Question for PCL128 and Rez O Lewshun....

[JoeMerchant]

As the two biggest ALPA cheerleaders, can either of you two explain the AFL-CIO stance on illegal immigration?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/021700-02.htm


http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/SSA_Related_Info/ssa003.htm

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, a thread specifically for me! I'm flattered, Joe.

I went and did a little research, and it appears that the AFL-CIO is indeed in favor of amnesty for 6 million illegals. I'll let Rez defend this one, because I'm on your side this time, Joe. :beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow, a thread specifically for me! I'm flattered, Joe.

I went and did a little research, and it appears that the AFL-CIO is indeed in favor of amnesty for 6 million illegals. I'll let Rez defend this one, because I'm on your side this time, Joe. :beer:

Anytime we agree, that is progress..... The unions aren't all about protecting the little guy... they are a business just like management....

Don't trust either side, and question anything that either side says....

:beer:

 

[PCL_128]

Anytime we agree, that is progress..... The unions aren't all about protecting the little guy... they are a business just like management....

Don't trust either side, and question anything that either side says....

:beer:

I'm not necessarily agreeing that the AFL-CIO is doing this as a business decision. That's certainly possible (I don't know the AFL-CIO Officers like I know the ALPA Officers, so I can't vouch for them), but it's also possible that their stated reasons for supporting amnesty are genuine. Whatever their true reasons, I disagree with the logic either way. The laws must be enforced, and even strengthened. Lou Dobbs pretty much echoes my sentiments on the immigration issues.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not necessarily agreeing that the AFL-CIO is doing this as a business decision. That's certainly possible (I don't know the AFL-CIO Officers like I know the ALPA Officers, so I can't vouch for them), but it's also possible that their stated reasons for supporting amnesty are genuine. Whatever their true reasons, I disagree with the logic either way. The laws must be enforced, and even strengthened. Lou Dobbs pretty much echoes my sentiments on the immigration issues.

Your far too believing of unions.... Want to discuss the unions hiring homeless people for $1 above minimum wage and no benefits to picket??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/23/AR2007072302011.html

Why doesn't the union provide a "living wage" and health benefits to these "employees"?....

 

[PCL_128]

Your far too believing of unions....

Unions certainly aren't perfect. No organization composed of people will ever be perfect, simply because people aren't perfect. Within any organization, no matter how well organized and well-meaning, you will always find someone that has ulterior motives.

I don't answer for all unions. When I defend members of the ALPA leadership, it is because I know most of them very well and know what their beliefs and motives are. There are also ALPA leaders that I won't defend because I happen to know them and know that their motives are suspect.

Want to discuss the unions hiring homeless people for $1 above minimum wage and no benefits to picket??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/23/AR2007072302011.html

Why doesn't the union provide a "living wage" and health benefits to these "employees"?....

Notice that the union discussed here is not an AFL-CIO affiliated union. This union is part of the Change to Win group, which was created after several unions, including the IBT, broke away from the AFL-CIO and left them with millions in unpaid dues. You'll never find me defending these guys, that's for sure. To the best of my knowledge, no AFL-CIO affiliated union has hired non-members to walk picket lines.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Unions certainly aren't perfect. No organization composed of people will ever be perfect, simply because people aren't perfect. Within any organization, no matter how well organized and well-meaning, you will always find someone that has ulterior motives.

I don't answer for all unions. When I defend members of the ALPA leadership, it is because I know most of them very well and know what their beliefs and motives are. There are also ALPA leaders that I won't defend because I happen to know them and know that their motives are suspect.

Do you want to defend the ALPA move at the 2002 BOD to change the ALPA President pay from the avg. top 6 carriers to the avg. top 3 carriers? You know why that was done don't you? I've spoken with a member of the compensation committee and it was railroaded through..... What is the "explanation" for that?

 

[PCL_128]

Do you want to defend the ALPA move at the 2002 BOD to change the ALPA President pay from the avg. top 6 carriers to the avg. top 3 carriers?

Sure. I think the President's salary (and the compensation packages of the other three Officers for that matter) should be increased even more. I spoke with several members of the compensation committee at last year's BOD to voice my concerns that the current compensation package does not offer enough incentive to attract the best candidates. One member of the committee proposed having an outside executive compensation consultant hired in order to evaluate the current packages and make recommendations to future BOD committees. That proposal was not accepted, but I think it was a good idea. The Association President is vastly underpaid for the amount of work and responsibility that he has.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sure. I think the President's salary (and the compensation packages of the other three Officers for that matter) should be increased even more. I spoke with several members of the compensation committee at last year's BOD to voice my concerns that the current compensation package does not offer enough incentive to attract the best candidates. One member of the committee proposed having an outside executive compensation consultant hired in order to evaluate the current packages and make recommendations to future BOD committees. That proposal was not accepted, but I think it was a good idea. The Association President is vastly underpaid for the amount of work and responsibility that he has.

Well there we have it..... The leadership should take the same hit that the membership takes.... ALPA protests excessive executive compensation, but does the same thing with it's "executives"....

After 9/11, many ALPA carriers took concessions. Prior to that, the ALPA National President pay was based on the average of the highest 6 ALPA carriers. At the BOD after 9/11, it was decided that this pay should be based on the average 3 highest pay... This allowed DW to still be paid over $400,000 per year with a full ALPA pension (about $120,000 per year).... Defend it all you want, but it doesn't sell with the avg. ALPA member who took it in the shorts and continues to take it in the shorts.... sounds just like management.....

 

[PCL_128]

The leadership should take the same hit that the membership takes....

That may make you feel better, but it won't attract the best candidates for the job.

ALPA protests excessive executive compensation, but does the same thing with it's "executives"....

There's a key difference, Joe. Executives at the airlines should take equal cuts because they're the ones demanding that their employees take cuts. ALPA's leaders are not the ones demanding that their members take pay cuts, so there's no need for them to lead by example as airline managers should do. It's hypocritical for pilots to complain about their own unnecessary paycuts but then demand that ALPA's President also take an unneeded cut.

Defend it all you want, but it doesn't sell with the avg. ALPA member who took it in the shorts and continues to take it in the shorts..

That's because the average ALPA member isn't thinking, he's feeling. Reacting and basing policy on emotion is a bad idea. That's why we have committees of informed reps to make these decisions.

 

[DashTrash400]

You two gonna get it over with and f*#K or what? :laugh:

Not that I don't appreciate some honest debate on FlightInfo for once. But I very seriously doubt either of you are gonna change the other's mind.

 

[Sawmill]

As the two biggest ALPA cheerleaders, can either of you two explain the AFL-CIO stance on illegal immigration?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/021700-02.htm


http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/SSA_Related_Info/ssa003.htm

Simple: More people means more potential candidates to extort money out of.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's because the average ALPA member isn't thinking, he's feeling. Reacting and basing policy on emotion is a bad idea. That's why we have committees of informed reps to make these decisions.

The average member is conditioned to believe that ALPA or unions is a personal career valet. It is ALPA's fault for creating this mindset and it needs to change.

Recall, ALPA National salaries are voted via democracy. PCL128 has it right in that too attract talent there must be some sort of incentive. Even after that the candidate must win an election. If there was no incentive then the guys stepping up to th plate would be like Joe Merchant or other ego driven pilots with limited poliitcal skills set. Can you, the reader, pick out the next ALPA President in your crewroom?

Also, keep in mind that the paycuts of the last five years were voted on by the membership. MEC's find out what the members want, negotiate it and then present the TA for vote. ALPA members track record in particapting in democracy is pretty weak. One would think they are communists and not responsible americans.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=99124

The AFL-CIO? Dave Behncke, ALPA's founder, (you new that right Joe?) joined the AFL-CIO back in the 1930's without telling the council, because he knew it was the right thing to do. It was. It has paid dividends in the past. ALPA, for its small size in Wash DC is known as an issue oriented union, whereas the AFL-CIO can be very party polarized.

ALPA isn't controlled by the AFL-CIO. ALPA is its own man on the Hill and we do well.


Joe... you gotta stop. Look man, ALPA has problems, but it does allot of good too. You are getting Ken Starr like trying to find something to hang your hat on....

If ALPA is so bad, then what are the alternatives? And why look at alternatives when democratic particaption at ALPA is a minority?

The thing with guys like PCL128 is he has seen how to get involved and effect positive change. Pilots think if they join a union then are not being loyal to thier company. Has anyone seen company loyalty around here? One needs some type of representation in this career. Sure ALPA can do better, but so can the membership.

 

[John Pennekamp]

As the two biggest ALPA cheerleaders, can either of you two explain the AFL-CIO stance on illegal immigration?

It's fairly simple, really. The AFL-CIO realized that opposition isn't going to stop illegal immigrants from crossing the border and stealing American jobs. Just like criminalization of marijuana doesn't stop people from smoking it and growing it. Just like ALPA realized that opposing the change to age 65 will only disinclude them from the debate.

So the AFL-CIO decided to embrace the immigrants. After all, they're all potential union members one day. They'll be much more likely to join a union that fought for their citizenship, and after all, illegal immigrants can't join unions. Legal ones can.

Make no mistake, unions are a business. While I have issues with the way ALPA is run (it's not really a union) I am one of the biggest cheerleaders for the labor movement, in general. But I'll be the first to admit that unions are a business. The workers are the customer. The goods & services are the contracts and job protections. None of this makes them bad for the workers, per se.

You're a smart guy... I think you already knew all this. You just wanted to shake the tree. Bored?

 

[XJohXJ]

Anytime we agree, that is progress..... The unions aren't all about protecting the little guy... they are a business just like management....

Don't trust either side, and question anything that either side says....

:beer:

Yeah, unions have budgets, and employees, and need to manage money. So what? In order to act as a unified group, which is 100% critical in countering managements rape tactics, pilots need leaders. Having a leader means you must trust them. If they fail, then you get a new leader. If not, then you must trust them. If we can't trust unions, who are we supposed to trust?

Every man for himself, in labor, translates to management wins.

 

[XJohXJ]

Oh, by the way, if you want to change AFL-CIO policy, get involved, go to the meetings, and talk to the people who affect policy. Don't whine to ALPA pilots, who, quite frankly, have enough crap to deal with already. Illegals can't be pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, unions have budgets, and employees, and need to manage money. So what? In order to act as a unified group, which is 100% critical in countering managements rape tactics, pilots need leaders. Having a leader means you must trust them. If they fail, then you get a new leader. If not, then you must trust them. If we can't trust unions, who are we supposed to trust?

Every man for himself, in labor, translates to management wins.

"Every man for himself" is exactly what we have in ALPA...... what does this translate into?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Oh, by the way, if you want to change AFL-CIO policy, get involved, go to the meetings, and talk to the people who affect policy. Don't whine to ALPA pilots, who, quite frankly, have enough crap to deal with already. Illegals can't be pilots.

Oh, by the way, if you don't understand the significance of the AFL-CIO defending illegal aliens, then you don't really understand the definition of hypocrisy...

 

[belchfire]

Sure. I think the President's salary (and the compensation packages of the other three Officers for that matter) should be increased even more. I spoke with several members of the compensation committee at last year's BOD to voice my concerns that the current compensation package does not offer enough incentive to attract the best candidates. One member of the committee proposed having an outside executive compensation consultant hired in order to evaluate the current packages and make recommendations to future BOD committees. That proposal was not accepted, but I think it was a good idea. The Association President is vastly underpaid for the amount of work and responsibility that he has.

Ya know, if his pay was capped at top Captain pay at the lowest paid group he represents things would fracking change in a hurry!!!

By giving him top pay average, now he has his and screw the little guy...it's human nature.

Funny Joe, I thought that I was the only one that thought unions had become big business in their own right and ceased representing their members...

Why should a CEO that stays at the helm of a company that is bordering on bankruptcy two to five years get a many-million dollar buyout when he just stole the retirement of crews that had been moving metal for 20 years?

 

[PCL_128]

Ya know, if his pay was capped at top Captain pay at the lowest paid group he represents things would fracking change in a hurry!!!

Yeah, things would change in a hurry, alright. All the guys with education, experience, and know-how would drop out of union work and return to the line so they could get their normal income back. You'd be left with a few junior regional guys with no experience who just want the full-time buy and fancy title on a business card. You'd be begging Prater and friends to come back within a few months.

By giving him top pay average, now he has his and screw the little guy...it's human nature.

Yeah, that's why these guys work 20-hour days, 7 days a week, and only get to go home one weekend a month, if that. I wish some of you guys would hang around Herndon for a couple of days and see exactly what these people do for you.

Why should a CEO that stays at the helm of a company that is bordering on bankruptcy two to five years get a many-million dollar buyout when he just stole the retirement of crews that had been moving metal for 20 years?

What does that have to do with unions?