Question for regional captains

[n32jk]

so why the complaining...??

Well it seemed you suggested I might need some "right seat time" to be better qualified to perform my duties.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What are your thoughts/feelings/etc about having to work with low-time pilots in the right seat? If some regionals are actually lowering their hiring mins to 400TT as stated in one of these posts, are you finding you are having to spend an extra amount of time with new-hires on their procedures, and improving their flying skills?

Almost all the low time guys will make some spectacular mistakes (me included). Even the good low time guys seem to have problems with:
(1) Being vectored on to approach at too high an altitude. This either sets off a one pilot fight with the flight control panel as the newbie tries to coerce the autopilot to capture the approach, or results in an unstable approach....
(2) Being cleared for a visual at an odd angle, or so far out that the company profile doesn't really work for them. Also - being cleared for descent at pilot's discretion. They should change the phraseology to at pilots' discretion. Descending below 10,000 feet more than 30 miles from the airport is inefficient and slow. So is accelerating to VMO in the climb.
(3) Missed approaches - the first three or four never come when you expect them and they take a couple of real world experiences to get used to.
(4) Really light airplanes - and yes after nearly 6,000 hours I can't get the landings I like out of them either.
(5) Really heavy airplanes - need more room to slow down and come down
and
(6) Anything involving ice, bad weather or women in foriegn countries.

The best policy is to ask - what is the best thing to do here? Would you configure out here?

It would be good if the training department could put some of the pilots through a couple of these scenarios. Training is too much about checking boxes and not enough about flying IMHO.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well it seemed you suggested I might need some "right seat time" to be better qualified to perform my duties.

or maybe just your attitude... but I really don't know you and the internet is a poor way to know.....

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Fins,

Excellent post. I personally don't have problems with the low time guys, as long as they realize that just because they passed a PC, they still don't know everything there is to know. Most CA's don't mind answering questions, I know that I certainly don't. I actually see it as part of the responsibility of being a CA. And no, I don't know everything, either! (But I've almost got it all figured out!)

To those FO's that this thread concerns, don't be afraid to ask. We were all there once.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Briefing to the new guys and gals:

"The left side of the cockpit is mine. The right side of the cockpit is also mine. Now shut up and don't touch anything that is red or has dust on it!"

Just jokes! The vast majority of the folks I have flown with have been fine. A good attitude, a sense of humor and a willingness to soak up some knowledge tends to make things easier.

A rockin' set of DD's doesn't hurt either!

 

[AerroMatt]

Need to re-phrase some original questions

Once again, thank you everyone for your replies. They are enlightening. I would like to ask a few more questions of you captains:

1) Do you feel you might be overburdened by trying to provide instruction to an FO in a difficult wx situation (like an approach to mins in icing conditions and poor runway situations)? Might this ever compromise the safety of the flight?

2) Do you believe you are being properly compensated for wearing two hats on one flight? (Capt and CFI, as it were)

3) How would you react to flying with someone with just 70TT in a cockpit, and lots of sim time? This is actually being suggested overseas, and I am curious what your reactions will be.

 

[Cardinal]

1) Do you feel you might be overburdened by trying to provide instruction to an FO in a difficult wx situation (like an approach to mins in icing conditions and poor runway situations)? Might this ever compromise the safety of the flight?

No, the Captain should determine how much "instruction" is taking place during difficult times. Sitting in a deice line is a great time to discuss cold-weather gotchas, the finer points of paperwork, etc, to the new FO. If workload allows, druing an arrival I can see a number of factors worth of discussion, again time permitting. But talking an FO through an approach can get sketchy. As a captain you can offer lots of input, but ultimately there is a crisp line that has to be identified, can the FO fly the procedure or not? If he can, great, and pointers may be offered. If he can't, then more drastic measures must be taken.

I'm all for letting FO's totally dick up visual approaches. I'm convinced they learn more from one missed (or almost missed) approach than 100 good ones and 10,000 words of caution from me. However I'm against learning to fly an ILS, or learning X-wind landings with paying part 121 passengers in the back. Several incidents over the past few years in which line check airman forgot their mission - prevent the new FO from damaging the aircraft and damaging the people/cargo. I've been an LCA, it's not easy to be certain. But there's no excuse for letting your charge bend the airplane. That's why we get an override. For the line captain, the same goes. It's a condition of upgrading that you'll have to babysit some FOs. Simply part of the territory. Also a reason why flight instructing prior to the airline job is so valuable. The CFI has hopefully developed the ability to teach, to correct, and to babysit during their time in the pattern. This transfers very well to the captain's seat.

2) Do you believe you are being properly compensated for wearing two hats on one flight? (Capt and CFI, as it were)

As a line check airman, no. The 28% pay premium didn't compensate for the doubled stress level and the trebled workload. The organization used IOE as a band-aid for startlingly hurried training. The instructors coax a few decent landings and an ILS out of the candidates and shuffle them through the door, making the best out of the severly limited resources at their disposal; No FTD, limited sim time, aircraft time, and human material. The "rough edges" that are then seen during IOE aren't even rough, they're downright jagged. As a line Captain, I think it's basiacally fair. There's a reason why CA's are paid 40%-ish more than the FO, and this is a large part of it. We're paid to teach, as well as excercise the judgement and employ the storehouse of wisdom that comes with experience. The small percentage of the time that line catains fly with weak FOs is just part of the territory.

3) How would you react to flying with someone with just 70TT in a cockpit, and lots of sim time? This is actually being suggested overseas, and I am curious what your reactions will be.

Simulators cannot create fear. Stress, yes. But not the raw, visceral fear of your arse in a flying beer can about to make an unscheduled arrival in a forest because numbnuts (me) negelected to keep the oil pressure gauge in the scan. Or the auto-rough felt when numbnuts (me) decides to take the C182 over the blue-water shortcut to Cape Cod, and starts wondering just how cold that water is. Or when the cockpit starts filling with smoke on the proverbial dark and strormy night (me). Or when a poorly planned summer takeoff nearly results in some tree trimming with the main gear (me). And then almost hitting a different stand of trees for the same reason during the same summer (me again). Or just the single-pilot, single-engine, night IMC over the mountains in the ice at 2am, nodding off because I've been awake for 20 hours and spent 9 of them flying, too tired to realized I'm petrified (me). Or hitting an adult doe while landing (same night). That's just a smattering of the crap that transpires during one's first 1200 hours in the general aviation world. An FO that doesn't get that experience will probably function alright, and might make a good captain - 10 or 15 years from now. But handling crazy problems on your own lays the foundations for quality decision making later on as a competent FO and as pilot in command. The JAA MCPL (Multi Crew Pilot's License) is a very bad idea. For more on that topic [URL]http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244114[/URL]

Sorry for the very long-winded, JediNein sounding post.

 

[check six]

Simulators cannot create fear. Stress, yes. But not the raw, visceral fear of your arse in a flying beer can about to make an unscheduled arrival in a forest because numbnuts (me) negelected to keep the oil pressure gauge in the scan. Or the auto-rough felt when numbnuts (me) decides to take the C182 over the blue-water shortcut to Cape Cod, and starts wondering just how cold that water is.

Reminds me of the time a buddy of mine took a friend to Dinner on Lake Superior. Returned to Twin Cities at 10pm on dark clear night. Took off from Sky Harbor (Superior WI) over water. Then headed home. Started thinking on that 100 miles between Duluth and inhabited land where he might set down if his single engine failed in the old Beech Sport.

Or when the cockpit starts filling with smoke on the proverbial dark and strormy night (me).

Another buddy of mine flew his personal light twin into Spencer IA for and interview. Came into some serious Tstorms about 50 miles southwest of that spencer airfield. Not too much weather planning there because he was so anxious to get there for the interview. Also very low on fuel because he decided against getting fuel in Sioux City.

Or when a poorly planned summer takeoff nearly results in some tree trimming with the main gear (me). And then almost hitting a different stand of trees for the same reason during the same summer (me again).

Ever try to get a Mooney to sit down on the runway at -10F on a 3000 ft runway in Minnesnowta going 80 knots?

Or just the single-pilot, single-engine, night IMC over the mountains in the ice at 2am, nodding off because I've been awake for 20 hours and spent 9 of them flying, too tired to realized I'm petrified (me).

Captain told me to get ready to deploy the drag chute on the Lear on an approach into a mountain field at 2am after the storm moved through and we were landing on what might well have been Boston Gardens.

Or hitting an adult doe while landing (same night). That's just a smattering of the crap that transpires during one's first 1200 hours in the general aviation world. An FO that doesn't get that experience will probably function alright, and might make a good captain - 10 or 15 years from now. But handling crazy problems on your own lays the foundations for quality decision making later on as a competent FO and as pilot in command. The JAA MCPL (Multi Crew Pilot's License) is a very bad idea.
Sorry for the very long-winded, JediNein sounding post.[/quote]

Check Six

 

[AerroMatt]

"The JAA MCPL (Multi Crew Pilot's License) is a very bad idea. For more on that topic [URL]http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244114
"

Cardinal,

After reading this link, I conclude that South African Airways came up with their version of the JAA MPL as a matter of Affirmative Action. This is truely amazing stuff. <shaking head>[/URL]

 

[wickedpilot]

... or has an ugly face.

Is your avatar from the game "pilot wings"?!? I remember that face of disappointment after I'd slam one in and crush the landing gear or miss the bonus pad after a skydive.

Seeing that just took me wayyyy back

 

[AutoBus]

I spied this thread at the General Info section, and thought I'd post it here with a question:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=90641

My question is this: What are your thoughts/feelings/etc about having to work with low-time pilots in the right seat? If some regionals are actually lowering their hiring mins to 400TT as stated in one of these posts, are you finding you are having to spend an extra amount of time with new-hires on their procedures, and improving their flying skills? Do you think you would have an extra burden on your hands if your airline started hiring people with under 200TT?

I'm not trying to flame here. Just wondering what the consensus might be on this topic. The way things are going, it just may become a reality in the near future.

Not a problem, the captains are low time and clueless too!