Question for Lear 35/Citation II drivers

[some_dude]

Judging only from the asking prices on Controller.com, you are not going to get a C550 from the mid-late 90s for $2 million. A $2 million C550 is going to be an 80s airframe, just like the 35.

I'm not arguing that the 35 is better, or disagreeing that newer is better, just pointing out that aging aircraft are a fact of life in that price range.

While the 35 is a good plane, and will do the same mission, for the age of the airfame you would likley wind up with, I don't think you'd operate it for less, even given the speed advantage, over a C550 that is less than half the age.

Costs associated with 'aging aircraft' are well documented. And if an entity could buy for the same money an airframe that is much younger, with a 'known cost to operate' history, it's good for everyone...especially you ;-)

Good luck

 

[Rick1128]

Lr35

In that size and price range, it is pretty tough to beat a Lear 35. Over built airframe, well powered. Not quite as much omph as a 25 but still a goer. Personally, I wouldn't get too worried over the aging aircraft issue with a Lear. I have flown a couple that were over 20,000 hours and they flew quite nicely. Biggest issue with Lears like many jets is corrosen. The dryer the climate it was in before the better.

T/R in a Lear are a non-issue. You are much better off without T/R, if your only choice are the Aeronca's. A waste of useful load as far as I am concerned. The Raisbeck aft locker is useful for about 2 golfbags and not much else. The size is odd enough that there are not too many bags that will fit in it. Plus it increases the side area enough to increase your workload in a good crosswind.

 

[h25b]

The Raisbeck aft locker is useful for about 2 golfbags and not much else. The size is odd enough that there are not too many bags that will fit in it. Plus it increases the side area enough to increase your workload in a good crosswind.

We have the locker on our 31A and for the life of me I can't figure out exactly what golf bag WOULD fit in to this thing. Certainly none of the type used by your average corporate jet passenger. I personally use an Izzo walking bag and it BARELY fits in there.

Our locker is really only used for engine covers and a tool box.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

Another thing to consider is the fact that 90% of the Lears (or TFE-731 aircraft) that are for sale are on MSP. Some Citations are on a power by the hour program, but most are not.
Without getting into an argument over the merits of MSP - buying a used aircraft with paid up MSP gives you some security. It depends on the size or assets of the company you work for. Can they take a $400K hit on unscheduled maintenance?
When I flew Citation's a tower shaft broke in flight. The passengers completed the trip by airline. I spent 11 days in a strange place renting an engine, getting ripped off on the installation, and getting the aircraft home. Then we had to pay to overhaul our low time engine, pay to re-install it, and pay the bill on the rental engine.
If this happened today with our 731 powered aircraft on MSP gold it would cost us nothing. You do pay monthly, but when you sell or trade it doesn't matter about engine times or when OH or MPI's are due because it's paid for.

HEADWIND

We have MSP Gold, just did the MPI on the right engine (covered including removal and replacement) they replaced the EECs with DEECs ($97K each, covered) and a couple flights after all this we had a mid-span fan blade break loose on the other engine, damaging the intake housing but everything went through the bi-pass thank goodness. This repair too was covered by MSP and they had us up and running in 5 days. MSP pays for itself in the long run. At least in our case it did.

 

[h25b]

We have MSP Gold, just did the MPI on the right engine (covered including removal and replacement) they replaced the EECs with DEECs ($97K each, covered) and a couple flights after all this we had a mid-span fan blade break loose on the other engine, damaging the intake housing but everything went through the bi-pass thank goodness. This repair too was covered by MSP and they had us up and running in 5 days. MSP pays for itself in the long run. At least in our case it did.

Ditto on that one. MSP Gold is cheap insurance, especially for smaller operators.

Just got a letter from Honeywell stating that our rate was escalating by $7/hr./engine...

 

[Palerider957]

How do the MSP programs work? I know they are paid hourly, but does the hourly rate increase as the engines get more time or age? What's an approximate costs for the Lear 35A per hour.

We haven't put the Isp on any engine program since there are so many old pratt's lying around.

 

[ultrarunner]

How do the MSP programs work? I know they are paid hourly, but does the hourly rate increase as the engines get more time or age? What's an approximate costs for the Lear 35A per hour.

The hourly rates are typically good for the contract, although there may be very slight annual increases in the rate.

731-2 rates run about $155/hour/engine.

 

[some_dude]

Here is the official Honeywell page about MSP:

http://www.c-hamps.com/msp_TFE.asp

You can find the rate tables here:

http://www.c-hamps.com/programs.asp#rates

How do the MSP programs work? I know they are paid hourly, but does the hourly rate increase as the engines get more time or age? What's an approximate costs for the Lear 35A per hour.

 

[Lead Sled]

In that size and price range, it is pretty tough to beat a Lear 35. Over built airframe, well powered. Not quite as much omph as a 25 but still a goer. Personally, I wouldn't get too worried over the aging aircraft issue with a Lear. I have flown a couple that were over 20,000 hours and they flew quite nicely. Biggest issue with Lears like many jets is corrosion. The dryer the climate it was in before the better.

T/R in a Lear are a non-issue. You are much better off without T/R, if your only choice are the Aeronca's. A waste of useful load as far as I am concerned. The Raisbeck aft locker is useful for about 2 golf bags and not much else. The size is odd enough that there are not too many bags that will fit in it. Plus it increases the side area enough to increase your workload in a good crosswind.

I don't have as much time in 35s as some of the guys on this thread, but I had right around 3000 hours in them when we "moved on". When it comes to Lears (and most other airplanes) newer is usually always better than older. I'd try to find a late model with the 530 autopilot. I wouldn't worry much about corrosion as long as you go with something recently out of a 12 year which was performed by a reputable shop. The main thing is to get a thorough prebuy by someone who really knows Lears. Probably the best "guru" around for Lears is Danny Brown at West Star Aviation in GJT. Danny worked for Duncan for years and is the Lear "go to" guy.

When your talking Lears, you have to remember that there are so many service bulletins and system upgrades that there are probably no two airplanes alike. Again, guys like Danny Brown will keep you out of trouble.

I hear a lot of bad mouthing the Aeronca reversers and I admit that they can be a pain in the keester. However, if they are properly maintained they are very reliable. The biggest problem most mechanics have with them is that they over lubricate them. (Based on the theory that if that much is good, then this much more has got to be better.) We fought t/r problems until we found an experienced Aeronca guy. He showed our mechanic how to adjust and lubricate them and we had zero problems with them after that. Along those same lines, many Lears have drag chutes. Those are a waste of space if you ask me.

Find one that has the cockpit "hair dryers" already installed. They work well to keep the windshield from fogging up. The STC to get them installed isn't cheap, but it will be worth it if you're going to spend much time in the south.

When it comes to baggage, it's certainly one of the Lear's weak points. We put a lot of effort into maximizing what we could carry. The passengers would often bring too much stuff or pieces that were too large. We ended up buying some luggage that we had experimented with and could get to fit easily and completely in the space behind the seat. We then gave it to the owners and told them that whatever they brought on the trip had to fit in those bags. It worked well for us and our baggage issues went away.

A Lear 35 vs a Citation II for the legs your talking about? Definitely a Lear. Besides, I would imagine that you'll occasionally go further. A Citation is a great airplane, but the extra 50 or 60 knots will make a big difference on those longer legs - especially when you're bucking a headwind.

My opinion would change it your budget would allow you to go with a Citation Ultra. That is one nice airplane that is almost as fast as a Lear. When it comes to the Lear 31, I was never too impressed by it. Basically, if you want a Lear 35 to perform like a Lear 31 just fly it at Lear 31 weights.I never could see paying the premium that Lear 31s command.

The 35 is a more demanding airplane to fly than the Citation, but you'll get the hang of it if you decide to go that route.

Have fun.

'Sled

 

[Headwind]

Our MSP rates go up appr. 3% per year. Now they are at $180.29 for gold. This is for -3 engines and -2 on the Lear should be less. At our MPI last year they installed DEEC's at no charge.
When you buy a 731 powered aircraft that has been on MSP you pay a transfer fee and keep it going. You have the option to go gold for $10. or $15. per hour extra. Gold covers the rental engine, shipping, AOG service, etc.

HEADWIND

 

[Palerider957]

Man, you guys kick a$$. Thanks for all the helpful replies.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

How do the MSP programs work? I know they are paid hourly, but does the hourly rate increase as the engines get more time or age? What's an approximate costs for the Lear 35A per hour.

The hourly rates are typically good for the contract, although there may be very slight annual increases in the rate.

731-2 rates run about $155/hour/engine.

This is approximately what we pay on our Lear 35a. The annual increase do come around the beginning of the year and there is normally a clause in the contract that increases as the engines cross 4,200 hours total time.

I've priced out MSP on other engines as well and the -3C engines are actually cheaper per hour because their MPI period is 2100 hours vs the -2 engines which are every 1400 hours.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

When your talking Lears, you have to remember that there are so many service bulletins and system upgrades that there are probably no two airplanes alike. Again, guys like Danny Brown will keep you out of trouble.

LOL! Someone once gave me a description of a Learjet as being the most expensive homebuilt on the market for this very reason. It's been said that when Bill Lear had an idea in his head for something, he'd just go find an airplane on the assembly line to try it out.

 

[Headwind]

We have the -3C engines and they require 2 MPI's between CZI's. It's the -3D thats less (MSP cost per hour) because it only requires 1 MPI at mid-lift.
I have been told that if you have -3C engines at CZI the MSP will convert then to -3D. You have the option to pay the cost difference and get lower hourly rate or let MSP pay the conversion cost and keep your hourly rate as is. More than one operator has told me this and I hope it's true. Anyone know?

 

[MNR]

I know of at least one instance where a drag chute saved a crews life. When they had to do a high speed abort going out of MDW. I don't think they are a waste. There is nothing else sitting up there in the hell hole anyways. Sure you have to get it repacked every so often but its nice to know its there. That being said we didn't have one on the last 35 I flew, its not a must have item but its nice its there.

If you go with a 35 definately look for one with a 530 autopilot. Big difference from the FC200. Plus I think it made it easier to certify for RVSM.

The Raisback locker is not very useful but in a 35 any extra luggage space is handy. Its a very odd shape. You can fit small soft duffel bags, and long slender items like drivers, shotguns and fishing poles back there real well. We could get 4 golf bag in our 35 by laying the golf bags sideways behind the divan and putting the drivers in the locker. So on occation it would work well. You could fit smaller crew rollers back there as well.

The 35 is very limited on cargo space. I can't tell you how many times we had to strap things into the seats. Not much space up front either. They say you can tell who is the Captain and who is the FO in a Lear by with way their heads tilt when they walk on the ramp.

There are some really nice later model 35s out there. If you can find something in the sn500s or 600s you will be better off because most of the ADs from the earlier SNs will be standard on the later ones. But definately take a look at each individual 35 they are all different. It was almost funny going through Airnet's inital Lear ground school way back when. They operate 30+ of them. It would be a constant this tail number has this and this tail number has that...groud school at FSI was the same way. The last one I flew for a private owner had Dual FMS, upgraded avionics, raisback locker, FC530 ap, GPWS etc. lots of bells and whistles...big upgrade from the freighters I was flying.

The system that will get you in trouble the quickest in the Lear is the fuel. They had a military one nose in because one of the stand-by pumps in one of the wings shorted itself on. There was no checklist for the problem at the time. They now have lights avaiable for the stand-by pumps. Good add-on imho if you don't get one with them installed.

Never flew a Citation. I love Learjets however. I have been told they are difficult to fly. I don't have anything to compare it to so I don't know. What I do know it that I enjoy flying them. The 25 is an even bigger kick. Good luck making a decision. Hope the above helped.