Question for Delta Pilots

[tomgoodman]

Question for Delta pilots.

Why do you always ________________?

Well, it's because....um......I forgot why. Retired almost 10 years ago.

 

[redflyer65]

Back a few years ago you guys were on fire, bragging about everything while the legacies were struggling. Well, it's turning around, and after your fiasco with AT, everyone can now see that your once perch atop the industry is starting to crumble. Your junior guys can see that stagnation and the AT merger will keep them at the bottom of the list for decades, doing 5 leggers each flying day, which nobody wants to do as they grow older.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Where do you get this crap General? Do you lay awake at night thinking about new one-liners against Southwest? It really appears so.

We've had 40+ years of consecutive profits, year after year after year. We've never been in bankruptcy and OWN 80% of our aircraft.....outright.

You have a problem with that? I don't. Full Steam Ahead!

 

[General Lee]

Where do you get this crap General? Do you lay awake at night thinking about new one-liners against Southwest? It really appears so.

We've had 40+ years of consecutive profits, year after year after year. We've never been in bankruptcy and OWN 80% of our aircraft.....outright.

You have a problem with that? I don't. Full Steam Ahead!

Well, you surely aren't perfect (ETOPS stopped, delay 30 738s, RES system can't handle INTL res, etc). But, what I was really emplying is that the MAIN thing you used to brag about was your "family" attitude there, which seems to have been DASHED by your troubles with the AT pilots. Add the stagnation that will follow age 65 and few upcoming retirements (compared to the legacies), and younger AT guys going in front of many of you, disgruntled as they are, and that spells INTERESTING TIMES. Do I lie awake at night thinking about that? Heck no. It seems too obvious for that. Have a great one RED.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[JOPILOT]

No and uh No, JP

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well, you surely aren't perfect (ETOPS stopped, delay 30 738s, RES system can't handle INTL res, etc). But, what I was really emplying is that the MAIN thing you used to brag about was your "family" attitude there, which seems to have been DASHED by your troubles with the AT pilots. Add the stagnation that will follow age 65 and few upcoming retirements (compared to the legacies), and younger AT guys going in front of many of you, disgruntled as they are, and that spells INTERESTING TIMES. Do I lie awake at night thinking about that? Heck no. It seems too obvious for that. Have a great one RED.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Aren't you getting tired of spouting debunked BS, General? You used to take aboslute glee in shouting, post after post, about SWA "losing money" on devaluation of its fuel hedges, despite having it patiently explained to you over and over like a kid. Remember? Then it happened to Delta, and suddenly you're an expert on GAAP and paper loses. "Delta didn't lose money! It's a paper trick!"

Now you keep harping on deferring aircraft delivery, as if it's the kiss of death. It's not necessarily a bad thing. GK deferred them to improve ROIC to his comfort threshhold (15%) to commence expansion again. And then those deliveries will come as 737-Maxes, instead of 737-NGs. Another good aspect. Only YOU can spin that into the demise of Southwest. I suppose when Delta defers a delivery for any reason, suddenly you'll be the reigning FI expert on airlline strategic planning, to explain to us all what it REALLLY means.

And enough with the Airtran stuff--you don't even know what you're talking about. Above you mentioned disgruntled AT pilots AND disgruntled junior Southwest pilots because all the Airtran guys are in front of them. Good God, General, make up your friggin' mind! Did we screw them, or did they screw us?! You can't argue it both ways, yet you did exactly that above--in the same sentence, no less--trying to spew out of your azz in both directions. You should at least confine your BS to a consistent side of your argument.

Is ETOPS delayed? Yep; GK's change in priorities. Are we still waiting on a better res system for international? Yep; we haven't needed one before now, and now we're working on it. But somehow, despite these "challenges," I think Southwest will manage to survive (and continue to make money as well) despite the sage predictions you share with us all in every single post you make, which seems to happen in every single thread, related or not, that you puke your opinions into.

Give it a rest, already. You might want to consider upping the dosage on your meds while you're at it. They don't seem to be working.

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Aren't you getting tired of spouting debunked BS, General? You used to take aboslute glee in shouting, post after post, about SWA "losing money" on devaluation of its fuel hedges, despite having it patiently explained to you over and over like a kid. Remember? Then it happened to Delta, and suddenly you're an expert on GAAP and paper loses. "Delta didn't lose money! It's a paper trick!"

Now you keep harping on deferring aircraft delivery, as if it's the kiss of death. It's not necessarily a bad thing. GK deferred them to improve ROIC to his comfort threshhold (15%) to commence expansion again. And then those deliveries will come as 737-Maxes, instead of 737-NGs. Another good aspect. Only YOU can spin that into the demise of Southwest. I suppose when Delta defers a delivery for any reason, suddenly you'll be the reigning FI expert on airlline strategic planning, to explain to us all what it REALLLY means.

And enough with the Airtran stuff--you don't even know what you're talking about. Above you mentioned disgruntled AT pilots AND disgruntled junior Southwest pilots because all the Airtran guys are in front of them. Good God, General, make up your friggin' mind! Did we screw them, or did they screw us?! You can't argue it both ways, yet you did exactly that above--in the same sentence, no less--trying to spew out of your azz in both directions. You should at least confine your BS to a consistent side of your argument.

Is ETOPS delayed? Yep; GK's change in priorities. Are we still waiting on a better res system for international? Yep; we haven't needed one before now, and now we're working on it. But somehow, despite these "challenges," I think Southwest will manage to survive (and continue to make money as well) despite the sage predictions you share with us all in every single post you make, which seems to happen in every single thread, related or not, that you puke your opinions into.

Give it a rest, already. You might want to consider upping the dosage on your meds while you're at it. They don't seem to be working.

Bubba

In reality you have two sets of disgruntled pilots, the AT guys and the junior SWA pilots. Both are upset, and that is the truth. As far as your RES system goes, YOU WOULD THINK someone would have thought about that BEFORE buying another airline. Oh well......

And I have been resting a lot, including on my two leg trips to and from Europe. So niiiiiiiice. Ta ta.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Whataburger]

And I have been resting a lot, including on my two leg trips to and from Europe. So niiiiiiiice. Ta ta.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Enjoy your Shiftwork Sleep Disorder with a heaping side dish of Rapid Timezone Change Syndrome.

Lets discuss trips a gain since you are so proud of yours.

My next two trips:

1. 3day, 8 legs, all PM starts and finishes, pays 24.1 credits.
2. 4day, 11 legs, all PM starts and finishes, pays 33.2 credits.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

If you are good at math, thats 14 days work, 114 credits. My original schedule paid 95 credits with 12 days of work.

All are less than 10 hr days. With a .74 Duty rig and 6.5 tfp minimum, our company knows to work us when we are on the road or they will pay us nicely anyway.

How's your October schedule? What does Mother Delta have for rigs, general cheese?

 

[General Lee]

Enjoy your Shiftwork Sleep Disorder with a heaping side dish of Rapid Timezone Change Syndrome.

Lets discuss trips a gain since you are so proud of yours.

My next two trips:

1. 3day, 8 legs, all PM starts and finishes, pays 24.1 credits.
2. 4day, 11 legs, all PM starts and finishes, pays 33.2 credits.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

If you are good at math, thats 14 days work, 114 credits. My original schedule paid 95 credits with 12 days of work.

All are less than 10 hr days. With a .74 Duty rig and 6.5 tfp minimum, our company knows to work us when we are on the road or they will pay us nicely anyway.

How's your October schedule? What does Mother Delta have for rigs, general cheese?

Are you comparing YOUR trips, or the majority of trips out there? The guys I talk to at your airline complain of 15 or more legs on a 4 day trip, which sounds a lot like the Regionals. YOUR trips may be better, you may be more senior as an FO, I don't know. My trips consist of many options on the plane I fly. If you are on a 3 day trip with at least 1 leg per day, the min is 15:45. That doesn't mean EVERY 3 day trip is that way, but that is the MIN. If there is a leg each day of a 4 day, then 21:00, but again not every trip is at MIN. I do 3 day Europe trips that are worth close to 20 hours, and they have 2 legs. That's called efficient. I do 6 day trips that can be worth close to 40 hours (beats your 33 hour 4 day---it's better than 30 in 7 because it is an INTL trip, something only your AT brothers can do right now). We have 12 day trips worth 82 hours, and at MOST you are flying 1 leg a day, to nice resorts in the Marianas, or back and forth from Japan to Honolulu. (which I did a few months ago---easy 9 or 10 hour legs back and forth to HNL from Fukoka, Nagoya, Narita, or Osaka) It's called variety. You can do 1 day turns, or you can fly up to 12 in a row on certain fleets (757/767, A330, 744), and then have 35 days off in a row (with another 12 day at the end of the following month). If you don't like those, you also have a choice of different fleets to fit your needs, with plenty of bases to choose from too.

Not everyone can hold trips like that above, but with huge retirement numbers coming up (something you guys lack, fairly small numbers compared to the legacies, and when one guy leaves from the left seat at your airline, one FO moves up, and one needs to be hired. Not at a legacy. One guy retires, 10 move up, etc). I forcast a bunch of your junior FOs looking around when the legacies start hiring and get their contracts in order.

As far as my OCT schedule goes, the flying has died down a bit compared to the busy Summer, so the lines are worth a little less. I think our average line value on my fleet is 79 hours (that can be bumped up to 87 via white slips, or picking up opentime). There are other ways to add time, like swapping trips, and that happens everyday. You can choose to fly a little, or fly a lot. It depends on when you want to work, and seniority, just like your airline. I personally had a carry over trip from the last month, and 3 Europe 3 days. I swapped one 3 day Europe for a higher time domestic to get some landings and to see the West Coast. So, I have about 86 hours, and I get to fly to places I want to see, with a few landings too, and not too much stress. No 25 min turns. The INTL trips pay more per hour (INTL override), and the per diem is higher too. Next month I have vacation around Thanksgiving, so I will actually be allowed to pick up more time if I want, which means I could have 100 hours of pay, but still have 18 or more days off. (I could fly 4 3 day Europes, and on top of that get paid for a week of vacation)



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Are you comparing YOUR trips, or the majority of trips out there? The guys I talk to at your airline complain of 15 or more legs on a 4 day trip, which sounds a lot like the Regionals. YOUR trips may be better, you may be more senior as an FO, I don't know. My trips consist of many options on the plane I fly. If you are on a 3 day trip with at least 1 leg per day, the min is 15:45. That doesn't mean EVERY 3 day trip is that way, but that is the MIN. If there is a leg each day of a 4 day, then 21:00, but again not every trip is at MIN. I do 3 day Europe trips that are worth close to 20 hours, and they have 2 legs. That's called efficient. I do 6 day trips that can be worth close to 40 hours (beats your 33 hour 4 day---it's better than 30 in 7 because it is an INTL trip, something only your AT brothers can do right now). We have 12 day trips worth 82 hours, and at MOST you are flying 1 leg a day, to nice resorts in the Marianas, or back and forth from Japan to Honolulu. (which I did a few months ago---easy 9 or 10 hour legs back and forth to HNL from Fukoka, Nagoya, Narita, or Osaka) It's called variety. You can do 1 day turns, or you can fly up to 12 in a row on certain fleets (757/767, A330, 744), and then have 35 days off in a row (with another 12 day at the end of the following month). If you don't like those, you also have a choice of different fleets to fit your needs, with plenty of bases to choose from too.

Not everyone can hold trips like that above, but with huge retirement numbers coming up (something you guys lack, fairly small numbers compared to the legacies, and when one guy leaves from the left seat at your airline, one FO moves up, and one needs to be hired. Not at a legacy. One guy retires, 10 move up, etc). I forcast a bunch of your junior FOs looking around when the legacies start hiring and get their contracts in order.

As far as my OCT schedule goes, the flying has died down a bit compared to the busy Summer, so the lines are worth a little less. I think our average line value on my fleet is 79 hours (that can be bumped up to 87 via white slips, or picking up opentime). There are other ways to add time, like swapping trips, and that happens everyday. You can choose to fly a little, or fly a lot. It depends on when you want to work, and seniority, just like your airline. I personally had a carry over trip from the last month, and 3 Europe 3 days. I swapped one 3 day Europe for a higher time domestic to get some landings and to see the West Coast. So, I have about 86 hours, and I get to fly to places I want to see, with a few landings too, and not too much stress. No 25 min turns. The INTL trips pay more per hour (INTL override), and the per diem is higher too. Next month I have vacation around Thanksgiving, so I will actually be allowed to pick up more time if I want, which means I could have 100 hours of pay, but still have 18 or more days off. (I could fly 4 3 day Europes, and on top of that get paid for a week of vacation)



Bye Bye---General Lee

Well, obviously he's comparing his trips, since that's what he's got, as you are comparing your trips. But here's a comparison for you: I'm about as junior a captain as can be, without being on reserve. And -I- get to fly schedules like he describes above. Two legs a day is my personal preference; occasionally one, sometimes three, but two to two-and-a-half legs per day is the average for me. Are there trips with 4 or 5 legs? Sure. But so are there at Delta. Newsflash, General: everyone at Southwest doesn't fly them--anymore than everyone at Delta flies them, or that everyone at Delta flies what you describe. I don't know who at Southwest you're talking to, but it's either someone whose yanking your johnson, or you're just exaggerating for effect. Our average stage length at Southwest has grown considerably in recent years, as we have lots more medium and long-hauls, and the painful TSA experience has put a lot of people off of flying short hops these days, so they're cut waaaay back. You don't see those mega-leg trips anymore like you used to. There's a few out there, but the key word there is "few." You seem to be stuck with a notion of SWA from the 70s and 80s--are you nostalgic?

So you can retire your tired old schtick about everyone at SWA flying 5 legs every day. Tell you what--put it in with your trite and ignorant insults about fuel hedging and aircraft deferrals. You know--in your big box labeled "Crap I Like To Shout Incessantly, But Everyone Else Knows Is BS."

We get it General--you like your job, and can take the positives out of it. Good for you. Guess what? People over here do as well. We have different, and obviously WE believe better, positives that we take out of it. Why is that so hard for you to fathom? And I doubt you'll find anyone else on FI that believes your nonsense that everyone at Delta has the best job in the world while everyone at Southwest is a miserable SOB who hates themselves and secretly wishes they could be like the famous General Lee. I would doubt that even your Delta brethren, as much as they may like what they do, would stand behind you on this one.

Let it go--you'll feel better.

Bubba

 

[i fly boxes]

You guys are sad, Go back and read the topic

 

[Whataburger]

Are you comparing YOUR trips, or the majority of trips out there? The guys I talk to at your airline complain of 15 or more legs on a 4 day trip, which sounds a lot like the Regionals. YOUR trips may be better, you may be more senior as an FO, I don't know. My trips consist of many options on the plane I fly. If you are on a 3 day trip with at least 1 leg per day, the min is 15:45. That doesn't mean EVERY 3 day trip is that way, but that is the MIN. If there is a leg each day of a 4 day, then 21:00, but again not every trip is at MIN. I do 3 day Europe trips that are worth close to 20 hours, and they have 2 legs. That's called efficient. I do 6 day trips that can be worth close to 40 hours (beats your 33 hour 4 day---it's better than 30 in 7 because it is an INTL trip, something only your AT brothers can do right now). We have 12 day trips worth 82 hours, and at MOST you are flying 1 leg a day, to nice resorts in the Marianas, or back and forth from Japan to Honolulu. (which I did a few months ago---easy 9 or 10 hour legs back and forth to HNL from Fukoka, Nagoya, Narita, or Osaka) It's called variety. You can do 1 day turns, or you can fly up to 12 in a row on certain fleets (757/767, A330, 744), and then have 35 days off in a row (with another 12 day at the end of the following month). If you don't like those, you also have a choice of different fleets to fit your needs, with plenty of bases to choose from too.

Not everyone can hold trips like that above, but with huge retirement numbers coming up (something you guys lack, fairly small numbers compared to the legacies, and when one guy leaves from the left seat at your airline, one FO moves up, and one needs to be hired. Not at a legacy. One guy retires, 10 move up, etc). I forcast a bunch of your junior FOs looking around when the legacies start hiring and get their contracts in order.

As far as my OCT schedule goes, the flying has died down a bit compared to the busy Summer, so the lines are worth a little less. I think our average line value on my fleet is 79 hours (that can be bumped up to 87 via white slips, or picking up opentime). There are other ways to add time, like swapping trips, and that happens everyday. You can choose to fly a little, or fly a lot. It depends on when you want to work, and seniority, just like your airline. I personally had a carry over trip from the last month, and 3 Europe 3 days. I swapped one 3 day Europe for a higher time domestic to get some landings and to see the West Coast. So, I have about 86 hours, and I get to fly to places I want to see, with a few landings too, and not too much stress. No 25 min turns. The INTL trips pay more per hour (INTL override), and the per diem is higher too. Next month I have vacation around Thanksgiving, so I will actually be allowed to pick up more time if I want, which means I could have 100 hours of pay, but still have 18 or more days off. (I could fly 4 3 day Europes, and on top of that get paid for a week of vacation)



Bye Bye---General Lee

Fact: Oct line average 95tfp.
Fact: Oct line average 18 days off.

I talk in averages. Not like you. Sure, we have 26tfp 3days and 35tfp 4days. I dont see those. We also have 9tfp turns and 18 tfp 2days.

Define efficient? I see it as most $$/day away from home.

You get paid more per hr but less per month. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You want to see the west coast? what? It looks the same as it did last October? Are you a 12yr old, or have you been hanging round them too much?

Only 86 credit for you? Good thing your wife can carry the load. When all else fails, hitch on to a Texan. They get ya thru the rough spots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

And yet another thread turns into SWA vs DAL.

 

[General Lee]

Fact: Oct line average 95tfp.
Fact: Oct line average 18 days off.

I talk in averages. Not like you. Sure, we have 26tfp 3days and 35tfp 4days. I dont see those. We also have 9tfp turns and 18 tfp 2days.

Define efficient? I see it as most $$/day away from home.

You get paid more per hr but less per month. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You want to see the west coast? what? It looks the same as it did last October? Are you a 12yr old, or have you been hanging round them too much?

Only 86 credit for you? Good thing your wife can carry the load. When all else fails, hitch on to a Texan. They get ya thru the rough spots.

Dude, you fly 737s forever, multiple leg days, 25 min turns, and stagnation for your FOs for decades. We give variety, and I am able to bid up to a larger plane and make more, when you cannot. Apples to oranges. But, what I do see is hundreds of your junior guys looking for something else when the legacies get their contracts done and retirements start. They can see the writing on the wall, stagnation.

So, you may have some great trips, and even though your trips cannot even touch a 6 day worth 40 hours for efficiency, most of your trips are productive, although boring. Sure, you might remember a couple of the routes during the trip, maybe a layover, but most of it is just a blur. If you want to live your flying career like that, go ahead. Most of us don't. If the pay is the same (and it is rapidly becoming that way on our narrowbodies compared to yours, with the widebodies passing you quickly), I would venture most upcoming newhires will want to go to a legacy, and avoid the deal you had with your AT brothers. That is why I post things here about this subject, to allow people to see the differences, and there are many.

So, have a great one on your 35tfp/ 3day to Reno and Omaha, and I'll go the other way across the pond. Have fun!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Dude, you fly 737s forever, multiple leg days, 25 min turns, and stagnation for your FOs for decades.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Real simple question for you General....


You like to crap all over Southwest stagnation, I get it. But which carrier has the potential for more growth going forward?

Delta, who really has NO new growth plans. As you've pointed out, you go around the world. I completely agree with you on this point.

or....

Southwest Airlines, who only goes to 38 states domestically? and we still have growth available to us here in the states... COMBINED with everything international.

We can easily grow cities in the US, combined with.....Alaska, Hawaii, Canada, Mexico, Belize, Costa Rica, Columbia, St Lucia, St Croix, St Thomas, San Juan, Grand Cayman, The Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, Trinidad, Peru, etc, etc.

and then combine the rest of the world with one widebody type.

See the difference? It's night and day.

Your stagnation schick gets zero traction when you look at the complete picture. Sorry.

 

[General Lee]

Red,

Come on man, DL is taking 88 of your 717s. They will go BACK to markets that were given to DCI a decade ago. That means expansion for mainline. Next DL is getting more MD90s, maybe 25 more this year and next. There are plenty of international cities that are ready to come on line when the economies around the World get better, like Guangzhou in China that we have rights for from Narita but haven't re-activated it yet (NWA used to fly there). We won rights to fly more flights to the South Pacific like American Samoa, New Zealand, and Singapore. (Nonstop from US). Australia is now open skies. DL has said in the press that they would be interested in AA's MIA operation to South America if it becomes available. There are still orders for 787s too. The list goes on and on.

How about you guys? Did you add more BWI to CLE flights? What about CMH to BNA?



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Whataburger]

Dude, you fly 737s forever, multiple leg days, 25 min turns, and stagnation for your FOs for decades. We give variety, and I am able to bid up to a larger plane and make more, when you cannot. Apples to oranges. But, what I do see is hundreds of your junior guys looking for something else when the legacies get their contracts done and retirements start. They can see the writing on the wall, stagnation.

So, you may have some great trips, and even though your trips cannot even touch a 6 day worth 40 hours for efficiency, most of your trips are productive, although boring. Sure, you might remember a couple of the routes during the trip, maybe a layover, but most of it is just a blur. If you want to live your flying career like that, go ahead. Most of us don't. If the pay is the same (and it is rapidly becoming that way on our narrowbodies compared to yours, with the widebodies passing you quickly), I would venture most upcoming newhires will want to go to a legacy, and avoid the deal you had with your AT brothers. That is why I post things here about this subject, to allow people to see the differences, and there are many.

So, have a great one on your 35tfp/ 3day to Reno and Omaha, and I'll go the other way across the pond. Have fun!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Stagnation? LOL! Bang-up job of DAL hiring in the last 10 years. Worse than that, how' bout them furloughs? How can someone at an airline that has been a disaster for over a decade point the finger? Bankruptcy, paycuts and furloughs. Nice job! Yall are #1. At least give us the DECADE LONG headstart yall had.

I've been meaning to say this, but your RIGHT! Congrats on nearly getting your widebodys up to our 737 pay. Golf clap.

 

[redflyer65]

Red,

Come on man, DL is taking 88 of your 717s. They will go BACK to markets that were given to DCI a decade ago. That means expansion for mainline. Next DL is getting more MD90s, maybe 25 more this year and next. There are plenty of international cities that are ready to come on line when the economies around the World get better, like Guangzhou in China that we have rights for from Narita but haven't re-activated it yet (NWA used to fly there). We won rights to fly more flights to the South Pacific like American Samoa, New Zealand, and Singapore. (Nonstop from US). Australia is now open skies. DL has said in the press that they would be interested in AA's MIA operation to South America if it becomes available. There are still orders for 787s too. The list goes on and on.

How about you guys? Did you add more BWI to CLE flights? What about CMH to BNA?



Bye Bye---General Lee

That (DL) vs the rest of the World for SW?

Give me a break General.

Game, Set and Match.

Full Steam Ahead to .5% growth going forward. Talk about stagnation.

 

[Scoot 11]

Holy ******************** you guys are losers! Get a friggin lifeMy airline is better than yours...Who gives a ********************!
What is wrong with you?

 

[General Lee]

That (DL) vs the rest of the World for SW?

Give me a break General.

Game, Set and Match.

Full Steam Ahead to .5% growth going forward. Talk about stagnation.

Is that .5% growth for you guys? Giving away 88 717s and replacing them with older 733s and 735s that now can't be retired, but must stay longer, while deferring 30 738s. You yourself can't fly INTL flights for a couple more years due to your RES system and lack of ETOPS. (Besides Caribbean and Mexico, flown by AT). There is nowhere you can go but contiguous 48 for the next couple years. You are stuck. Where again will you expand in the US? You pulled more flights out of PHL and SEA, and cut total flights at ATL. Looks like you are the one "not going anywhere", route wise and seniority wise. I just think potential newhires or interviewees would want to know that.... Oh, and tell me again how taking YOUR 88 717s is not growth? You can't Red, you just can't. Bye.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Holy ******************** you guys are losers! Get a friggin lifeMy airline is better than yours...Who gives a ********************!
What is wrong with you?

The thread got slow...... And it's good for people to know differences.

Bye Bye---General Lee