Question for those applying to NWA,UAL,DAl

[Idiot Police]

These airlines got rid of a bunch of guys, then cut pay and compensation to an unbearable level. So unbearable that, when recalled, many of these guys would not return. But you guys come running with bells on. Doesnt that make you, at best, replacement workers? Isnt there another name for that?

 

[CRJ_Driver]

These airlines got rid of a bunch of guys, then cut pay and compensation to an unbearable level. So unbearable that, when recalled, many of these guys would not return. But you guys come running with bells on. Doesnt that make you, at best, replacement workers? Isnt there another name for that?

Capitalism?

No, it doesn't make them replacement workers. When a guy doesn't return, it's like turning down a job offer for something better.

Unfortunately, there is something better than a good ol' Legacy or major as they used to be called.

 

[C-17 Driver]

These airlines got rid of a bunch of guys, then cut pay and compensation to an unbearable level. So unbearable that, when recalled, many of these guys would not return. But you guys come running with bells on. Doesnt that make you, at best, replacement workers? Isnt there another name for that?

That sure seems like an accusatory question, kind of like asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

I am not running with bells on and no, I am not a scab. I did 10+ years of Active Duty Air Force and have recently separated and have joined the ranks of the AF Reserve. Many of my fellow military pilots are getting hired and I do not see any of them as "replacement workers." It just so happens that many of us are available to get out of the military and are taking advantage of the hiring. If my AF commitment were up back in 2002-2004ish, I probably would have signed the AF pilot bonus and stayed in for 20. That is not the case because at the time that I was available to get out, the airlines (majors and major LCC's) are on the upswing. Do you still think people like me are "replacement workers?"

Please clarify your question because it sure seems that you are lumping everyone in as scabs.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Or how about the possibility that even though things are not great at the legacies right now, they are still far better than the current operations we fly for?????

 

[John Pennekamp]

That sure seems like an accusatory question, kind of like asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

I am not running with bells on and no, I am not a scab. I did 10+ years of Active Duty Air Force and have recently separated and have joined the ranks of the AF Reserve. Many of my fellow military pilots are getting hired and I do not see any of them as "replacement workers." It just so happens that many of us are available to get out of the military and are taking advantage of the hiring. If my AF commitment were up back in 2002-2004ish, I probably would have signed the AF pilot bonus and stayed in for 20. That is not the case because at the time that I was available to get out, the airlines (majors and major LCC's) are on the upswing. Do you still think people like me are "replacement workers?"

Please clarify your question because it sure seems that you are lumping everyone in as scabs.

A little off topic, but why do you military guys always feel compelled to read us your resume?

 

[Lear70]

Just read Idiot Police's profile under his avatar. It explains everything in his post.

DAL is a different animal - most of their pilots ACCEPTED recall. We lost quite a few back to NWA, not so many to UAL.

I wouldn't blame a regional guy looking into one of those airlines and taking a gamble, especially if he/she was at one of the regionals with relatively crappy QOL.

Leave a LCC like JB or AAI for NWA or UAL? I wouldn't, but that's my personal choice based on how their pilots are being treated right now and the loss of not ONLY pay for the first few years, but QOL to an intolerably-low level.

Your mileage may vary... :beer:

 

[C-17 Driver]

A little off topic, but why do you military guys always feel compelled to read us your resume?

Saying that I did 10 years in the military is equivalent to giving you a resume? I'm not going to get in a pissing contest of military vs. civilian. Bernoulli treats us all the same.

Back on topic. I read other posts from Idiot Police and I wish I read them before my original post because I would not have wasted my time with a response.

Thanks Lear...prior LJ35 driver myself..

 

[DrewBlows]

Saying that I did 10 years in the military is equivalent to giving you a resume? I'm not going to get in a pissing contest of military vs. civilian. Bernoulli treats us all the same.

I think his point is, if your background were, say, a regional airline, you wouldn't say "I did 10+ years at a regional airline and have recently separated. Many of my fellow regional pilots are getting hired and I do not see any of them as "replacement workers." That sounds silly, but you see it a lot from military pilots.

I understand you are proud of your military service and thank you for it, but if you don't want to be the punchline to the old joke 'how do you know when a military pilot walks in a room?', you may want to keep a lower profile.

 

[Networ-King]

I think his point is, if your background were, say, a regional airline, you wouldn't say "I did 10+ years at a regional airline and have recently separated. Many of my fellow regional pilots are getting hired and I do not see any of them as "replacement workers." That sounds silly, but you see it a lot from military pilots.

I understand you are proud of your military service and thank you for it, but if you don't want to be the punchline to the old joke 'how do you know when a military pilot walks in a room?', you may want to keep a lower profile.

Thanks alot you d!ck, I just spewed coffee on my computer, through my nose, reading your funny a s s post.......

Now leave these military guys alone, so they can get hired at the airlines and mil out for the first year cause first year pay sucks........

 

[Bill Mostellar]

A little off topic, but why do you military guys always feel compelled to read us your resume?

I didn't read it as giving his resume.

Since all military pilots incur a 8 to 10 year commitment, he was explaining why he wasn't able to get out in the 2002-2004 time frame.

I don't know of any Commuter airline that has a similar commitment.

I wish you success!
William
AKA Bill
Former Moderator

 

[Huggy Bear]

I think his point is, if your background were, say, a regional airline, you wouldn't say "I did 10+ years at a regional airline and have recently separated. Many of my fellow regional pilots are getting hired and I do not see any of them as "replacement workers." That sounds silly, but you see it a lot from military pilots.

I understand you are proud of your military service and thank you for it, but if you don't want to be the punchline to the old joke 'how do you know when a military pilot walks in a room?', you may want to keep a lower profile.

I see your point, and now that it's been brought up I'll watch for myself doing it. However, there is one huge difference between your regional example and the military experience. When you started at a regional did you have to sign a 8 year contract that was really more like a ten year commitment since your 8 years don't start counting until you are through with training. At the end of that 10 years did you seriously have to consider staying because of substantial financial incentives offered for staying, not to mention the decent pension they dangle in front of you for just 10 more years of work. Can you see how it is really a bigger decision for military types than just leaving a regional for a major.

 

[Heavy Set]

These airlines got rid of a bunch of guys, then cut pay and compensation to an unbearable level. So unbearable that, when recalled, many of these guys would not return. But you guys come running with bells on. Doesnt that make you, at best, replacement workers? Isnt there another name for that?

You sound stupid. When an airline goes bankrupt and a judge is seeing over the deal, unions can't do much. Yes, pay was cut probably, but those airlines will eventually do better and wages will likely come back up, maybe not to the previous level, but higher. Some furloughed pilots may decide to stay at Airtran vs coming back to Delta or Northwest, but they will always wonder if they could attain part of what they had pre-9-11. It may get better for those airlines some day, or you can stay on your 717 or itty-bitty mini bus. But, comparing them to a skab is stupid.

 

[contrail67]

These airlines got rid of a bunch of guys, then cut pay and compensation to an unbearable level. So unbearable that, when recalled, many of these guys would not return. But you guys come running with bells on. Doesnt that make you, at best, replacement workers? Isnt there another name for that?

The guys/gals that did not come back had a choice and they might have found something better while on furlough. You cannot blame them for that..they had the choice. Do you not meet qualifications of the ones hiring?
What makes this any of your business anyway.

 

[instructordude]

These airlines got rid of a bunch of guys, then cut pay and compensation to an unbearable level. So unbearable that, when recalled, many of these guys would not return. But you guys come running with bells on. Doesnt that make you, at best, replacement workers? Isnt there another name for that?

Widebodies!

 

[TWA Dude]

It's almost funny how many self-assigned FI airline career gurus look down on pilots actually wanting to work for a legacy carrier. It's simple: when you apply at a UAL/NWA/USA and the like you're not just looking at the current crappy contracts but at the future potential. Periodic furloughs aside, where will most (younger) pilots enjoy a secure career: regionals or legacies? It seems obvious to me.

 

[contrail67]

Good post..agreed.

 

[DrewBlows]

I see your point, and now that it's been brought up I'll watch for myself doing it. However, there is one huge difference between your regional example and the military experience. When you started at a regional did you have to sign a 8 year contract that was really more like a ten year commitment since your 8 years don't start counting until you are through with training. At the end of that 10 years did you seriously have to consider staying because of substantial financial incentives offered for staying, not to mention the decent pension they dangle in front of you for just 10 more years of work. Can you see how it is really a bigger decision for military types than just leaving a regional for a major.

I wasn't trying to compare a regional career to a military career, though apparently you misunderstand the situation many regional pilots find themselves in. A 10 year regional captain faces much the same dilemma as someone who is "recently separated military". He (or she) likely makes a very good living has a good schedule and has a fairly stable position in the company (as stable as any position in an airline can be). To go to a 'major' he will have to give all that up on what amounts to a long term gamble. Will the regional pilot's career be better off if he moves on? The military pilot faces the same challenges. I digress because that really wasn't my point.

To understand my point you have to know the punchline...

How can you tell if a military pilot walks into a room?


...anyone?

 

[DrewBlows]

It's almost funny how many self-assigned FI airline career gurus look down on pilots actually wanting to work for a legacy carrier. It's simple: when you apply at a UAL/NWA/USA and the like you're not just looking at the current crappy contracts but at the future potential. Periodic furloughs aside, where will most (younger) pilots enjoy a secure career: regionals or legacies? It seems obvious to me.

What you say is true in many cases (mine included), but for many long time regional pilots it simply doesn't make sense to go to a 'legacy'. Different strokes.

 

[TWA Dude]

DrewBlows: which is why I indicated "younger".

 

[DrewBlows]

DrewBlows: which is why I indicated "younger".

Right on, I missed it the first time.

 

[C-17 Driver]

I wasn't trying to compare a regional career to a military career, though apparently you misunderstand the situation many regional pilots find themselves in. A 10 year regional captain faces much the same dilemma as someone who is "recently separated military". He (or she) likely makes a very good living has a good schedule and has a fairly stable position in the company (as stable as any position in an airline can be). To go to a 'major' he will have to give all that up on what amounts to a long term gamble. Will the regional pilot's career be better off if he moves on? The military pilot faces the same challenges. I digress because that really wasn't my point.

To understand my point you have to know the punchline...

How can you tell if a military pilot walks into a room?


...anyone?

He will be the one hitting on your wife.

Excuse us for being proud of what we do. I'm sorry you feel some resentment, but it isn't going to change.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

It is great to have choices, If you have another source of income or are young enough that an investment of 5 or 6 years to break even economically is doable for you, then by all means apply to the majors because the future benefits outweigh the short term low wages. For some folks is better just to stay put or to look for other alternatives (corporate, contract work, etc.) It depends on how many years you got left and what you are looking for in the next 10, 20 years. I passed on an offer at a major that some of you might find to be your dream gig! To me it wasn't worth it. You have to make the decision that suits you and your family best

 

[DrewBlows]

He will be the one hitting on your wife.

Excuse us for being proud of what we do. I'm sorry you feel some resentment, but it isn't going to change.

I don't feel any resentment. That's not the punchline I was looking for.


How do you know when a military pilot walks in a room...

















...he'll tell you.





Just poking a little fun, don't take it too seriously.:laugh:

Hopefully you see my original point now.

 

[highsky]

He will be the one hitting on your wife.

That's funny!

 

[Scrapdog]

I don't feel any resentment. That's not the punchline I was looking for.


How do you know when a military pilot walks in a room...

















...he'll tell you.





Just poking a little fun, don't take it too seriously.:laugh:

Hopefully you see my original point now.

Dude, we saw the stupid cliche punchline well prior to you having to repeat yourself.

C-17 Driver - good on ya...very funny and yet so true.

Here's one for you Drew: How do you know when a civilian pilot walks in the room? Because he has to be the first clown to tell a stupid joke about how do you know when a military pilot walks in a room...

Sincerely - a very proud military pilot

PS - if you need my resume, please shoot me a PM.

 

[C-17 Driver]

Dude, we saw the stupid cliche punchline well prior to you having to repeat yourself.

C-17 Driver - good on ya...very funny and yet so true.

Here's one for you Drew: How do you know when a civilian pilot walks in the room? Because he has to be the first clown to tell a stupid joke about how do you know when a military pilot walks in a room...

Sincerely - a very proud military pilot

PS - if you need my resume, please shoot me a PM.

Scrap Dog, I was wondering when you were going to chime in here...

DrewBlows...no offense given or taken. I understand your point. I do not feel entitled to anything because of my military service. I'm on pins and needles like everyone else who is hoping for a decent airline job. I think that some like to talk about their "resumes" because in the active duty AF, there are not too many pilots that are still flying and have over 5000 hours. When a fighter guy has 3000+ hours, that is saying a lot, because if you were to look at his sortie count, that is a lot of up and downs and is a very respectable career total. To the person who does not know that, they would think that 3000 hours is not a big deal because they reached that milestone in their mid-20s. To give you an idea, here is an average hour count based on rank/time in service for an airlift guy (can't help out with Fighter numbers...sorry Scrap Dog)

2Lt - 2 years in service 300-700 hours
1Lt- 4 years in service 700-1400 hours
Capt- 4-10 years service: 1400-2800 hrs
Maj 10-16 yrs service (w/ 3 year desk job in the mix): 3000-4500 hrs
Lt Col 16+ yrs service 4500 hrs plus (unless he is a fast burner and hasn't flown the line since he/she was a captain and only has 1500 hrs. There are wing commanders with less than 2500 hrs TT which is pathetic in my book)
Colonel 18+ yrs service: fuggedaboudit....they don't fly...they're management.

I hope you see my point. By stating our "resume" by saying how many years we have served or how many hours we have, we are trying to give you an idea of the level of experience we have.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I see your point, and now that it's been brought up I'll watch for myself doing it. However, there is one huge difference between your regional example and the military experience. When you started at a regional did you have to sign a 8 year contract that was really more like a ten year commitment since your 8 years don't start counting until you are through with training. At the end of that 10 years did you seriously have to consider staying because of substantial financial incentives offered for staying, not to mention the decent pension they dangle in front of you for just 10 more years of work. Can you see how it is really a bigger decision for military types than just leaving a regional for a major.

Ha!

How about the current regional FO's out there...

Let's see....

Flight School Loans: $1700/month
Gross Monthly Income $1600/month

Becoming an Air Line Pilot without looking at the ROI?

Priceless....


The CIV guys in the 1990's would stuff whatever they could in thier car and drive from one sh!tty 135 operator to the next trying to get time, build time, all without getting violated... they were totally on thier own without a Defense Budget to cloth, feed and house them.... not that a stateroom on The Big Grey Boat was "housing". Medical insurance?..... couldn't afford it!

My point.....

We all bust as$ to fly jets in this country...

The MIL guys too.... heck in the MIL it is Squadron first, family second.... still married? You are one lucky SOB!

So , lets all agree that we are all cool....


Cool?

 

[Andy]

A little off topic, but why do you military guys always feel compelled to read us your resume?

PLENTY of civilian guys post what they've been doing for the last few years - ie 'I've been an RJ Capt at x for three years now...'

Why the stereotyping?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Why the stereotyping?

You mean like the stereotype that the military pilot is the one hitting on your wife.? Posted by a military pilot.

The point is that there is a perception among civilians that military pilots don't think we've sufficiently paid our dues. Many of us have been berated many times like this, especially by double breasted pilots in a jumpseat or while jumpseating.

So when we get a military pilot who we perceive to be talking down to us, we go into "here we go again" mode and flame right back. Salt in the wound from years of being told mil pilots are better, despite their overall lower flight time, because they got shot at. As said above, most of us risked our lives to get here too.

 

[C-17 Driver]

You mean like the stereotype that the military pilot is the one hitting on your wife.? Posted by a military pilot.

The point is that there is a perception among civilians that military pilots don't think we've sufficiently paid our dues. Many of us have been berated many times like this, especially by double breasted pilots in a jumpseat or while jumpseating.

So when we get a military pilot who we perceive to be talking down to us, we go into "here we go again" mode and flame right back. Salt in the wound from years of being told mil pilots are better, despite their overall lower flight time, because they got shot at. As said above, most of us risked our lives to get here too.

Wasn't aware that I was "tallking down to you" when I said I had 10 years of service. Wasn't aware that my words were salt in the wound. Wasn't aware that you risked your life as well. I said earlier that I wasn't going to get into a pissing contest about it. Someone else will take the bait on your post, but not me.

Good on you for your aviation credentials. I do not judge and refuse to judge my self-worth by comparing my situation to yours and others like you so please don't assume that I am trying to compete with anyone. Read my previous post regarding why we offer a glimpse at our backgrounds.


You're kidding... right.... about the stereotype response? That joke that Drew Blows offered up is so old an I treated it like the hanging curveball that it was and I happened to be the first one to hit. I have trouble believing you took it seriously. If you did, it might be a classic case of confirmation bias.

I am honestly trying to be cordial and gentlemanly here and if I am not, please let me know. I admit, that I didn't take the high road on the wife joke, but it seems that most of you saw the intended sarcasm. I would venture to guess that some non-mil types saw it as funny as well.

Mr. Pennekamp. For the Record: I do not see you as inferior. I do not look down on your career path. I respect that you likely worked your butt off and invested lots of personal time and money to get where you are. I too would get the daggers out if someone berated me for their perceived lack of respect and I would try to set the record straight. I simply don't see (other than the wife comment...see above regarding intended sarcasm) where anywhere in my posts where I was wearing my credentials on my sleeve.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.