Question for ASA Pilots

[GearUpLightsIn]

I am assuming that the dispatcher figured you would divert instead of giving you a new alternate. Alternate burn is figuring that you actually make the approach into ATL and then go missed, climb back to altitude and then divert to CHA. Divert fuel is figured as you never leaving ODF to go to ATL at all and instead diverting directly to GSP from your current altitude. Hence, the fuel burn will almost always be less. Sounds like your dispatcher gave you divert bingo fuel instead of amending your alternate.

What then is the point in staying in the hold from 4199lbs of fuel to 3100lbs for if Atlanta is no longer and option? Staying in the hold is just waisting gas.

I understand the reserve and alt fuels are for planning not actual etc., but I do want to be able to go to ATL, shoot an approach, go missed AND make it to my divert. If I go below the 4200lbs I might still have some wiggle room, but not much.

In this scenario I gave the dispatcher's divert airport and bingo fuel was useless. If you find an airport closer to my destination than the original alt airport with ok wx, then I can hang out in the hold a little longer... and that helps.

Unfortunatly, I think some dispatchers point and click a little too much without thinking. I say I am holding in XYZ location and they look for a divert near XYZ The computer gives thema burn from XYZ to new divert plus 45 reserve and that is the number they spit out on the radio.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Yep, dispatcher realized CHA wasn't good anymore, so "go ahead and divert right now to GSP...here's your fuel numbers to GSP, you will have a new release waiting for you to come back to ATL when you get on the ground." Perhaps the "divert right now" wasn't clearly communicated.

Of course, it could just be a dispatcher that doesn't understand what/how/why the numbers are being calculated, and gave you erroneous numbers.

I always thought the best way to keep a safe operation was the captain assumed the dispatcher didn't know what they were doing, and on the flip side, the dispatcher assumed the captain didn't know what they were doing. Hopefully, if the numbers came out equal, each side knew what they were doing...otherwise they both had wrong info

I was the one who called dispatch about CHA. wx was OK there though not as good as predicted. It also was not bad enough to require a new alternate and all the required numbers for a new alternate. I would have had to fly through bad wx if I had to go missed at ATL and then fly to CHA. That was my reason for calling up in the hold. I asked about some diversion options that were in clearer wx.

The dispatcher said "try to hang out until (3100lbs.)"
The radio was busy with everyone else trying to get new game plans going as well, so ended my talk with dispatch and talked with my FO about how off that was. We weren't to 4200lbs yet so we had a minute to deal with it. As I was trying to get back on with the dispatch to tell them that we were going to divert to GSP (@4200lbs) ATC cleared us into ATL and we landed no problem.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Kind of an interesting perspective on it. I kinda do the same. I don't necessarily assume the captain has no idea what he's doing (though there are some I wonder about)...however, I can safely assume that he doesn't have the big picture I have in front of me.

I've discovered that very deliberate language must be used when it comes to alternate amendments and divert burns. I've had pilots argue with me that I was a total moron because the divert burn I gave them to the listed alternate is 1000+ lbs. less than the planned alternate fuel...however, that was not including the missed approach and climb out of that approach. Because of this, I make sure to use thos specific, deliberate words to make sure we are on the same page and no assumptions are made. In this case, if we were communicating via ACARS, it would look something like this:
Whereas, if we were amending the alternate enroute, I would send:

The key here is the fact that "Divert Burn" and "Alternate Fuel" should be considred to be two different things.

Kinda like one of those things that works as it is...but would work better if it were assembled correctly. But, hey, it does work.

Wait, are we actually sharing good information and learning things on FlightInfo today? WTF?

That is good that you make the point to spell it out. Communication is the key here. Also, we as pilot should know the difference (from a FAA legal standpoint) between divert and alternate. You being there for the big picture is part of the point of a dispatcher in the first place.

I was forming a game plan of going towards CAE rather than CHA in the hold when I hit my "comfort fuel" point. Dispatch saying GSP is closer with good wx was better than my plan of CAE, as I would have been waisting gas to go to an airport farther away from ODF. Dispatch's fuel number was pointless.

 

[MaceyHold]

The dispatcher said "try to hang out until (3100lbs.)"
The radio was busy with everyone else trying to get new game plans going as well, so ended my talk with dispatch and talked with my FO about how off that was. We weren't to 4200lbs yet so we had a minute to deal with it. As I was trying to get back on with the dispatch to tell them that we were going to divert to GSP (@4200lbs) ATC cleared us into ATL and we landed no problem.

Well, I certainly wasn't there, so I can't say what was going on...that being said, there are many factors that the dispatcher could've been thinking about when giving that fuel number - one of which is they were just clicking and not thinking -

BUT keep in mind there is also an ATC coordinator in SOC, and they maintain pretty close communication with ATC, and have that big ATC picture as well...perhaps they had just called out that holding was expected to only be a few turns for each aircraft expect 10 minutes (even though your EFC was probably 30+minutes)...with that in mind the dispatcher thought "well, if he gets cleared in, he's not going to divert, so let's hold a bit longer in an effort to avoid the diversion (takes a lot of time and money to divert). Was the alternate required, or was the release planned conservatively with the alternate??? Had the weather changed to the point an alternate was not required anymore??? Just things to think about.

Like I said, very possible it was a point and click/not thinking fuel number too - that's why there is joint responsibility and you both come up with numbers and if they don't match, figure out where the error is, and get it fixed. If the radio gets congested, the PIC has the ultimate responsibility to make whatever decision seems best at the time. Maybe the dispatcher was having a bad day, and missed a calculation - if you see a trend with one person, let somebody know so some additional training can be performed - maybe a fundamental flaw in an individual can be resolved.

It works both ways - I've seen captains and dispatchers that have both had things resolved by uncovering misunderstandings.

 

[fltdspx]

Hahaha, hook, line, and sinker. Point made, eh. You'd be surprised how many line guys live by those rules.
FLTDSPX - that "rule" is in the Comfort Zone chapter - that chapter didn't make it into the Flight Control manuals.
Hope things are going well over in the hangar - BTW - good luck on this weeks matchup of the 7th floor league.

Looks like you won the prize MaceyHold....
so how are things in your neck of the woods ?

 

[fltdspx]

WalterSobchak.....thanks for the help I knew you would see what was up .....

I think the SkyWest vs ASA league would be great

 

[SLUF4]

GearUp,
I've had the same thing happen to me a few times here-I totally understand what you're talking about.

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Well, I certainly wasn't there, so I can't say what was going on...that being said, there are many factors that the dispatcher could've been thinking about when giving that fuel number - one of which is they were just clicking and not thinking -

BUT keep in mind there is also an ATC coordinator in SOC, and they maintain pretty close communication with ATC, and have that big ATC picture as well...perhaps they had just called out that holding was expected to only be a few turns for each aircraft expect 10 minutes (even though your EFC was probably 30+minutes)...with that in mind the dispatcher thought "well, if he gets cleared in, he's not going to divert, so let's hold a bit longer in an effort to avoid the diversion (takes a lot of time and money to divert). Was the alternate required, or was the release planned conservatively with the alternate??? Had the weather changed to the point an alternate was not required anymore??? Just things to think about.

Like I said, very possible it was a point and click/not thinking fuel number too - that's why there is joint responsibility and you both come up with numbers and if they don't match, figure out where the error is, and get it fixed. If the radio gets congested, the PIC has the ultimate responsibility to make whatever decision seems best at the time. Maybe the dispatcher was having a bad day, and missed a calculation - if you see a trend with one person, let somebody know so some additional training can be performed - maybe a fundamental flaw in an individual can be resolved.

It works both ways - I've seen captains and dispatchers that have both had things resolved by uncovering misunderstandings.

Without sounding adversarial (I am not trying to be) as long as you dispatchers are talking about a pilot's comfort fuel in relation to misquoting regs etc... why don't you guys tell me what the point of holding until you only have fuel to get to your divert airport?

No one has justified that reasoning to me yet. Or not very well anyway.

YOu mention big pic with ATC. AS far as holding maybe only being 10 minutes when EFC is 30+ how good are you at getting that info to your crews? Maybe you are good at doing it, but lots of dispatchers aren't

Yeah if we hold a little longer odds might be good at getting in vs diverting, but do you figure into your thoughts that the flight might still have to go elsewhere after they exit the hold or do you always count that flight as making it to the destination as soon as they get out of the hold? It is my responsibility as PIC to keep the flight safe and I do what is necessary to keep it that way. I would not say that it is the dispatcher's fault if I found myself in a bad way after holding til 3100lbs, I can do fuel calcultations. But give me info I can use. What none of you guys will say is that you want us to burn into our reserves by giving us a divert bingo fuel.

If that wasn't true then there would be no difference from having a diversion airport and another alternate. Why would you want to have a flight flying around in wx where they didn't have the fuel to shoot an approach go missed and still fly to an alternate/divert airport AND still have 45mins of reserve? I don't think it is good practice to use your reserve fuel just to "save a lot of time and money". Diverting is a pain in the ass for flight crews as well as you.

That is this pilots view and maybe it will help (I hope) you guys to see what the thought process is on the other end of the radio on days like this.

Sorta related question for the ASA dispatchers:
Does an inbound ACARS message from a flight crew still just show up as atiny orange blinking box on one of your windows on your computer? A window that is probably buried under 6 other windows?

 

[fltdspx]

Without sounding adversarial (I am not trying to be) as long as you dispatchers are talking about a pilot's comfort fuel in relation to misquoting regs etc... why don't you guys tell me what the point of holding until you only have fuel to get to your divert airport?

No one has justified that reasoning to me yet. Or not very well anyway.

YOu mention big pic with ATC. AS far as holding maybe only being 10 minutes when EFC is 30+ how good are you at getting that info to your crews? Maybe you are good at doing it, but lots of dispatchers aren't

Yeah if we hold a little longer odds might be good at getting in vs diverting, but do you figure into your thoughts that the flight might still have to go elsewhere after they exit the hold or do you always count that flight as making it to the destination as soon as they get out of the hold? It is my responsibility as PIC to keep the flight safe and I do what is necessary to keep it that way. I would not say that it is the dispatcher's fault if I found myself in a bad way after holding til 3100lbs, I can do fuel calcultations. But give me info I can use. What none of you guys will say is that you want us to burn into our reserves by giving us a divert bingo fuel.

If that wasn't true then there would be no difference from having a diversion airport and another alternate. Why would you want to have a flight flying around in wx where they didn't have the fuel to shoot an approach go missed and still fly to an alternate/divert airport AND still have 45mins of reserve? I don't think it is good practice to use your reserve fuel just to "save a lot of time and money". Diverting is a pain in the ass for flight crews as well as you.

That is this pilots view and maybe it will help (I hope) you guys to see what the thought process is on the other end of the radio on days like this.

Sorta related question for the ASA dispatchers:
Does an inbound ACARS message from a flight crew still just show up as atiny orange blinking box on one of your windows on your computer? A window that is probably buried under 6 other windows?

While we do have to have a number of applications open in order to do our job.... the dispatcher monitor
is the one tool that stays open on top all the time. it's the application that has all of the flight planning software on it. and yes it's still a flashing red button when we receive a msg.

I can't speak for other dispatchers just as you can't speak for all pilots and I can tell you for me if you can't get into you dest. then I tell my guys/gals to divert. there is no need to stay up and waste fuel. and the burn I give is the burn from the holding fix. that is not based on the approach in... go miss ..and then go to your alt. it's called divert fuel... I don't like any of my flights to divert but face the fact that it does happen from time to time. However after saying all of that there are still no regs that say you can't burn into your Resv.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Oh hell,
Just put the fuel on you want and don't tell anyone!!
Long time told me, he does that on every flight!!!
roflmao
:beer:

Milk it 'til it goes "MMMMOOOOOOOOOO" baby.:beer: