing wrong with that) I decided to say screw it and apply to the airlines. Yes, I think it is wrong that starting out FOs are paid so low however the benefits are what makes it better. All of my 135 jobs and hell, flight instructing also didnt have any. Take the good with the bad....

So if Im a whore b/c Im flying a jet for peanuts... sorry, I did not make the rules and didnt make the pay scale but I want to fly left seat someday in a jet and I think the airlines is the best way to go. HAPPY FLYING YALL

KEEP THE LOVE FLOWING!

 

[EMB170Pilot]

BTW.....

Way Back Your quote beneath your name

"Got Wood" Wasnt that said during the Kerry Bush Debate????

Trying to rememebr where I heard that I almost pissed in my pants from laughing when Bush said that

 

[Ty Webb]

There are many among your peers at AirTran that I know personally. Some are senior Captains and Check Airmen. Do you express the same opinions to them?

There are no Check Airmen at AirTran who rented out the right seat at Gulfstream that I know of. If you know of any, PM me, but I have the seniority list in front of me, and I don't see a single one.

Let's not forget that AirTran was once Value Jet and they PFT'd. I must add that those 9's were pretty ratty as well.

The original Valujet guys did pay for a DC9 Type Rating, but that hasn't happened for probably 9 years, and while I don't agree with that either, there is a HUGE difference between paying for a type rating and "renting out" a required crewmember seat to "get experience". That's a distinction that you clowns don't seem to get.

Don't misunderstand me AirTran has come along way from those dark days and there are many folks that I know there that are good people. Try to represent your airline in a more positive manner rather than staining it with useless bickering.

I'm not representing ANY airline- I am speaking as Ty Webb, who has been on this board for the past 7 years in one form or another.

If you had any brains, you would be on this board urging others not to make the same mistake you did . . . instead of trying to justify why you were foolish enough to pay someone over $20,000 to try to jump ahead of dues-paying pilots.

Allright, I have made my annual contribution to the cause of prevention of PFT.

Over and Out.

 

[jbDC9]

I am definately not in denial. You folks are stretching the term to INCLUDE GIA because you don't like us. I didn't buy my job. I was recommended into it after completing a timebuilding program/internship/training program. And yes, I am sooo danm tired of everybody flaming GIA. We are among your ranks at most all airlines and you shouldn't talk like this about your brothers.

Alrighty then... You say you completed a "timebuilding program/internship/training program"... which you paid for. You were then "recommended" for a right seat gig, correct? After which you just slid right back into the seat you were just paying to sit in... tell us again how that's not PFT?

I asked this question the last time this thread came up and nobody answered it, so I'll ask it again:

Is it possible for Joe Blow freight hauling Baron pilot (lots of total and ME time) to apply to Gulfstream for an FO position and get hired for the right seat, without paying for any timebuilding programs? No bullsh!t paying any silly fees for more time, can he just get hired straight into the right seat... does GIA do that? Any GIA people care to answer?

If the answer is no (and I suspect that it is), then GIA is a PFT airline. End of story.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Met many of their FOs in the bahamas and they all PAID I even asked the same question you mentioned

Sorry I missed reading it b/c I would have said this earlier

But then again I could be wrong Maybe they do and I didnt meet any of em out in da bahamas man

 

[B190Captain]

There are no Check Airmen at AirTran who rented out the right seat at Gulfstream that I know of. If you know of any, PM me, but I have the seniority list in front of me, and I don't see a single one.


The original Valujet guys did pay for a DC9 Type Rating, but that hasn't happened for probably 9 years, and while I don't agree with that either, there is a HUGE difference between paying for a type rating and "renting out" a required crewmember seat to "get experience". That's a distinction that you clowns don't seem to get.


I'm not representing ANY airline- I am speaking as Ty Webb, who has been on this board for the past 7 years in one form or another.

If you had any brains, you would be on this board urging others not to make the same mistake you did . . . instead of trying to justify why you were foolish enough to pay someone over $20,000 to try to jump ahead of dues-paying pilots.

Allright, I have made my annual contribution to the cause of prevention of PFT.

Over and Out.

Just wait a minute, you don't know me and know what I did in my career so therefore don't generalize just because I was a pilot at GIA. I expected a little more maturity coming from someone like you but unfortunately that is not the case.

It's obvious that you lack the brainpower to understand anything so I am not going to bother trying to spoon-feed it to you junior.

Do yourself a favor and grow up.

 

[The_Russian]

Just wait a minute, you don't know me and know what I did in my career so therefore don't generalize just because I was a pilot at GIA. I expected a little more maturity coming from someone like you but unfortunately that is not the case.

It's obvious that you lack the brainpower to understand anything so I am not going to bother trying to spoon-feed it to you junior.

Do yourself a favor and grow up.

Couldn't have said it better myself Cap!!! This guy is immature and unruly. I also think he needs to get over himself. Thanks for the support.

 

[The_Russian]

Alrighty then... You say you completed a "timebuilding program/internship/training program"... which you paid for. You were then "recommended" for a right seat gig, correct? After which you just slid right back into the seat you were just paying to sit in... tell us again how that's not PFT?

I call that earning a job from hard work and dedication. Before that you are not an employee of the airline. You are a Gulfstream Training Academy pilot. You pay for the timbuilding program. The rates cover the flight time. GAA pays for the training. I understand that this is not normal. You all have a hard time understanding that it isnt PFT because we do things a little different than the normal airline. GIA reserves the right to offer jobs from the pool for permanent FO's. It is considered an honor to recieve permanent hire.

Is it possible for Joe Blow freight hauling Baron pilot (lots of total and ME time) to apply to Gulfstream for an FO position and get hired for the right seat, without paying for any timebuilding programs? No bullsh!t paying any silly fees for more time, can he just get hired straight into the right seat... does GIA do that? Any GIA people care to answer?

In the past you could instruct for the academy and get the program for free. However a few months before I came the airline had to abandon this offer because we were on the verge of going out of business. (long story) We also hire Captains off the street.

Please keep in mind that PFT is paying for training for the intent of having a job with an airline. We don't have jobs unless we get hired, and that is not the intent when the contract is signed. The intent is to go to an airline hiring GTA pilots.

You only shun and hate what you don't understand.

 

[smellthejeta]

I'm not rich either. Attending riddle out of my own pocket and I am in less debt than any Academy grad from DCA, Pan Am, FSI, etc.

In less debt less or spent less? The two are not synonymous. Was my $150k figure accurate (spent, not debt)? How much do you think the guys at DCA, Pan Am, FSI are spending? I can get the same job you got by spending less than HALF of what you spent (and that includes a four year degree). But as long as you guys insist on flying for poverty or near povertly level wages for that coveted PIC time, I'd just as soon not. It's not worth it anymore. What did you get that was worth the extra $75,000 besides debt?

Instead, I'm taking my cushy little government job that actually pays me for training... I get paid more in training than you will after 3rd or 4th year FO pay.

The whole thing with the PFT rant is that the airlines got rid of it in the late '90's. DON'T encourage them to bring it back! By expressing your willingness to pay a Part 121 carrier for training, employment, flight time, or whatever, you are showing them that it is a viable way to conduct business!

One other thing I wanted to ask... If what you are doing is not a job, why do you get paid $8/hr? Also, do you get a W2 that lists taxable wages from Gulfstream?

 

[B190Captain]

Couldn't have said it better myself Cap!!! This guy is immature and unruly. I also think he needs to get over himself. Thanks for the support.

Well, I was not supporting you. Ty pissed me off.

GIA is PFT just like anyone else that requires you to pay out of pocket to obtain training or type ratings as a condition of employment. GIA just takes it a step further.

 

[B190Captain]

One other thing I wanted to ask... If what you are doing is not a job, why do you get paid $8/hr? Also, do you get a W2 that lists taxable wages from Gulfstream?

The "probies" as we called them got the 8 bucks during the 250 hours. If they are hired they are paid 17 or 18 something and up from there. They are also protected by the IBT.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

lol Russian

Yeah I met a lot of "probies" then out in da bahamas and they all told me the 250 hour deal. It just didnt make sense. Ill pay you X amount of dollars for 250 hours of right seat ti me in a Beech 1900. What the hell will that do me?????

I'd say about 5-6 of those pft probies came into a charter company I was running since bossman was out of town and upon receiving their resume, I told them the requirment flighttime from the insurance company (very high by the way due to illegal 135 and Alleyah plane crash out in the Bahamas) and then proceeded to ask them how this 250 hours of right seat time is going to help them. None could give me a straight answer. Sad..money wasted down the drain.

 

[jbDC9]

I call that earning a job from hard work and dedication. Before that you are not an employee of the airline. You are a Gulfstream Training Academy pilot. You pay for the timebuilding program. The rates cover the flight time. GAA pays for the training. I understand that this is not normal.

Ohh, okay, I get it now. So what you're saying is that GIA is PFT. Got it. You pay the company to sit in the right seat, then you magically "become" an employee when you're "honored" with an actual paying right seat job, which is the same exact job you've been paying to do.

In the past you could instruct for the academy and get the program for free. However a few months before I came the airline had to abandon this offer because we were on the verge of going out of business. (long story) We also hire Captains off the street.

That still doesn't answer the freight dog Baron pilot question hiring into the right seat. I understand the street capt thing, they have a type rating from somewhere else... but you still haven't given a straight answer as to the freight dog wanting to hire on as an FO without breaking out the checkbook. Can it be done, yes or no?

Please keep in mind that PFT is paying for training for the intent of having a job with an airline. We don't have jobs unless we get hired, and that is not the intent when the contract is signed. The intent is to go to an airline hiring GTA pilots.

Wow, you're talking in circles trying desperately to believe it ain't PFT, and while trying to explain that it's not PFT, you spell it out that it is PFT. Your logic (or lack thereof) just keeps running around in circles. You state: "PFT is paying for training for the intent of having a job with an airline" That's exactly what you're doing! Paying for time/training for the intent of having a job with an airline! "We don't have jobs unless we get hired" And you don't get hired until you pay for your time/training... Duhhhh!!! You might retort with "you're paying for the time, not the training, it's not the same thing..." but I hate to tell you... it is the same thing, regardless of what spin you put on it.