Question for Lear 35/Citation II drivers

[some_dude]

The newest 35s are 15 years old. So, decent? I'd say 20-25 years old, with less than 10,000 hours, with RVSM, TAWS, recent 12-year inspection, nice paint and interior, etc. Late 35s are in the high 2 million range, I believe, or maybe a little less.

I agree that the V is a great airplane, and would do the mission just fine. But, he was asking about Citation IIs and Lear 35s, both of which are sub- $2 million airplanes.

Under 2? Wow.

What's decent mean????

Ultra's are gonna be more than that....

It's all in what you want. But what I'd call a decent V is less than 8 years old or so and less than 5,000 hours. And it's gonna take 3 to 4 to get in that game.

If I were to guess, to get a 35 under 2 mil, you're looking at 25 year old airframes with just a ton of airframe hours.

With what's available and the current market, a buyer is always going to be better off purchasing the new airframe, with lower time on it. It will make a WORLD of difference when it comes time to get rid of it.

 

[ultrarunner]

The newest 35s are 15 years old. So, decent? I'd say 20-25 years old, with less than 10,000 hours, with RVSM, TAWS, recent 12-year inspection, nice paint and interior, etc. Late 35s are in the high 2 million range, I believe, or maybe a little less.

I agree that the V is a great airplane, and would do the mission just fine. But, he was asking about Citation IIs and Lear 35s, both of which are sub- $2 million airplanes.

Ahh, got it. Yeah, if their price point is 2 million bucks, they would be wasting their time looking at V's or V ultra's.

 

[Headwind]

Another thing to consider is the fact that 90% of the Lears (or TFE-731 aircraft) that are for sale are on MSP. Some Citations are on a power by the hour program, but most are not.
Without getting into an argument over the merits of MSP - buying a used aircraft with paid up MSP gives you some security. It depends on the size or assets of the company you work for. Can they take a $400K hit on unscheduled maintenance?
When I flew Citation's a tower shaft broke in flight. The passengers completed the trip by airline. I spent 11 days in a strange place renting an engine, getting ripped off on the installation, and getting the aircraft home. Then we had to pay to overhaul our low time engine, pay to re-install it, and pay the bill on the rental engine.
If this happened today with our 731 powered aircraft on MSP gold it would cost us nothing. You do pay monthly, but when you sell or trade it doesn't matter about engine times or when OH or MPI's are due because it's paid for.

HEADWIND

 

[Palerider957]

Thanks for everyones input. We will have fully depreciated the Isp next year and are looking to upgrade. I think they are looking in the 2.2M to 2.5M range.

Personally, I want to fly the Lear, but I'm not writing the checks.

 

[ultrarunner]

It sounds as if your company has some time to figure this all out. It would sound as if the mission has already been defined, and that's the first step.

The are also well educated in what it costs to operate a 500 series Cessan. The could expect essentially the same should they add a 550.

While the 35 is a good plane, and will do the same mission, for the age of the airfame you would likley wind up with, I don't think you'd operate it for less, even given the speed advantage, over a C550 that is less than half the age.

Costs associated with 'aging aircraft' are well documented. And if an entity could buy for the same money an airframe that is much younger, with a 'known cost to operate' history, it's good for everyone...especially you ;-)

Good luck

 

[some_dude]

Judging only from the asking prices on Controller.com, you are not going to get a C550 from the mid-late 90s for $2 million. A $2 million C550 is going to be an 80s airframe, just like the 35.

I'm not arguing that the 35 is better, or disagreeing that newer is better, just pointing out that aging aircraft are a fact of life in that price range.

While the 35 is a good plane, and will do the same mission, for the age of the airfame you would likley wind up with, I don't think you'd operate it for less, even given the speed advantage, over a C550 that is less than half the age.

Costs associated with 'aging aircraft' are well documented. And if an entity could buy for the same money an airframe that is much younger, with a 'known cost to operate' history, it's good for everyone...especially you ;-)

Good luck

 

[Rick1128]

Lr35

In that size and price range, it is pretty tough to beat a Lear 35. Over built airframe, well powered. Not quite as much omph as a 25 but still a goer. Personally, I wouldn't get too worried over the aging aircraft issue with a Lear. I have flown a couple that were over 20,000 hours and they flew quite nicely. Biggest issue with Lears like many jets is corrosen. The dryer the climate it was in before the better.

T/R in a Lear are a non-issue. You are much better off without T/R, if your only choice are the Aeronca's. A waste of useful load as far as I am concerned. The Raisbeck aft locker is useful for about 2 golfbags and not much else. The size is odd enough that there are not too many bags that will fit in it. Plus it increases the side area enough to increase your workload in a good crosswind.

 

[h25b]

The Raisbeck aft locker is useful for about 2 golfbags and not much else. The size is odd enough that there are not too many bags that will fit in it. Plus it increases the side area enough to increase your workload in a good crosswind.

We have the locker on our 31A and for the life of me I can't figure out exactly what golf bag WOULD fit in to this thing. Certainly none of the type used by your average corporate jet passenger. I personally use an Izzo walking bag and it BARELY fits in there.

Our locker is really only used for engine covers and a tool box.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

Another thing to consider is the fact that 90% of the Lears (or TFE-731 aircraft) that are for sale are on MSP. Some Citations are on a power by the hour program, but most are not.
Without getting into an argument over the merits of MSP - buying a used aircraft with paid up MSP gives you some security. It depends on the size or assets of the company you work for. Can they take a $400K hit on unscheduled maintenance?
When I flew Citation's a tower shaft broke in flight. The passengers completed the trip by airline. I spent 11 days in a strange place renting an engine, getting ripped off on the installation, and getting the aircraft home. Then we had to pay to overhaul our low time engine, pay to re-install it, and pay the bill on the rental engine.
If this happened today with our 731 powered aircraft on MSP gold it would cost us nothing. You do pay monthly, but when you sell or trade it doesn't matter about engine times or when OH or MPI's are due because it's paid for.

HEADWIND

We have MSP Gold, just did the MPI on the right engine (covered including removal and replacement) they replaced the EECs with DEECs ($97K each, covered) and a couple flights after all this we had a mid-span fan blade break loose on the other engine, damaging the intake housing but everything went through the bi-pass thank goodness. This repair too was covered by MSP and they had us up and running in 5 days. MSP pays for itself in the long run. At least in our case it did.

 

[h25b]

We have MSP Gold, just did the MPI on the right engine (covered including removal and replacement) they replaced the EECs with DEECs ($97K each, covered) and a couple flights after all this we had a mid-span fan blade break loose on the other engine, damaging the intake housing but everything went through the bi-pass thank goodness. This repair too was covered by MSP and they had us up and running in 5 days. MSP pays for itself in the long run. At least in our case it did.

Ditto on that one. MSP Gold is cheap insurance, especially for smaller operators.

Just got a letter from Honeywell stating that our rate was escalating by $7/hr./engine...