Question for PCL128 and Rez O Lewshun....

[John Pennekamp]

"Every man for himself" is exactly what we have in ALPA...... what does this translate into?

My friend, you are such a hypocrite. You call for ALPA to stop the disunity, but when you're approached in the crew lounge by a bunch of pilots who want to know why you're not on board with the pilot group (by taxiing fast, picking up time, doing ASA favors, etc) you tell us "I'm my own man, ALPA is all about itself, and so am I".

Unity starts at home. ALPA will always be all about number one when the rank and file like you acts that way.

 

[XJohXJ]

Oh, by the way, if you don't understand the significance of the AFL-CIO defending illegal aliens, then you don't really understand the definition of hypocrisy...

Blah blah blah Joe. Get involved if you want change. That's how it works in this country. If you want to get rid of ALPA, start a decertification at your current airline. If it wins, you win. If it loses, at least you tried. That's how democracy works.

Yes, I do understand why the AFL-CIO would support a reasonable path to legalization (regardless of my personal feelings on the issue). Do you? Why don't you explain? You rant about it, but you haven't said, specifically, keeping reality in mind, what your specific problem with the issue is.

AFL-CIO wants to increase their membership. The jobs being done by illegals now should actually be Unionized jobs. They are straight up union labor jobs. If they can get them unionized again, and raise the pay to where it should be (those corporations sure do love their illegal alien labor supply-help that labor to become legal, and raise the pay), maybe citizens would go for those jobs again, reducing demand for illegals. Thousands upon thousands of middle class families rose up out of unionized slaughterhouse jobs and other union labor shops. Nowadays, with "every man for himself" and economic anarchy, the middle class are dying out. AFL-CIO is trying to do something to make things better for labor. Are you doing anything, Joe?

ALPA want to increase their membership, as well. It is not about personal money, it is entirely about national strength and national political and economic power. Without numbers, and unity, no repairs to the current damage can be made. It really is that simple.

 

[XJohXJ]

By the way Joe, do you also blame ALPA when it's a rainy day, or drought has struck, or it's a really cold winter?

 

[737 Pylt]

My friend, you are such a hypocrite. You call for ALPA to stop the disunity, but when you're approached in the crew lounge by a bunch of pilots who want to know why you're not on board with the pilot group (by taxiing fast, picking up time, doing ASA favors, etc) you tell us "I'm my own man, ALPA is all about itself, and so am I".

Unity starts at home. ALPA will always be all about number one when the rank and file like you acts that way.

Holy crap on a stick! I agree with JP on this one!
Joe, much like a neutered dog, just doesn't get it!

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

My friend, you are such a hypocrite. You call for ALPA to stop the disunity, but when you're approached in the crew lounge by a bunch of pilots who want to know why you're not on board with the pilot group (by taxiing fast, picking up time, doing ASA favors, etc) you tell us "I'm my own man, ALPA is all about itself, and so am I".

Unity starts at home. ALPA will always be all about number one when the rank and file like you acts that way.

I'm not a "hypocrite", I am a realist.... ALPA will never change, and pilots will never change.....

I would like ALPA to change, but it won't.... I am picking up as much open time as I can and I will not support ALPA until it changes..... I don't wear an ALPA pin any longer and I could really care less if ALPA survives.... ALPA brought this on itself, and if it doesn't want to change, then it needs to suffer the consequences....

The average ALPA pilot, or any airline pilot for that matter, will always look out for number one first, and number one ain't me.... there for I need to look out for number one.... ALPA isn't going to do it....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Blah blah blah Joe. Get involved if you want change. That's how it works in this country. If you want to get rid of ALPA, start a decertification at your current airline. If it wins, you win. If it loses, at least you tried. That's how democracy works.

Yes, I do understand why the AFL-CIO would support a reasonable path to legalization (regardless of my personal feelings on the issue). Do you? Why don't you explain? You rant about it, but you haven't said, specifically, keeping reality in mind, what your specific problem with the issue is.

AFL-CIO wants to increase their membership. The jobs being done by illegals now should actually be Unionized jobs. They are straight up union labor jobs. If they can get them unionized again, and raise the pay to where it should be (those corporations sure do love their illegal alien labor supply-help that labor to become legal, and raise the pay), maybe citizens would go for those jobs again, reducing demand for illegals. Thousands upon thousands of middle class families rose up out of unionized slaughterhouse jobs and other union labor shops. Nowadays, with "every man for himself" and economic anarchy, the middle class are dying out. AFL-CIO is trying to do something to make things better for labor. Are you doing anything, Joe?

ALPA want to increase their membership, as well. It is not about personal money, it is entirely about national strength and national political and economic power. Without numbers, and unity, no repairs to the current damage can be made. It really is that simple.

Illegal imigration drives down labor costs and it is a security issue..... If the AFL-CIO is more concerned with defending potential members who may be security threats and are illegal aliens.... then I believe they are out of touch with their membership.....

As usual, unions are more about increasing membership and dues than protecting American citizens....

 

[XJohXJ]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my post.

Yes, you bet, we all agree that illegal immigration drives down wages. The whole point of the AFL-CIO supporting a path to legalization is to bring those wages BACK UP again.

I agree that illegal immigration should not happen. However, it does, and rather than hang up on how things should be, we might be better off to respond to how things actually ARE. There is simply no way in heaven or h3ll for our nations underfunded law enforcement and immigration forces to remove millions upon millions of humans from our country. It just ain't gonna happen, regardless of if it SHOULD happen. So, these people are here. How can we improve things for our citizens? How about working positively to get them into the system, paying taxes, and eliminating the downward pressure they put on wages.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my post.

Yes, you bet, we all agree that illegal immigration drives down wages. The whole point of the AFL-CIO supporting a path to legalization is to bring those wages BACK UP again.

I agree that illegal immigration should not happen. However, it does, and rather than hang up on how things should be, we might be better off to respond to how things actually ARE. There is simply no way in heaven or h3ll for our nations underfunded law enforcement and immigration forces to remove millions upon millions of humans from our country. It just ain't gonna happen, regardless of if it SHOULD happen. So, these people are here. How can we improve things for our citizens? How about working positively to get them into the system, paying taxes, and eliminating the downward pressure they put on wages.

How about enforcing the law and shipping them back to where they came from and securing the border to prevent more from coming in..... Is that too much to ask?

The majority of ALPA members are conservative in nature.... If ALPA and the AFL-CIO continue to thumb their nose at those members, then you can expect more of the same.... little unity and little PAC money.... ALPA and AFL-CIO's choice.....

 

[XJohXJ]

How about enforcing the law and shipping them back to where they came from and securing the border to prevent more from coming in..... Is that too much to ask?

Practically speaking, yes.

How in the world is our government going to round up and process and deport MILLIONS of people? Maybe they should, but they CAN'T.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Practically speaking, yes.

How in the world is our government going to round up and process and deport MILLIONS of people? Maybe they should, but they CAN'T.

Why "can't" they? It would be pretty easy to round up most.... we all know where to find them? The ironic thing is, the AFL-CIO and big business are on the same page when it come to illegal immigration.... what do they say about "politics and strange bedfellows"?.....

If this country can't enforce it's borders and it's laws, then we need to find leaders who can..... Hillary and the AFL-CIO aren't the leaders we need.....

 

[XJohXJ]

Because they aren't capable of it. How do YOU propose they do this?

Either way, I'm done with the argument.

I support my union and pilot group. You do not support your union or pilot group. Bye bye.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because they aren't capable of it. How do YOU propose they do this?

Either way, I'm done with the argument.

I support my union and pilot group. You do not support your union or pilot group. Bye bye.

How about our union stop advocating that we make them legal...

How about we send ICE to all locations that employ illegal aliens.... Restaurants, farm fields, construction sites, etc.....

Total left wing cop out..... "we can't" therefor we should just let them all come here..... then we will make them become union members and vote Democratic....

I'm done too, but don't be surprised when the majority of your fellow "union brothers" disagree and don't support the PAC.... We don't agree.....

 

[PCL_128]

Practically speaking, yes.

How in the world is our government going to round up and process and deport MILLIONS of people? Maybe they should, but they CAN'T.

XJohXJ, you're making the mistake of trying to use logic and common sense with Joey. You have to remember that Joey is a crazy idealist who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "pragmatic." Whether something is workable or realistic doesn't matter to him. All he can do is rant about how things "should" be.

 

[JoeMerchant]

XJohXJ, you're making the mistake of trying to use logic and common sense with Joey. You have to remember that Joey is a crazy idealist who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "pragmatic." Whether something is workable or realistic doesn't matter to him. All he can do is rant about how things "should" be.

So we shouldn't argue from a point of "how things should be"? What would you prefer PCL? How things "shouldn't be"?

If I made fun of ALPA for pontificating about "how things should be", you would be on me like white on rice.... however if I argue about "how things should be", you make fun of it.... tell me PCL, as a former "conservative", how do feel about the illegal invasion and the stance of the AFL-CIO.....

 

[PCL_128]

So we shouldn't argue from a point of "how things should be"? What would you prefer PCL? How things "shouldn't be"?

I prefer to be a realist and look at how things actually can be done. It's logistically impossible to deport all of the illegals in this country. Yes, that's what "should be" done, but it simply can't be done.

how do feel about the illegal invasion and the stance of the AFL-CIO.....

We need to put a stop to the illegal invasion by stationing troops at the border and using any level of force necessary to keep the illegals out. The AFL-CIO's stance is counter-productive in my opinion because it only encourages more illegals to enter our country since we haven't first secured the border. If we give blanket amnesty to illegals before securing our borders, then we'll just have 8 million more of them coming across and the whole process starts over. If we actually secured the borders and were able to keep anymore illegals out, then I might support an amnesty bill to grandfather in the current illegals that already reside in America, simply because deporting them is a logistical impossibility. However, amnesty without secure borders is asinine.

 

[XJohXJ]

I prefer to be a realist and look at how things actually can be done. It's logistically impossible to deport all of the illegals in this country. Yes, that's what "should be" done, but it simply can't be done.

We need to put a stop to the illegal invasion by stationing troops at the border and using any level of force necessary to keep the illegals out. The AFL-CIO's stance is counter-productive in my opinion because it only encourages more illegals to enter our country since we haven't first secured the border. If we give blanket amnesty to illegals before securing our borders, then we'll just have 8 million more of them coming across and the whole process starts over. If we actually secured the borders and were able to keep anymore illegals out, then I might support an amnesty bill to grandfather in the current illegals that already reside in America, simply because deporting them is a logistical impossibility. However, amnesty without secure borders is asinine.

Boy, thanks for putting it better than I was able to.

Unfortunately, our government wants to spend millions on technology and hates to think of actually hiring people to put feet on the ground (just another aspect of being anti-labor. Troops are labor, too).

A secure border requires people there to do the job, with tech as a backup, not primary.

The AFL-CIO are probably getting a bit ahead of things, but they can only address the labor issue. The AFL-CIO can not address border security.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I prefer to be a realist and look at how things actually can be done. It's logistically impossible to deport all of the illegals in this country. Yes, that's what "should be" done, but it simply can't be done.

Using your logic, then we shouldn't enforce any of our laws.... Is it possible to to stop all speeders? Is it possible to stop all DUI's? Is it possible to stop all robberies? Is it possible to stop all murders? NO it isn't! Does that mean we stop trying? NO it doesn't.... I can help ICE find many illegal aliens if they need help, and I sure as he!! don't need my union promoting that they be left alone....

We need to put a stop to the illegal invasion by stationing troops at the border and using any level of force necessary to keep the illegals out. The AFL-CIO's stance is counter-productive in my opinion because it only encourages more illegals to enter our country since we haven't first secured the border. If we give blanket amnesty to illegals before securing our borders, then we'll just have 8 million more of them coming across and the whole process starts over. If we actually secured the borders and were able to keep anymore illegals out, then I might support an amnesty bill to grandfather in the current illegals that already reside in America, simply because deporting them is a logistical impossibility. However, amnesty without secure borders is asinine.

I agree.... and our union's stance is counter productive to that goal..... it is trying to protect itself at the cost of our country and our citizens....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Boy, thanks for putting it better than I was able to.

Unfortunately, our government wants to spend millions on technology and hates to think of actually hiring people to put feet on the ground (just another aspect of being anti-labor. Troops are labor, too).

A secure border requires people there to do the job, with tech as a backup, not primary.

The AFL-CIO are probably getting a bit ahead of things, but they can only address the labor issue. The AFL-CIO can not address border security.

I thought you were done..... I agree that troops should be on the border, but you liberals (including the unions) don't want that....

Let's put troops on the border and enforce our immigration laws.... including deporting those who are here illegally.....

 

[PCL_128]

Using your logic, then we shouldn't enforce any of our laws.... Is it possible to to stop all speeders? Is it possible to stop all DUI's? Is it possible to stop all robberies? Is it possible to stop all murders? NO it isn't! Does that mean we stop trying? NO it doesn't.... I can help ICE find many illegal aliens if they need help, and I sure as he!! don't need my union promoting that they be left alone....

Not analogous. Fining speeders, throwing robbers in jail, executing murderers, and charging DUI offenders provides a large deterrent affect. Wasting copious amounts of resources on trying to deport illegals provides no deterrent affect. They'll just try again after you deport them and you'll end up sending them back time after time.

I agree.... and our union's stance is counter productive to that goal..... it is trying to protect itself at the cost of our country and our citizens....

The AFL-CIO isn't responsible for border security. Other special-interest groups deal with that issue. The AFL-CIO deals with labor issues. I don't expect them to be commenting on whether we need troops on the border or not. That being said, I do agree that their stance on this issue in premature, as amnesty before secure borders will not provide any protection for labor. Your assertion that this is fueled by self-interest is absurd. The AFL-CIO stands to gain nothing from jobs being lost to illegals because they will only drive down incomes of blue-collar workers. That will cause the AFL-CIO's revenue to go down. This isn't about self-interest for the AFL. This is just bad policy. But I'm not a fan of Sweeney, anyway.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not analogous. Fining speeders, throwing robbers in jail, executing murderers, and charging DUI offenders provides a large deterrent affect. Wasting copious amounts of resources on trying to deport illegals provides no deterrent affect. They'll just try again after you deport them and you'll end up sending them back time after time.

Your argument was that

"It's logistically impossible to deport all of the illegals"

That is true, but is logically impossible to arrest or stop any illegal activity... that doesn't stop us from pursuing any other illegal activity... for some reason, illegal invadors get a free pass....

The AFL-CIO isn't responsible for border security. Other special-interest groups deal with that issue. The AFL-CIO deals with labor issues. I don't expect them to be commenting on whether we need troops on the border or not. That being said, I do agree that their stance on this issue in premature, as amnesty before secure borders will not provide any protection for labor. Your assertion that this is fueled by self-interest is absurd. The AFL-CIO stands to gain nothing from jobs being lost to illegals because they will only drive down incomes of blue-collar workers. That will cause the AFL-CIO's revenue to go down. This isn't about self-interest for the AFL. This is just bad policy. But I'm not a fan of Sweeney, anyway.

Cop out argument... The AFL-CIO stands to benefit by organizing these illegal aliens.... Everyone realizes that....

The harm it does is that alienates the conservative members of ALPA and other unions.... In terms of ALPA, conservatives are the majority.... Supporting illiegal aliens and Hillary Clinton won't exactly get the PAC contributions flowing.... but keep on defending it and complaining about why ALPA pilots don't contribute.... you just don't see the disconnect.... much like the union leadership....